outtolunch

Maturity is knowing that regardless of our childhoods, we retain responsibility for our own outcomes.

Learn2Live

Thanks IPT. I really needed to read that.

I think you bring home a good point about not contacting her like that. It would be rather cruel perhaps. I think a lot of us forget that addicted and alcoholic people are PEOPLE. I'm not saying you are that way or are mean or anything. What I'm saying is that I think we attach labels to people, especially in response to our own pain from trying to relate with them. And when we have labeled them for so long (and especially the really nasty ones), we forget that they are human beings with REALLY HUGE problems.

We think our problems are BIGGER than theirs. They are not, no matter how well-behaved and responsible WE are.

We forget that OUR hurt is not BIGGER or worse than THEIR hurt. In fact, I believe the opposite is true. We can't just cry and wail and stomp our feet the way we do: "Oh, WHY doesn't he love me like I love him?" and completely ignore the fact that addicted persons are truly sick and are inflicting harm on themselves.

I tell ya', I am addicted to cigarettes and have been since I started at age 13. I began my attempts at quitting at age 17. That was 25 YEARS ago. I still have not been able to stop smoking.

So I know what this woman is talking about when she says she doesn't think you can understand. To her, it appears you can't understand because you had a more healthy upbringing than she did. That may or may not be the true reason you can't understand. Perhaps it was a gentler way for her to say, "You can't understand because you are not addicted." (I don't know if you're addicted to anything or not; I'm just talking).

I'm no expert but if a person is not addicted to anything I don't know how they would be able to understand what an addicted person goes thru. I can't imagine what a person addicted to crack cocaine goes thru. I understand the general feeling of not being able to stop no matter what or how hard you try. But I hear plenty of people say, "If it was worth it to her he would..." but we just can't make blanket statements like that because they are simply uninformed, naive, and UNTRUE. It may very well be "worth it" to him to stop, and he may give forth his best effort many many times, but not ever be able to stop completely.

And the way I see it, she WAS being loving toward you by suggesting that you move on. Of course it doesn't look to a regular observer off the street to be an act of love, but I see it as her love for you.

Because she realizes her limitations regarding this and knows that doesn't make for a good, healthy life for you. People who are addicts DO care and love and have feelings (just as much as the rest of the general population). So maybe you can find comfort in knowing that. I'm sure it doesn't make it any easier. But I know that the addict I am No Contact with loved and cared about me. There is no doubt in my mind. He just can't fix his addiction problem right now, any more than I can fix mine. And some people, lots of people, DIE this way. Because no matter how hard they try, they just can't. My dad is going to die in active alcoholism and I am going to die of my nicotine addiction. God, grant me the serenity, to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

To think that they would or they could change because of US or because they could have a nice relationship with us is just ridiculous. Selfish. And frankly, egotistical.

Thank you IPT. Thank you for bringing me the gift of yourself and what you have been going through so that I could go through these thoughts for myself and come to this place where I am right now.

Thank you for sharing with me.

Learn2Live

A little harsh, perhaps?

outtolunch

I read the same control issues that poster CO, does, not that this should matter one way or another.

Take what we need and leave the rest.

IPT

CO – you are sometime real quick to wield your anti-codie sword and sometimes I think you miss the bigger general personal relationship picture or just focus on the aspects of the post that support your point and ignore the rest. Still there have been posts, many, that have helped me and I am sure many others. I have learned in fact not be so “reactive” which is why I wrote this response and sat on it a while before posting. (L2L hope you don’t mind).

In fact it wasn’t who I thought she “should be”, I didn’t think she “should be” anyone. I wanted her to be the person that she had me believe she was (more on that later). Either she rapidly regressed after the first year or she was just unable to keep up the act. Also, you forgot the part about her not being who she wanted to be. I told her many times that if she was happy with where she was that was fine, but it wasn’t what I wanted. She had many outs but always told me she was working and didn’t like where she was or who she was. We can argue all day about that if she really wanted to be that person she would have been, or taken more concrete steps to get to it. In the end, I don’t think it is quite that simple (well the concrete steps are). It takes a long time to change and a TREMENDOUS amount of work. It was not just me wanting her to be anyone.

