Tealvertigo

Through my addiction, I didn't even realise I was using the people I loved...but I was, because I lied all the time, would only face them when under the influence of my stimulants, and was otherwise cruel and mean to them when not under the influence.

I read the stickied thread by Jon, and while I understand and appreciate that it is available to read, I am not sure if I can make myself agree with the fact that addicts don't actually love the people who try to make them feel better. I admit to using my family to get money to pay for my prescriptions, and to get money for my spending addiction, etc., but I still love them more than myself and they were even a driving factor for my abstinence from what I was previously using.

So, I am between being confused and dumbfounded, because while I certainly did not honor or respect my family, I still loved them more than anything and was not intending to hurt them. I only wanted to feed my own problem and leave them out of it. All the while, I was using their resources, and ignored the guilt I felt as I did so because I thought I was taking care of myself.

I think a lot of addicts probably love their families, but their illusions of self-sufficiency through what they were using and abusing clouded that love.

Maybe I'm thinking too much, or not understanding, or honestly missing something important to the point that was made by the post. So, I ask for any kind of clarification that you guys could provide to me.

I guess the point of this thread isn't to prove my point of whatever it is I want to get across, but rather, to question my belief that addicts are not merely zombies who are dead to the rest of the world. A lot might be, but for those like me, it could have been different.

I feel like a bad person for contesting the sticky, if I am, but it is important to me that I get some other perspectives.

Thank you.

Sunshine2

I prefer your version, simply because it makes me feel better. I am one of the parents who have been treated with cruelty by my AS, told that I am the worst mother ever and it certainly feels as if he doesn't love me and the further I am out of his life, the better for him (his words).

This is pretty much how he has treated me for the majority of his 9 years of addiction, except when he needs something, in which case he is the most charming in the world and I suddenly become the best mother ever lol.

This is the 2nd post in 2 days where I read that the ex-addict never stopped loving their family. Maybe what it is is that an active addict don't care about this love. Maybe to admit to it during their addiction is to feel too much guilt. I do believe that the next high must be more important than anything and everyone else. I don't know, I am one of the lucky ones who have never had to struggle with addiction so I am only guessing.

Understanding what addicts go through and a post like yours have helped me not to take my AS behaviour so personally.

Thank you for posting this.

coffeedrinker

well, as someone who has loved an addict, but is not one herself, i appreciated your post. jon's sticky never seemed to completely ring true to me, but that makes sense doesn't it.

what i think the point of the sticky is, is to drive home the point that we cannot trust someone in active addiction, and that we need to detach, and protect ourselves. it is worded strongly because while in the active phase, that's what it's like.

we friends/family people really need to hear what you have said, and i thank you. what we also need to hear is that we can't get them to get sober, and to look at our own issues, and take care of ourselves.

i spoke on the phone one night with my xabf while he was out of town. he hadn't yet admitted to having relapsed, yet i knew and was heartsick about that, and about him not being truthful with me. i started crying, and he did a complete turnaround. he said "stay strong, honey. i'm coming home. i'll be there soon, it'll be alright." of course he loved me, and of course he wanted to run to me if i was in distress.

he didn't. his addiction was more powerful.

sofacat

".....he didn't. his addiction was more powerful."

Same goes for Me. As the Daughter of an A, I can tell you that there is no doubt that my father loved me so very much, and so did (does) Mr.Sofa.

But that didn't change the fact that they are addicts and alcoholics and would pretty much do anything to protect their disease...even at the cost of a loved one's sanity and well being.

They would both see me cry, depressed, manic, frightened, confused, angry, panicked, withering away to nothing, broke (at their expense), and every other unhealthy mental disposition while they were active in their addiction....and they knew their illness was killing Me...and I was letting it. Didn't change anything.

Now mind you, in one scenario I was a child, the other a "soul mate". Didn't matter....the addiction won EVERY.....SINGLE.....TIME.

And the lying and the mental mind games they played to protect the disease really broke me down. I felt betrayed by the people that meant the most to me. They knew what was happening...but all involved were powerless to stop it. The addiction was more important (in my eyes) to them. And it was killing me.

