New to the forum/my son is a heroin addict
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Phoenix AZ
Posts: 3
New to the forum/my son is a heroin addict
Hi there
I just found this forum today as I was searching the internet for support groups for families of people with a drug addiction.
My 20 yo son is a heroin addict. He has been using opiates on a regular basis for the last 3-4 yrs and started shooting heroin about 18 months ago.
He was going to college out of town for the last two years, and, although we knew of his addiction, we didn't know the extent of it.
When he first started shooting H he called me, in tears, and told me what he had been doing and asked us to help him.
We got him enrolled in an outpatient program and he started on suboxone.
Being 4 hrs away, he was able to keep a lot of stuff from us and even though we thought he was staying clean, he was actually relapsing quite often.
He would stop taking suboxone so he could get high. He switched from suboxone to methadone about 8 months ago, though, and now it seems like his whole life revolves around getting to the clinic every morning.
Another thing we didnt know was that he was selling pot to fund his addiction. This all came crashing down on him about 2 months ago.
He was arrested for selling pot. 2 felony counts.
His bail was too high for us to bail him out so he spent about a week in jail.
Then they released him bc the prosecutor failed to file a complaint within the allotted time.
He has no idea when (or if) they plan on filing the charges.
Anyway, he moved back in with his dad, initially. That lasted for about a week and then there was a huge blow up and he moved out.
My husband refused to let him move back in with us bc we have 2 younger children and we need to think about their lives and their safety.
So he is living in a sober house now. He has not used H for 2 months but he
was smoking pot on a daily basis up until a month ago. So far he is doing well in the sober house. He is going to meetings and is trying really hard to find a job.
He has several prior misdemeanors on his record and he has been fired from just about every job he's had in the past so......its rather tough to find a job right now.
He doesnt have a car, which complicates matters but Im not buying him another one. Between his dad and I we helped him get two cars but he ran them both into the ground.
So since he has been back in town I have been driving him to fill out applications, go to interviews, etc etc.
He is basically a full time job for me. I dont know if its his past drug use or the methadone or WHAT but he cannot focus on one task for more than about 15 minutes and then he is off on some other thing.
I feel like he is 5 yrs old again, he is THAT much work.
Like I said, I do have two other kids and a husband and this week, I just had to force myself to take a few steps back and let him deal with some of this on his own.
I bought him a bus pass so he can get to/from wherever he needs to go, plus he has a bike too.
He's safe in the sober house so he isnt on the street.... there's a computer and a phone there so he can still do job searches....... oh and I stocked him up on groceries too.
I feel extremely guilty for backing off and not bringing him back here to my house every day but he is wearing me out.
I really REALLY want him to stay sober but I think Im allowing him to be too dependant on me and he is using me to get all the stuff he wants.
He starts to freak out every so often bc he is very afraid of going back to jail and not having his daily dose of methadone. He has anger issues, too, which Im told is from him not being used to dealing with "life" in general bc he's used to being high.
So.... I dont know what to do. Its hard to not be able to fix your child's problems.
Thanks for listening and my apologies for being so long winded.
I just found this forum today as I was searching the internet for support groups for families of people with a drug addiction.
My 20 yo son is a heroin addict. He has been using opiates on a regular basis for the last 3-4 yrs and started shooting heroin about 18 months ago.
He was going to college out of town for the last two years, and, although we knew of his addiction, we didn't know the extent of it.
When he first started shooting H he called me, in tears, and told me what he had been doing and asked us to help him.
We got him enrolled in an outpatient program and he started on suboxone.
Being 4 hrs away, he was able to keep a lot of stuff from us and even though we thought he was staying clean, he was actually relapsing quite often.
He would stop taking suboxone so he could get high. He switched from suboxone to methadone about 8 months ago, though, and now it seems like his whole life revolves around getting to the clinic every morning.
Another thing we didnt know was that he was selling pot to fund his addiction. This all came crashing down on him about 2 months ago.
He was arrested for selling pot. 2 felony counts.
His bail was too high for us to bail him out so he spent about a week in jail.
Then they released him bc the prosecutor failed to file a complaint within the allotted time.
He has no idea when (or if) they plan on filing the charges.