Just a simple none drug using person with an unimpaired view of things and still I never told her what she needed. She’s the one that told me she needed to quit drugs, had to come up with a “plan” to quit, had low self-esteem. I simply offered her help and shared the knowledge I gained in life and from NA websites and such to help her attain her goal(better sense of self worth, a healthier lifestyle, to realize that her and only her decisions were shaping the life that she hated so much and it was up to HER to change the actions if she wanted a different result…the same thing we tell ourselves as codies actually). She should have done that work and searching on her own, and I realize that now but she wasn’t ready I guess. Still, I told her she could keep doing the same things if she wanted to, it’s her life to live as she chooses. However, I would need to leave because while she was using and unavailable my needs were not being met and I needed to take care of me. That I deserved to be treated with respect and be with someone I could trust – she agreed, but simply was not capable or willing to do that.

Many times, and undoubtabley I did NOT. No question about it. If I did we’d still be together! Really though she never expressed to me what her expectations were (my guess based on her actions though were that her expectations were just to have someone there when she wanted and to be able to just do what she wanted when she wanted without any worries or need to care about anothers feelings or nurture any kind of romantic relationship). She told me she was a “poor communicator”. She also told me she “didn’t know what she wanted out of life”. It’s kind of hard to meet ones expectations when they don’t even know what they are (or are not honest enough to tell you). I did glean from her that she just wanted me to accept her for who she was. Fair enough, but I couldn’t, and that is why it ended. She even said at one point “I wish I had been more honest with you in the beginning but I was afraid you wouldn’t accept me”. So instead she lied and mislead me…. Who knows what I would have accepted, or what expectations I could have met for her if there had not been so many lies, deception, and breakdowns of communication destroying the foundation of our relationship.

Funny how in your other posts you are quick to say we without medical degrees should not be stepping out of our areas of expertise yet here you are saying my therapist with a PhD and 30+ years of experience is wrong? Talk about an ego…

Know what, I am ego driven on some levels. So is every single human on the planet. I have said this many times through out these forums I do not think I am better than anyone in the world. I am not on a pedestal by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, my therapist was talking to me about just the opposite. That I take my success’s, talents, etc for granted. This I “think” anyone can do the things I have done, accomplish what I have and according to him that is not true. Some people no matter how hard they try do not have the capacity to do some things. Maybe in some of your posts (or certainly someone’s here) it has been pointed out that talking to an addict like an adult is not possible because they are just not capable or functioning on that level.

I know is that she told me she wishes she could be more like me. Admires this that and the other thing. Wishes she didn’t make the same mistakes “over and over again”. She’s the one who put me up on a pedestal if there even is one. Believe me, I am no one special. Just a guy who works hard and is looking for someone the same. Stepford wife? No thanks. Just want someone who is cares about themselves, about the health of our relationship, being sure BOTH of our needs are meet, lives a healthy lifestyle, and enjoys the same activities that I do. Maybe that is too much to ask for…I am still learning myself. Hope to always be until the day I die.

Learn2Live

I didn't mind.

And how bizarre, I could have written pretty much everything you wrote about yourself and the relationship. I would've just change the "she" to "he" and the "her" to "him." Thanks for writing that all out IPT so that I don't have to! LOL But uuuuhhhhhhh......did you have any feedback on any of my comments / observations?

kj3880

it has been pointed out that talking to an addict like an adult is not possible because they are just not capable or functioning on that level.

No. Just, no! I am an addict. And I function as an adult. Please continue to talk to me as a fellow adult. And you know what? Even though I'm an addict, I can do all those "things" you talk about that most people can do. Probably things that even some "normies" cannot do. Some of us addicts are also educated, intelligent, gifted, and talented, you know. And when we work a program of recovery...look out!~

Remember, IPT, You have had your part to play in that relationship, too. The fact that you hung in there for a long time due to her looking the way you want a woman to look is something you might want to look really hard at (again). I thought you were working on that with your therapist?

OC may be reacting to some of the things you said on your Roller Coaster thread:
….probably rooted back to one of my first loves who cheated and lied to me when I was 16 or 17. ... this women presented herself in the perfect physical package for me. Then was able to help fuel, maintain, and engage the fantasy that I created about the relationship. Which on a lot of levels was also what she craved and wanted as well.

