Freedom1990

Pardon me? I got clean/sober for me, and no one else. I walked away from a marriage (to a violent addict/alcoholic) that was killing me just as much as my own addictions. I didn't get sober for my daughter, I didn't get sober for my parents, I didn't get sober for anyone but me because I wanted to live more than die.

I also know, as a recovering codependent and mother to a 31 year old AD that there came a point where I had to walk away in order to save my own sanity.

There are no gold medals for martyrs.

There is absolutely nothing shameful about reaching a point where one can absolutely not live with active addiction/alcoholism in the home.

sailorjohn

We are educated, the 'book learning' kind and the school of hard knocks.
I'm gonna make a guess here that a fair percentage of the posters are more educated on both ends than you are. 100% have more experience dealing with an addict-experience-than you do.

See above, we do understand you. You are addicts, and you do what addicts do. It may be true that addicts aren't 'trying' to hurt us, I'm inclined to believe that they simply don't care if they do or not, they don't care about anything but maintaining the addiction. Little consolation for the codependent that the addict may or may not be ashamed while you're busy dealing with the wreckage.

Regardless? What if the addict is a man and beats his wife or girlfriend while under the influence? What if the addict endangers children? When does it become alright to leave?

BTW, you were extolling the virtues of 'education' to help the folks here deal with the addicts in their lives. I have yet to hear any expert in the field of addiction and codependency suggest that enabling an addict was a good idea. I think you're the one that needs the education here.

Learn2Live

Whoa everybody, let's all calm down. I know these are sensitive subjects but Ashleek has valid feelings and points. Isn't this why we are here? To share our perspectives, hear other peoples' perspectives, and think about them?

If a person or their children are in DANGER from ANYONE, of course they should try to get out and get help for themselves, regardless of whether or not the abuser is alcoholic or addicted. I don't think Ashleek is saying, "Stay under all circumstances." Contrary to popular belief on this website, MANY people DO stay with alcoholics and addicts and are quite content doing so.

What I hear Ashleek saying is that not all people who have alcoholism and addiction are lost causes. Ashleek is a perfect case in point. And so am I, by the way. It is up to each individual to decide just how much they can live with. It is better for EVERYONE involved in such a relationship to treat others with compassion. Just because someone else's behavior hurts you and creates havoc in your life, does not mean you have to be abusive towards them. They are only human. And so are you.

Honestly, no one has a right to jump all over somebody else's $hit just because they act selfishly and insanely and relapse. Neither is it a good idea SailorMan TO jump all over their $hit if they are going to beat the crap out of you.

Alternatively, the best way to ENCOURAGE someone to get help for themselves is to BE encouraging. Which requires patience and compassion. If you don't have it, or can't take the person in your life anymore, then fine, leave but you don't have to jump down their throat and be verbally abusive and throw a hissy fit and get all dramatic on them. That's what Ashleek was saying. Don't know why everyone is so defensive about this.

It does more harm than good and yes, as Ashleek said, YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE ANYONE ELSE IS IN THEIR OWN HEAD. Yes, addiction and alcoholism cause people to act very selfishly, etc. But that does not mean that they don't CARE about their loved ones. Good Lord, they're not robots. They're PEOPLE.

Learn2Live

Hey Devon! Long time no talk! I hope school is going well! Miss hearing from you.

Just want to make a comment about your post. Please try to consider that everybody has to start SOMEWHERE and for SOME reason. Not everyone can find the motivation to get sober FOR THEMSELVES and sometimes have to rely on the love of others, including their family, to push them into it. It doesn't matter how or why you start, as long as you start somewhere, right?

Nice hearing from you again!