Anyway, he moved back in with his dad, initially. That lasted for about a week and then there was a huge blow up and he moved out.
My husband refused to let him move back in with us bc we have 2 younger children and we need to think about their lives and their safety.
So he is living in a sober house now. He has not used H for 2 months but he
was smoking pot on a daily basis up until a month ago. So far he is doing well in the sober house. He is going to meetings and is trying really hard to find a job.
He has several prior misdemeanors on his record and he has been fired from just about every job he's had in the past so......its rather tough to find a job right now.
He doesnt have a car, which complicates matters but Im not buying him another one. Between his dad and I we helped him get two cars but he ran them both into the ground.
So since he has been back in town I have been driving him to fill out applications, go to interviews, etc etc.
He is basically a full time job for me. I dont know if its his past drug use or the methadone or WHAT but he cannot focus on one task for more than about 15 minutes and then he is off on some other thing.
I feel like he is 5 yrs old again, he is THAT much work.
Like I said, I do have two other kids and a husband and this week, I just had to force myself to take a few steps back and let him deal with some of this on his own.
I bought him a bus pass so he can get to/from wherever he needs to go, plus he has a bike too.
He's safe in the sober house so he isnt on the street.... there's a computer and a phone there so he can still do job searches....... oh and I stocked him up on groceries too.
I feel extremely guilty for backing off and not bringing him back here to my house every day but he is wearing me out.
I really REALLY want him to stay sober but I think Im allowing him to be too dependant on me and he is using me to get all the stuff he wants.
He starts to freak out every so often bc he is very afraid of going back to jail and not having his daily dose of methadone. He has anger issues, too, which Im told is from him not being used to dealing with "life" in general bc he's used to being high.
So.... I dont know what to do. Its hard to not be able to fix your child's problems.
Thanks for listening and my apologies for being so long winded.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,497
Boy, have you come to the right place!
You will find good thoughts, and kind words of wisdom and support here. I found it a month or so ago. My adult son is much like yours, tho he has not done heroin. I can understand most of what you are feeling, tho I am sure that you have a good deal of fear for him and rightly so. It is imperative that he takes care of his self. I am glad that he is getting to meetings, and has a safe place to stay.
He has a lot to learn, in order to take care of his self. He is probably going to do that best if he is not living with you, since his fears may make him lean on you , when he needs to be brave and do things that may be new for him. My kudos to him, for job hunting, getting to meetings, getting off H, and for coming to you for help in the first place. it sounds like he wants to be clean. It may be rough going , but he sounds like he can eventually do it.
I understand you not wanting him to be around the other children. maybe that is not necessary, since he is in a safe place to live.
I think that his anger problems may begin to subside, as he learns to deal with the things he must.
just do the things you feel you have to, but dont do things for him, that he can do, even if it is hard for him.. thats what they are telling me-lol
I am glad that you are here. you will be so glad too.
keep posting, and reading the other threads , there is good stuff here.
chicory
You will find good thoughts, and kind words of wisdom and support here. I found it a month or so ago. My adult son is much like yours, tho he has not done heroin. I can understand most of what you are feeling, tho I am sure that you have a good deal of fear for him and rightly so. It is imperative that he takes care of his self. I am glad that he is getting to meetings, and has a safe place to stay.
He has a lot to learn, in order to take care of his self. He is probably going to do that best if he is not living with you, since his fears may make him lean on you , when he needs to be brave and do things that may be new for him. My kudos to him, for job hunting, getting to meetings, getting off H, and for coming to you for help in the first place. it sounds like he wants to be clean. It may be rough going , but he sounds like he can eventually do it.
I understand you not wanting him to be around the other children. maybe that is not necessary, since he is in a safe place to live.
I think that his anger problems may begin to subside, as he learns to deal with the things he must.
just do the things you feel you have to, but dont do things for him, that he can do, even if it is hard for him.. thats what they are telling me-lol
I am glad that you are here. you will be so glad too.
keep posting, and reading the other threads , there is good stuff here.
chicory
I'm no angel!
Join Date: May 2005
Location: tampa, fl
Posts: 6,728
Welcome, lots of knowledgable Mom's here whom have gone through or are going through what you are. I am sure that they will be posting soon.