Mr.Sofa even almost killed our dog one night because he was "jammed" on opiates and gave her the wrong medication. She spent 3 days in intensive care and we almost lost her. Did that make him sober up? Nope. He still chose the pills.

Now the seat that we F&F sit in, and the view from it can be pretty crazy making. We've all had pretty much the same experiences with our "A" s and share the same feelings as a result. John's sticky really hit home for me.

Yes, it was blunt...but it needs to be. This is life or death for most people....no need to beat around the bush about it....and we Codies NEED to hear the brutal truth of it all.
We're enablers....

we feed the addiction and give it strength, power and permission....and we don't even know we're doing it.

I realize that for some "A"s that sticky might be a bit harsh..but the view from your seat and the view from our seat are two very different places.

...and like addicts, we "Codies" need to be confronted and learn to see things for what they really are. It's okay....just keeps it all in perspective.

Have a great day today...and thank you for sharing that.

cece1960

(((Teal)))
I know my son loves me, perhaps more than anyone else in his life. However, right now he is incapable of loving.

To me love is a verb, not a noun. Its the actions behind the words that matter. Love doesn't steal or lie or destroy. My son is no more capable of loving me than he is of loving himself.

So Jon's words ring true to me, and in a way allowed me to stop blaming.

Its not personal...its addiction.

Thank you for taking the time to speak your mind and allow us to really look at our own feelings on the subject

(((Hugs)))

outonalimb

Thanks for posting, Teal.

Your post raises an issue I've often wondered about.

I'm sure that the addict in my life (my exah) would take a bullet to save me without thinking twice. He often told me how much he 'loves me', how much he adores me, how much he needs me.

And yet....

I don't think his feelings can accurately be described as 'love'. I think he needed me. He needed me to believe in him because he didn't believe in himself.
He needed me to continue enabling him. He needed my reassurance, my encouragement, my prayers.

But needing someone and loving them aren't the same thing.

Love implies selflessness.
There is no Selflessness in addiction.

Love doesn't stand by and watch someone suffer. Love...true love...doesn't do things regardless of the harm it will cause.

I dont' think addicts love themselves. And if they can't love themselves, how can they love another?

coffeedrinker

i have had a borrowed book, the road less traveled, by m.scott peck, sitting around for months. just yesterday i picked it up to finish reading it. for some reason, i wasn't "ready". sitting in the dr office yesterday, i read the section on Love. the following in blue, is from wikipedia, but it is in accordance with what is in the book:
Peck considers the nature of love, which he considers the driving force behind spiritual growth. The section mainly attacks a number of misconceptions about love: that romantic love exists (he considers it a very destructive myth), that it is about dependency, that true love is not "falling in love". Instead "true" love is about the extending of one's ego boundaries to include another, and about the spiritual nurturing of another., which in turn nurtures yourself.

oops, did i just go a little ?

sunnygirl68

I used to think that my exah couldnt love me because if you loved someone you wouldnt do all the things he did to cause pain and heartache to his family and friends. I have learned through Nar-Anon that it is NOT a matter of love but of illness. The drugs are all consuming and cloud all non-selfish thoughts.

sojourner

Perhaps the "love" the the active addict experiences is an immature type of love. M. Scott Peck is definitely describing "love" as the extension of oneself for the good of the other. Active addiction is definitely the opposite of that. Enabling by family members is definitely the opposite of that.

I would say that I, the mother, am very important to my AS even in active addiction. My demise would devastate him. But it seems to be very similar to a small child who absolutely adores his/her parent.

At any rate, I know there's still a very strong bond my son feels toward me that addiction has not broken. That's important for me to remember.

Freedom1990

Interesting viewpoint. By the way, I can speak from both sides of the fence, as a recovering codependent, and as a recovering addict/alcoholic.

So basically you had no qualms lying to them then?

Every time I lied, every time I begged for money to pay my bills, I knew exactly what I was doing. I knew deep down inside what I was doing was wrong.

The guilt was so overwhelming that I would just stay loaded as much as possible to blot it out.

outtolunch

Well said.

mooselips

Hi Teal,
People have different emotions, different degrees of addiction.
But I still tend to agree with Jon's viewpoint.