ashleek

Thank you, that was my point exactly! I am not saying stay with someone until you lose your mind, or put up with it until it almost kills you. I am saying if you love that person and in this circumstance she has started using again, she isn't beating him or hurting him physically, all I am saying is why in the hell give up so soon. I have delt with addiction my entire life. My father was an addict, my mother was an addict so don't sit there and say I don't have education. Not to mention I am a college student, going into social work, so don't think I don't know my stuff. I was saying that the man in this circumstance needs to educate himself on addiction. Don't come on here and attack me. All I am saying is why give up on her so soon? Why can we not think that on the inside she is crying for help, that she is ashamed that she has relapsed, that she is hurting? I was crying on the inside for someone to save me. And BTW I got clean for me too, not for anyone else. Not for my two year old son or for my wonderful husband, FOR ME! If my husband would have given up on me and left, I would probably be homeless right now not giving a damn about anything but my pills. But he didn't give up, he stood there as I degraded him to make myself feel better as I hated myself. He was THERE and in many ways I think he HELPED save my life from addiction. Everyday he would push just enough "why don't you go get help?" or "If you can't do it alone go check yourself in". My excuse was always, I can't go anywhere I have school until I had that breakdown that day. I was ready to die because I disappointed myself because I couldn't get off drugs. SO, DON'T sit here and tell me I don't have experience because I do. This isn't my first rodeo! All I am saying is, in this situation, with this man and his gf is not to give up so soon. There is hope. But if it gets to the point to where she is abusive or to the point to where he absolutely can't take it anymore then leave. It is still early in this situation. Yeah, the lies hurt and watching her do this to herself hurts but there is nothing we can do but wait for her to hit her bottom and say I need help again. WHAT does that hurt? To sit and wait, be patient with her? Did you all forget what it was like to be an addict? How alone you felt, the disappointment, being ashamed of yourself because we all know better but we do it anyway? I was mostly speaking to the man in this situation but yeah it pissed me off to see all these recovering addicts saying leave her. It is too early to give up, this is a battle my husband and I fight together each and every day. I am so thankful for him, for him to be able to forgive me for what I have done to him. That's a marriage, for better or worse. He upheld his vows when I could careless about them. Because of him not giving up on me and showing me love when I had no love to give back HELPED to save my life!! That is what I am saying. Now how about an apology!

ashleek

All I am saying here is, in this situation, it is so soon to just up and leave her. What good would come out of that. She would keep using and probably get worse. Give her some encouragement, love her when she doesn't love herself. Not to ENABLE or to condone her actions but just be there for her when she is ready to say I'm so sorry I screwed up and I need help.

ashleek

John,

For you to be a recovering addict you are awfully judgemental! I am the most open minded person you will ever meet. So yeah this poor girl just relapsed, it happens. The odds are stacked against us! The bf in this situation needs to educate himself on addiction. You on the other hand need to be a little more open and less judgemental because I don't need negative people in my life. So, if you don't mind, don't ever reply to me again. For you to assume that just because I am only 11 days clean from pills that I don't have any experience with addicts or recovery, you are so far from wrong. I have been on pills, cocaine, crack and a lot of other things. I have delt with my mothers addiction, my fathers addiction and learned a lot from it. So, when I got addicted to pills I thought "oh my god, I vowed to never be like them and I am them". So just imagine how I felt. Next time, don't ASSUME anything about anyone. You don't know my story! Keep your judgemental comments to yourself because that's just what a newly recovering addict needs is another one judging them.

GiveLove

This thread has both been hijacked and has descended into criticism, judgment, bickering and name-calling. There are multiple rules against that on SR so let's take a very deep, deep breath and back away from this thread.

This forum exists to provide experience, strength and hope to the loved ones of substance abusers.

There are other support forums here on SR for recovering addicts to discuss what is fair, and whether they are being treated fairly, and how they can find and maintain recovery and healthy family relationships. This is not the place for those debates.

This is also not an appropriate place for recovering addicts to pass judgment on what loved ones decide to do to protect themselves from the chaos of addiction. Loved ones of substance abusers come here to share thoughts and gather suggestions and support in a safe environment, and it is then up to them to decide whether and when "enough is enough" for them.

Impurrfect

Okay, I'm a recovering addict and a recovering codie. ((Ashlee)) with all due respect, I resent the fact that you are indicating that anyone could have pushed you to want to kill yourself. When I got to that point, it wasn't because of anything someone did...it may have SEEMED that way, but in all honesty, it was because of the way I felt about myself and because I was still had someone there I could manipulate. I NEVER tried to kill myself or even seriously thought about it when I was out on the streets, on my own. I'm not going to say people don't do it, but I will say that it is much more often used and thought of when there is some to use it against.

I have been on both sides of addiction and they're both horrible. A family member of an A has to do what is best for themself...and let the A do what they need to do. Once we start trying to do what we think is best for each other, you end up with a big mess and yes, I do know what I'm talking about.