All, I can say is that I agree that backing off is a good idea. If he can find his way to his drug dealer, he can find his way to a job interview and so forth.
Enabling him is not the answer, it will only prolong his addiction.
Keep posting, it will help.
All, I can say is that I agree that backing off is a good idea. If he can find his way to his drug dealer, he can find his way to a job interview and so forth.
Enabling him is not the answer, it will only prolong his addiction.
Keep posting, it will help.
Leap of Faith Survivor
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,555
Hi HWGT, and welcome
my daughter's addiction brought me here a few years ago, and I am glad to say after 10 years of using she just celebrated her first year, sober anniversary..
I think you are doing every thing right and your instincts are good...The really heart wrenching part for me was stepping back, letting go and letting her find her way...and knowing that as her mom, I was doing the right thing..it just seemed to go against my parenting instincts..
It took sometime before it felt like the right thing...The guilt, fear, and second - guessing my parenting, took a little while to process...I think while we are trying to do the right thing, we are also in mourning; mourning the loss of what was, who our child used to be...and that makes the process even more challenging..
you are doing all the right things....just try to be gentle with yourself and allow your emotions the time to adjust...there is nothing natural about any of this.
feeling guilty about our kids...not wanting to see our kids suffer...perfectly normal..
the really hard part in all of this was trusting and believing that within her, she had everything she needed to find her way, and that turned out to be my most powerful gift to her...
try and understand that you did not cause it,
you cannot control it,
and it is not your job to fix it...
Naranon is a support group for people who are affected but someone's addiction.www.nar-anon.org this is an excellent support group..
I went to Al-Anon and CoDA and the face to face support was invaluable..
my daughter's addiction brought me here a few years ago, and I am glad to say after 10 years of using she just celebrated her first year, sober anniversary..
I think you are doing every thing right and your instincts are good...The really heart wrenching part for me was stepping back, letting go and letting her find her way...and knowing that as her mom, I was doing the right thing..it just seemed to go against my parenting instincts..
It took sometime before it felt like the right thing...The guilt, fear, and second - guessing my parenting, took a little while to process...I think while we are trying to do the right thing, we are also in mourning; mourning the loss of what was, who our child used to be...and that makes the process even more challenging..
you are doing all the right things....just try to be gentle with yourself and allow your emotions the time to adjust...there is nothing natural about any of this.
feeling guilty about our kids...not wanting to see our kids suffer...perfectly normal..
the really hard part in all of this was trusting and believing that within her, she had everything she needed to find her way, and that turned out to be my most powerful gift to her...
try and understand that you did not cause it,
you cannot control it,
and it is not your job to fix it...
Naranon is a support group for people who are affected but someone's addiction.www.nar-anon.org this is an excellent support group..
I went to Al-Anon and CoDA and the face to face support was invaluable..
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: minneapolis, mn
Posts: 2,762
Welcome to SR!
This surely is the right place for you to hang...when you want words that lead to serenity, understanding, education about your role in your son's addiction and recovery, and support.
You didn't ask, but I would say that you have been doing A LOT already, probably actually should be backing off from that a bit. (sidebar: if he's in a sober house, why do you need to provide groceries?)
I think he needs support, but that's not the same as help in the form of giving him rides and material things. But I understand that you want to help, since he's in a good place.
Regarding the methadone, yes, he will be extremely fearful about getting in a place where that may be cut off from him. It is one of his lifelines right now, and yes, it is more important to him (probably) than anything else. He has become an addict, and he IS dependant on the methadone. That doesn't have to be forever, but it does take awhile to get stable on it.
The 'done may make him dopey, but that will taper off as his body adjusts, and he gets on the right dose.
Hang in there, mom. I wish for you all the very best.
This surely is the right place for you to hang...when you want words that lead to serenity, understanding, education about your role in your son's addiction and recovery, and support.
You didn't ask, but I would say that you have been doing A LOT already, probably actually should be backing off from that a bit. (sidebar: if he's in a sober house, why do you need to provide groceries?)
I think he needs support, but that's not the same as help in the form of giving him rides and material things. But I understand that you want to help, since he's in a good place.