I know my son loves me, he just doesn't have the capability, to express this love when he's in the depth of his addiction.

He will always come first when he's in active addiction.


It's a given.

SlvrMag

That sticky has always bothered me.
I used for 17 years.
I had 2 children during that time.* (I have 3 total, one who was born before my addiction)
When my children were born, I had never felt so much love, REAL love, in my life.
My children were well taken care of. They had all their shots. They were fed, clothed, clean, and healthy. I went to practices and games, school functions, all that good stuff!

Being clean almost 2 years now, I look back and ask myself "Did I love them then?" Yes I did. "Is my love any different/stronger now?" No, it's not.

No 'sticky' is going to tell me I was incapable of loving during my addiction.


* and no, I did not use during pregnancy.

keepinon

I too have wondered if my AD really loves me.. I could never put the people I love thru the kind of hell she has put us through. However I have come to realize that she does love us, actually very much, and tells us so often. She is not a well person and is completely ashamed of what she's doing. Right now nothing will stop her, but I have been able to detach (somewhat!) with love because i know she does love me too. I have also always said that love is an action, a choice we make, but this illness has made me rethink alot of what I thought I knew...very humbling

SlvrMag

An addict is afraid. (my opinion/experience)
Afraid of everything that is going on in their mind.

Feeling so damn guilty of being an addict and of hurting others.
It's not like I thought "F**k everybody, I'm gonna do what I want"
Maybe it is for some, but I'm just telling you my ways.

In my head it was more like "I HATE that I have to lie to my husband about where I've been the past 2 hours, but I HAVE TO get more $h*t for tomorrow or the comedown is gonna hurt"

I felt guilt constantly. Every day. I got really good at putting that guilt 'away' so I could pretend everything was fine. But still, I didn't quit.


Not until I wanted to, for myself.

Chino

My daughter hated herself when she was using just enough to prevent withdrawals, but she was still experiencing an initial high during that period and therefore nothing was genuine. When she hated herself, didn't love herself, how could she love others? The same applies to me on this side of the fence. How can I possibly say I loved, respected, honored others, when I couldn't do the same for myself? I had to have it before I could give it.

All of my relationships have been redefined because I've redefined myself. What I thought was love has been redefined.

outonalimb

Great point, Chino !!

I've been thinking alot about this lately.

For a long time, I thought I was trying to 'help' my exah.

What I was doing, was trying to impose my will for his life on him. How egotistical. And not very 'loving'. Not really.

Why should I have any say in HOW he lives his life? If I can't live with it...if his way of life...his disease...his whatever...makes me unhappy, I'M THE ONE who has to change. Not him.

I'm determined to give him the dignity of living his life however he sees fit.
Drinking and drugs aren't for me. They ARE, however, for him. At least for now. And that's okay. After all, who am I to demand something different?

ElegantlyWasted

I guess the point of this thread isn't to prove my point of whatever it is I want to get across, but rather, to question my belief that addicts are not merely zombies who are dead to the rest of the world. A lot might be, but for those like me, it could have been different. "

My take is that your worring about the tendency of others to judge other people through the lense of stereotyping. I'm at about 10 Months now. And relate very much to your past and present mindset. I believe it to be true that everything does not instantly fall in place as soon as we stop using. Takes time and work. Like any new behavior, it takes time and practice to become automatic. Feeding the beast of addiction involves doing anything possible (lying cheating stealing etc.) to continue a twisted relationship with ones DOC. In my view the Zombie tag doesn't really work; as an active addict, the addict is simply getting what he or she wants at any expense. I've come to realize that the only thing I can really control are my
own thoughts beliefs and actions. I've realized that I'm not perfect and that's ok. There will always be people how dislike/dissagree with me; if my own conscious is clean, sfw. Great post!

Tealvertigo

Wow, I didn't expect all of these responses. I promise I will read through them when I can; I really appreciate the responses and I thank you all for posting. I hope I didn't seem hasty or ranty; it was late and I was between tired and frustrated.

Chino

I just realized what we're all talking about is the difference between immature love and mature love:

"Immature love says: 'I love you because I need you.'
Mature love says: 'I need you because I love you' "

~ Erich Fromm

I feel like I've finally grown up