Support is one thing. But when you are feeling physically and mentally sick because of someone else's actions, then whether it's related to addiction or whatever, you have the right and responsibility to take care of yourself.

Hugs and prayers!

Amy

ashleek

No one pushed me to kill myself. I wanted to kill myself because I was depressed, because I couldn't get off the drugs, because I couldn't stop myself, because I disappointed myself and I had no hope. I was very fragile and so anything anyone said to me out of the way my addict mind would say just go use then I would feel even more guilty and I would want to kill myself. All the stuff going on in my life was killing me and I felt like killing myself. When someone showed disappointment in me you better believe that helped my sick mind say 'no one loves you anymore so go on and end it'. So, in the fragile state that I was in yeah I could have been pushed over the edge at any moment. Have you all not been depressed or suicidal? Not everyone is the same but the state of mind that I was in, the least little thing made me cry and feel worthless.

Impurrfect

(((Ashlee))) - this is a thread for the friends and families of substance abusers. They have a hard enough time trying to figure out what the best thing to do for THEMSELVES is. To have an addict tell them they may be pushing them to suicide is not helping - I'm sorry. You are still very, very new in recovery....things change when you get more time in.

Yes I HAVE been suicidal, and I said that in my post. However, I wasn't when I was on the streets, when no one would have done anything to stop me because, gee, that would have meant I would have had to deal with my own consequences....which means good chance I'd be dead....nah, I just went off and got more dope. I quit when I got tired of jail because my family said they weren't bailing me out.

Every family is different, but for you to come here and repeatedly talk about how you wanted to kill yourself to FAMILIES who are going through hell is getting off topic. You don't know what it's like to put up with an addict. As someone who has been on both sides, hon, it's a whole different ball of wax and you have NO idea how hard it is. You also have no idea how many people are here who HAVE lost their loved ones to suicide and things you are saying can make them go back and think "could I have done something else?" - that is causing more pain, not helping.

I'm said my piece, and I'm done.

Hugs and prayers!

Amy

Morning Glory

I think most of us found our way here with similar feelings.

It took me about a year here to finally understand and learn to set boundaries. I worked through guilt and feeling responsible for my son's life or death. I learned to recognize when my son was blaming me for his problems and addiction. I learned what I could do to help and what I couldn't do to help and found a balance.

I set strong boundaries and worked on the 3 A's

Awareness, Acceptance, Action

I got better in that order and it took time. I learned it didn't help my son at all to drown with him when he wouldn't climb onto the life raft. It was ok for me to save myself without guilt for wanting to stay alive when he wasn't ready to help himself.

I did not cause his addiction. I could not cure him. I could not control his addiction.

I am able to help him from time to time without enabling. Most of the time I can only help myself.

Life is much better now. Don't lose hope.

Chino

When us co-dependents on this side of the fence are fresh to the journey, we have as much self control over our emotions as the addict does theirs. Depending on our personalities, we'll internalize or externalize and react accordingly. No matter what, it's guaranteed to be self destructive. Just like the addict, it's our responsibility to save ourselves.