Regarding the methadone, yes, he will be extremely fearful about getting in a place where that may be cut off from him. It is one of his lifelines right now, and yes, it is more important to him (probably) than anything else. He has become an addict, and he IS dependant on the methadone. That doesn't have to be forever, but it does take awhile to get stable on it.
The 'done may make him dopey, but that will taper off as his body adjusts, and he gets on the right dose.
Hang in there, mom. I wish for you all the very best.
get it, give it, grow in it
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calif coast
Posts: 3,167
Kudos for not enabling your son to have his life be any easier to maintain his addiction to Methadone, H and pot.
Do all you can to encourage him to seek long-term inpatient treatment. Does he have health insurance?
H addiction is progressive, cunning and as deadly as you fear.
It often takes multiple attempts at treatment.
My own son went inpatient 3 X. Last time was 1 yr. inpatient followed by 6 mos. outpatient. He was able to stay sober 10 mos. beyond that.
Then this June on his 1st heroin relapse, he died instantly.
I sure wouldn't want this dreadful finality to come to your door. Your son will minimize
the facts of his life and his using. But you see The facts: no attention span, inability to maintain employment or a car, etc.
If you work a program of your own through al-anon, you will better be able to detach and communicate effectively.
Recovery takes a lot more than sobriety, switching drug choice, and getting by.
It has to be an active priority. May your son come to understand this soon.
Do all you can to encourage him to seek long-term inpatient treatment. Does he have health insurance?
H addiction is progressive, cunning and as deadly as you fear.
It often takes multiple attempts at treatment.
My own son went inpatient 3 X. Last time was 1 yr. inpatient followed by 6 mos. outpatient. He was able to stay sober 10 mos. beyond that.
Then this June on his 1st heroin relapse, he died instantly.
I sure wouldn't want this dreadful finality to come to your door. Your son will minimize
the facts of his life and his using. But you see The facts: no attention span, inability to maintain employment or a car, etc.
If you work a program of your own through al-anon, you will better be able to detach and communicate effectively.
Recovery takes a lot more than sobriety, switching drug choice, and getting by.
It has to be an active priority. May your son come to understand this soon.
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: central coast, ca
Posts: 1,652
My daughter is a heroin addict (18 yrs old) She just chose to go to rahb 2 weeks ago today. I feel your pain. Yes, they are like 5 year olds which is why its the right choice for him to be in a sober house. You are not a good rehab for your son and its good you are steeping back, making him take the bus etc. Its totally what you should be doing. Alanon really helps me alot. Keeping your boundaries and some energy for the healthy people in your life (husband and other kids) is so important. Like vampire, addicts can suck you dry if you let them. Glad you found this place..so many great people here who totally ge it!
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Phoenix AZ
Posts: 3
Thank you all so much for sharing your experiences and insight.
Spiritual Seeker, my heart goes out to you for your loss. I hope you have good friends and family for comfort and support.
My son nearly died 18 months ago from OD of methadone and xanax. He was in ICU for a week. He walked out of the hospital and that weekend he started shooting heroin.
I thank God every day that he "did" walk out of the hospital and I pray he can pull himself out of this before it kills him.
Grateful2b I can relate to what you say about the heart wrenching part of stepping back and having to go against your natural parental instincts. Yes, much guilt, fear and second guessing....
Im hoping to learn the skills I need to step back and let him learn to stand on his own but be supportive at the same time.
Its gonna take a little time but Im working on it!
Thats wonderful your daughter celebrated a year of sobriety!
Coffee Drinker..... regarding the groceries =).....the sober house provides breakfast and lunch and the residents are responsible for making their own dinners, except on Sundays.
This is actually the second sober house .... I moved him out of the first one bc it was NOT sober. Even the house mgr was using, plus several of the residents.
And they had a horrible infestation of bed bugs.
My son had more than 100 bed bug bites just on his arms, alone!
Im hoping this new house is better. So far, so good.
Im glad to have found this forum....it really helps to hear from people who have been through the same or similar experiences. Most people look at you like you have 3 heads if you mention the word heroin.
Also, Grateful2b, thanks for the link to NarAnon, Im going to look for a local meeting.
Is it difficult to stand before strangers and talk about this, person to person?