...I am used (not trying to be arrogant or conceded here) to meeting women pretty easily and with a little effort being able to have the choice of it I want to pursue it or not. She was one that kept distance (or really became distant after a time) and I think I engaged into the chase..
...
Easier said than done….. I have never had a big problem meeting women, still don’t. I guess on some level I have over the years associated some of my worth with my looks. If I am not with a good looking person what does that say about me or my looks? I'd be lying if I said it doesn't feel good when some guy see's your girlfriend and says "dang, that's your girlfriend? She is hot". Of course there is way more to a person than looks, but lets face it on some level looks count. It's well documented that taller more attractive people get paid more than those less so. Sad, but true.
...
That is a lot of years of conditioning to go and try and change. Additionally, as my therapist pointed out my ex was also like the girlfriend of Narcissus. Apparently she just molded and did whatever he wanted..she had no personality of her own but just appeased him. Of course that made him feel great about himself. In a lot of ways when my ex was around that was exactly what she did…either out of guilt, or that she really didn’t know who she was and wanted to be what I wanted her to be. That was the "high", the drug...the beautiful women who wanted to be exactly what I wanted her to be, except she couldn't do it, it wasn't her even though we both wanted it to be.
...
lets face it, you do not see people like Brad Pit and George Cloney dating people like Rosanne Barr . Have you not ever looked at a couple that seemed mismatched in the appearance and wondered why? Like tend to attract like

Is any of this stuff ringing any bells? How is it going working on this stuff? Women are people, too, and as long as you look for a perfect exension of your fantasy, you'll not see the real person behind the good (or for that matter, not-so-good) body and face.
We've talked about this before, and I am hoping that you are making progress. I know I have to work on my areas of weakness, as well.

Love,
KJ

Learn2Live

I think IPT meant "addict" in the sense of "actively using addict" ???

My experience with active addicted persons has been that they do know exactly what it is you are looking for. They are very keen on the wants and needs and opinions of others. And they do provide a package to meet those wants and needs and share your opinions. They will even do their best to morph themselves into what THEY think YOU want. I have seen this happen so many times and it just breaks my heart that they do this to themselves. It's like a form of "prostitution" (and I don't mean necessarily the sexual definition of prostitution). It's like they do this in expectation to trade with you what you want so that YOU give them what THEY want.

To make it even worse, the more the disease progresses, the more people they have to do this with. It's so difficult for them to juggle all these different packages day after day.

And because of so many experiences with addicted persons and because of where I am in my life on many different levels (financially, emotionally, physically, etc), I could see this so clearly in this last "relationship" of mine with an addicted person. He would even, toward the "end," say things like, "But that wasn't part of the deal" and I would be dumbfounded because I had NO IDEA there was even a deal in the first place.

Unfortunately, these folks (or for that matter, anyone else who morphs themselves to meet other people's wants and expectations) typically can't be relied upon to deliver that package on a regular, honest, non-dramatic basis. Nor can they deliver a complete package. It's just not possible.

But it is so very confusing for those of us who are just trying to have a normal, balanced relationship at a certain level of maturity.

So, yes, we as the other half of the equation may benefit from addressing what those wants and needs and expectations are. And owning our side of the street. But anyone can fulfill those wants and needs in various combinations, and to various extremes, addicted person or not. For me it seems it's more a question of permanency and reliability. The healthier the person, the more permanent and reliable they are. Addicts? Not so much.

Anyway, like IPT said

But does anyone have anything to share about the kinds of messages addicted persons leave when you are trying to go NC?

Learn2Live

The conversation's not bothering me any but I AM starting to wonder if I'm the only one in the world who gets weird Voice Mails from addicted persons from whom they are trying to escape.

IPT

L2L - my thought is that it always comes down to one of two things. They are just wasted and thus not making sense to someone who is clearheaded (my buddy even told me he used to leave himself messages for himself with these "great and profound" thioughts he'd have while high and then the next day wonder what the heck he was talking about...) or they are trying to push or pull a button to get you to engage again.

For some that may be to hurt you and get you to respond in retaliation, or they pull away and draw you too them for the attention they've withdrawn, or they are just reaching out to you because they miss you in their life and crave it back to the way it was.