Spiritual Seeker, my heart goes out to you for your loss. I hope you have good friends and family for comfort and support.
My son nearly died 18 months ago from OD of methadone and xanax. He was in ICU for a week. He walked out of the hospital and that weekend he started shooting heroin.
I thank God every day that he "did" walk out of the hospital and I pray he can pull himself out of this before it kills him.
Grateful2b I can relate to what you say about the heart wrenching part of stepping back and having to go against your natural parental instincts. Yes, much guilt, fear and second guessing....
Im hoping to learn the skills I need to step back and let him learn to stand on his own but be supportive at the same time.
Its gonna take a little time but Im working on it!
Thats wonderful your daughter celebrated a year of sobriety!
Coffee Drinker..... regarding the groceries =).....the sober house provides breakfast and lunch and the residents are responsible for making their own dinners, except on Sundays.
This is actually the second sober house .... I moved him out of the first one bc it was NOT sober. Even the house mgr was using, plus several of the residents.
And they had a horrible infestation of bed bugs.
My son had more than 100 bed bug bites just on his arms, alone!
Im hoping this new house is better. So far, so good.
Im glad to have found this forum....it really helps to hear from people who have been through the same or similar experiences. Most people look at you like you have 3 heads if you mention the word heroin.
Also, Grateful2b, thanks for the link to NarAnon, Im going to look for a local meeting.
Is it difficult to stand before strangers and talk about this, person to person?
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Phoenix AZ
Posts: 3
Keepinon....... I hope your daughter does well in rehab. Is she in a residential program? And you hit the nail on the head, yes they can be like vampires and suck the life right out of you!
Wishing you the best and hoping your daughter's time in rehab will help her to get her life back.
Thanks for the words of support, they are greatly appreciated. =)
Wishing you the best and hoping your daughter's time in rehab will help her to get her life back.
Thanks for the words of support, they are greatly appreciated. =)
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: central coast, ca
Posts: 1,652
I love Alanon (no Naranon meeting s in my town, but same thing basically). I find it really easy to talk because every person in that room loves an addict and has been through it just like we have..it was like finding my "peeps'!
Leap of Faith Survivor
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,555
HWGT...I didn't and don't talk to people who: aren't in the program, or haven't been through this or touched in some way by addiction...they just don't understand...people who do are such a wonderful support and comfort even if you have never met them before...no worries...
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: central coast, ca
Posts: 1,652
My daughter is in residential treatment and its up and down..today was a down day, but pretty detached and doing my own thing..watching a movie. She is gonna go thru some hard times and i need to let her w/out getting sucked in. Easier said than done..right!? goota try to keep my recovery and hers seperate..best for both of us!
Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: The Jungle
Posts: 5,435
Hey there....welcome to SR. I hope you find the support and comfort here that I have found. There are so many people who have walked in your shoes and understand what you are dealing with.
My 29 year old son is an addict.....meth is his DOC but he recently announced that he has stepped into the realm of heroin as well. It hurts to write that......
My prayers are with you that you may find peace and with your son that he may find sobriety.
gentle hugs
My 29 year old son is an addict.....meth is his DOC but he recently announced that he has stepped into the realm of heroin as well. It hurts to write that......
My prayers are with you that you may find peace and with your son that he may find sobriety.
gentle hugs
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 355
Hi How!
Another momma here. My daughter is an opiate addict. She has been in an inpatient treatment program for almost 5 months now. She is doing well. But before that....well, it was horrible. I have been in and out of Al-Anon for a few years now, but only in the last few months am I really getting it. And it feels good to know that I am not her savior. Because I was not doing a very good job at it. She is 25 and if I don't let her take charge of her own life, I am afraid she never will. She is perfectly capable of it. I guess one of the big things I have learned is that I have to give her the dignity to figure it out herself.
Anyways, just wanted to welcome you here. You have found a good place to be. Most people on this forum don't know just how many nights they saved me from insanity. One of my fav quotes here is "Let Go, or Be Dragged.
Please keep coming back.
Gotahavfaith
Another momma here. My daughter is an opiate addict. She has been in an inpatient treatment program for almost 5 months now. She is doing well. But before that....well, it was horrible. I have been in and out of Al-Anon for a few years now, but only in the last few months am I really getting it. And it feels good to know that I am not her savior. Because I was not doing a very good job at it. She is 25 and if I don't let her take charge of her own life, I am afraid she never will. She is perfectly capable of it. I guess one of the big things I have learned is that I have to give her the dignity to figure it out herself.
Anyways, just wanted to welcome you here. You have found a good place to be. Most people on this forum don't know just how many nights they saved me from insanity. One of my fav quotes here is "Let Go, or Be Dragged.
Please keep coming back.
Gotahavfaith
Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 52
Hello HWGT. There are lots of good suggestions here. My 21 year old AS has been in inpatient rehab for almost 3 weeks now, and in some twisted way I almost envy him. His life is pretty structured nowdays - he doesn't have to motivate himself or maybe even have to think much right now, unlike those of us whose lives he derailed, who must still try to maintain in the outside world while we deal with the devastating effects of his wrong choices. I plan to start with an Al-anon group soon to help me learn how to detach and shift my focus from him to me. I learned that I could not keep him "safe" from drug use. We made him move back home two years ago when we learned he was living with druggies - it may have slowed him down a little, but he went on using right under our noses - talk about "covert ops." All we did was enable him to use his paycheck on drugs instead of rent, etc. With only a high school education, he could only find low paying jobs, so he never had any cash reserves for things like car repairs, clothes and shoes, basic necessities. With your son, even if he didn't/doesn't have an addiction to support, it would be a daunting task to seek employment without a car, with a checkered job history, and I'm sure that adds to his insecurity and stress, and maybe tempts him to just forget about it and go get high. But every victory he can achieve on his own will give him the self-confidence he needs to learn that he can make his life better, and the goal is for him to become self-sufficient. Detaching won't come automatically to you overnight, just like his wanting to lean on you won't change immediately. Remember, the tortoise won the race in the end. Slow and steady may be the way to go. Good luck from one mom to another.
Leap of Faith Survivor
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,555
HWGT...It was the middle of the night when I posted and I was on my way to bed, but did not want to go without leaving you some words..
What I also wanted to say, was that I am so glad you found SR and this blessed forum...
I was desperate when I came here, codiesick, and exhausted from the rollercoaster ride...
I came here with a lot fear; almost lost my daughter to two cancers, the street and now was terrified I was going to lose her to the bottle..
There was never at any point a guaranteed outcome for my daughter, still isn't, but I learned here the tools to find the peace to live with what is and what may be, and to be standing where I could be the best help to my child without being in the way...oh, and I learned how to use a hula hoop!
I have Friends and Family, in particular, and SR, to thank for helping me find my way on this journey.
Healing prayers for you, your son, and your family.
What I also wanted to say, was that I am so glad you found SR and this blessed forum...
I was desperate when I came here, codiesick, and exhausted from the rollercoaster ride...
I came here with a lot fear; almost lost my daughter to two cancers, the street and now was terrified I was going to lose her to the bottle..
There was never at any point a guaranteed outcome for my daughter, still isn't, but I learned here the tools to find the peace to live with what is and what may be, and to be standing where I could be the best help to my child without being in the way...oh, and I learned how to use a hula hoop!
I have Friends and Family, in particular, and SR, to thank for helping me find my way on this journey.
Healing prayers for you, your son, and your family.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 341
Welcome. My 23 yo son is also a heroin addict. He's been in and out of rehab, had 11 months sober and then started using again. While he lived with me I did all I could to help him, pay for detox, reserve beds in rehab, counsel him, etc...while he said he wanted to stop using. Turns out he's not done using yet and ready to face the reality of the impact his using has on his life and others. Finally I told him he had to go, especially since he rejected going to the rehab he had planned to go to. He lives with his girlfriend now, but still comes back occassionally to get away from the restrictive situation there. I see that he's still not ready to stop, still blaming everyone else for his problems and trying to guilt trip me for telling him to leave. It is hard, but I know I'm not helping him by letting him be here and I made the right decision. It's too hard on me and his younger brother to be part of his drama. Yes addicts are amazingly talented at creating drama and bringing everyone into it. Do not feel guilty about his staying somewhere else. You do have to protect the little ones in your house. Letting go and letting him grow is a learning process.
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