I am not an addcit so I don't really know. Heck, I am clean and always have been and I am still figuring out what I did myself and why I might have done it. Like many have said, and I have found, better to try and figure out your part (though believe me I spent a LOT of time in my ex's head!! Not so much anymore though). We'll be lucky to figure out ourselves and when it comes down to it we may NEVER know what they did and why. I'll bet sometimes they don't even know. it's more an unconscious action. Maybe if they are lucky some day they will step back and evaluate their choices and actions like we are as we move to trying to be healthier and happier people.

Ago

Did somebody say Stepford wives?

I was actually looking for one....anyone have a lead for me?

(now hush chirruns, this was humor, and a reminder that we, that includes me, shouldn't get so worked up here at SR, I have just seen a number of threads get excitable in the last 24-48 hours, maybe the moon is in the rings of Uranus or something if we were to look for an astrological answer to why things have been unusually excitable here at SR the last 24 hours)

carry on with your regularly scheduled highly excitable thread

Oh yeah

PS For the Pearl of Wisdom

Stop listening to the messages, super simple, there is a reason we say someone is "F$#@ed up" when they get loaded, like my daddy always said, "Son, there's a reason they call it Dope"

Learn2Live

That was hilarious!!!!! Thank you!

Your other explanations make total sense too. Thanks for putting them into perspective for me. So helpful.

Learn2Live

Uh.... I know this sounds stupid but what's a Stepford Wife? And uh.... Was I supposed to know that?

Thanks for the laugh Ago. I needed that. But uh.... I didn't feel any tension on this thread ............................................. but maybe that's because I have been NUMB FOR THE LAST 8 MONTHS!?!?!?

Ago

Sh1t

somebody explain what a Stepford wife is to her while I head for the hills

Learn2Live

The messages aren't BOTHERING me. They are actually somewhat ENTERTAINING. I am just CURIOUS about them and have been WONDERING if anyone else gets weird messages like that and/or any THOUGHTS on what they might mean and/or why these WEIRD people leave them on our cell phones.

hello-kitty

The Stepford Wives (1975)

Ago

No

we don't

not anymore.....goes with being in recovery

However, I do have to say, the last two people that have called me from meetings, one was asking me if I wanted to go get loaded with them...ummm.....doh...that would be no....DON'T YOU REMEMBER WHERE WE MET YOU IDIOT????

and the other was a 4AM frantic plea for immediate sexual gratification from a very very large black gay man who subsequently got a large piece of my mind not that I had much to spare at 4AM but I was quite proud actually of the wit I displayed in my "don't call me after you use you *&^%$*&^%(^&%( moron and No I won't be your sponsor @sschew.

Mighta mentioned the words "non-pleasurable prison rape" in my ensuing diatribe since I get up at 5 AM for work

OK, carry on

Learn2Live

Thanks KitKat.

hello-kitty

I don't know if I get weird messages because I don't listen to messages from my ex. That would feed into my codependency issues. Listening to those messages would violate the boundaries I have set for myself. It would not be healthy for me. It would not build me up. It would not help me become the person I want to become in my life.

I will not grow and become a better happier person if I listen to unhealthy, unhappy messages from unhappy, unhealthy people.

It would be a waste of my time and my brain cells so I just don't go there.

IPT

AH, and KJ - agreed...it has been a long process for sure.

I have grown TREMENDOUSLY in the past 2 months. I am much more aware of me, who I am, what I want, and what I need. My older posts were ridden with me beating myself up for many mistakes I made in this relationship. It always takes two to tango and I am aware of that. I always had been but it was hard for me to see my role. That had changed a while ago(largely due to me finding this place in fact). Still, the responsibility is not always split up 50/50. The big mistake I made really was simply staying when my needs were not being met, period.

I didn't mean disrespect about the addict/child thing at all. In re-reading that I realize I worded that very poorly, sorry. I meant that you can't expect them to act like or make choices a healthy adult would …..simply because at that moment they are not healthy (because the addiction itself has adversely affected their thought processing or choice making). Like you said, even on drugs some people are more capable than others who may not even be using.

It doesn’t make anyone better than another, but it is a fact that there are different levels that we function at in the world. To me I still think most people, myself included are capable of more than they give themselves credit for. Drugs I think all would agree tend to lower the level a given person will function at.