mvegas11

Anvilhead, thank you for bringing this thread back around. And thank you Morning Glory and Chino for your posts. We got through the weekend and fell back into our normal routine after we had some long talks. But then today everything spiraled! Unfortunately I have not been sleeping well at all. Part of it is with my AGF ( I think that is the right abbreviation), but it is also due to general stress of life and work. Today I woke up at 6:00 and stayed awake to start work at my dinning room table. After about an hour I decided to check her suboxone pill count again. I have been checking it almost everyday since Friday. On Monday she had 24 pills and then today she had 24 pills. That threw up a flag and I checked through her work bad and purse. My last check was to the front compartment of her work bag in which I found an envelope with a zip lock bad wrapped in foil. Within were 20 percocets. It's strange because my first reaction was a calming feeling. Almost like a weight had been lifted. I know some of you will not agree but I ended up showing her what I found. I was calm and just asked her to tell me the truth. She of course freaked out, mainly freaked out because I went through her things. That was the only thing she continued to say. She also said she can't live like this under a microscope and that she was moving out. She later said that she was not using that she is giving them to a friend to sell for extra money because money has been so tight lately for both of us. I of course did not believe her but after about 15 minutes she closed down and decided she wasn't going to talk to me. She packed a bag and left for work. I then talked to her friend, who by the way is her best friend, that she stated was selling them to some people at work. She confirmed that my AGF in fact had approached her about 3 times to sell some percs that she had for money. But what she did say is that it was only a couple of pills those 3 times...never an extreme amount like 20. I could go on and on but long story short is I'm lost as to what to think or even say. She is staying over her friends house tonight so which is a good thing because I need some space and time to think all of this through. It is all so hard to process because I don't know what the truth is anymore or what to believe. It is even harder because I don't care who you are, or how desperate you are for money, how can anyone justify selling drugs let alone someone selling that is an addict. How can they justify having them in their possession when they are an addict? How can they justify attacking me because I've been snooping when all along they have had the drugs they were using in their possession, no matter what the intent was to do with them?
There is a lot more that you guys don't know but I'm sure a lot of you know what I have been going through.
I'm sure some of you will think I'm crazy......I feel crazy. I can't believe the spin that my life and my relationship with my AGF has taken. I feel like I don't even know who I am anymore.
She is an amazing person and I just wish she would see that in herself and stop making bad decisions. I wish she would realize that just being honest with me no matter what would stop the insanity. Actually, I take that back, I wish she would just be honest with herself and then she can understand how to be honest with me.
That a relationship is working together through things to come out stronger on the other side. But I think part of her root cause for using has a lot to do with her inner feelings that she's never good enough no matter what the situation or no matter who the person. Her parents are opposite extremes. Her dad insanely strict and would and continues to put her down no matter how much she accomplishes. Her mother never gave her a motherly role, always played the friend and would smoke up with her friends. She never had a balance with her parents. And I think mainly because of her dad she feels like there is no one out there that can love her and that we are only here to put her down. She has been clean for 8 months (not sure about the last couple of weeks). She had started NA but never opened up to the program. She always made the excuse that she's been in and out of NA since she was in high school and it has never worked. It has only made her more depressed and want to use. For months I have been suggesting that she try one on one therapy but she always had the excuse about the money. But two weeks ago, her suboxone doctor suggested that she could start counceling with his wife if NA is not working for her. So she went on Monday for the first time and after wards couldn't stop talking about the therapist and what they talked about. So this is a great step in hopefully moving forward with her recovery. And I hope she continues moving forward instead of taking steps back.
At this point, I do not know what is going to happen between us. I don't truly know if she used or not. Or if I am ever going to be able to trust her again. But I'm taking my alone time tonight to try to process through everything and determine what's best for me!
Thank you all for listening and posting. I'm sorry my posts are soooooo long but it really helps me to write. It really helps to clear my mind.

URMYEVERYTHING

Wow Vegas!
I say this with the best intentions... and don't read this the wrong way... but your post is even exhausting for me to read.... I can only imagine what you are living with day to day with this girl. I had to step away/detach from this post..... (smile)... as it took me back to those dark days of dealing with my RBF's addiction.

The only solid thing I can say at this point is for you to get involved with Al-Anon or Nar-Anon.

This situation will not get better. She's an addict. They lie and can't be honest with you AT ALL. She is ill. She needs professional help and there isn't anything you can do for her right now. I know, I know... it hurts to see someone like this. I have been through it but I couldn't let myself get entangled in the chaos.

You are not sleeping, you are mentally consumed in her behaviors and the why's.... it's draining you completely. You now have to snoop to collect evidence and when you approach her, you are still disappointed at her response. This is emotional torture.

Please seek support for yourself. (((HUGS)))

tjp613

Sorry to say, mvegas, but her behavior sure looks like she's active.

I wish you the best as you make a decision that's healthiest for you.

bluebelle

I can see where this is really creating a lot of stress in your life. I don't think you're crazy. I know that codependency can drive us to act and feel crazy. I've been through all of that myself. Actually, I'm still going through it. My ABF has been maybe-sober for about 10 months. During his last relapse, I started going crazy, searching everything, etc. You know, I don't think it did either of us any good. I still stress about whether or not he uses, but I try to keep myself from searching through his stuff. This site is a great place to get some sanity. I've also found it helpful to read Codependent No More and Getting Them Sober.

Live

It feels so totally crummy to live in the reality that there is so little REAL trust, honesty and reliability that we feel like we need to hunt for it by snooping or whatever. It was really bad for my self esteem. Further, if we are putting out fires of confusion every minute every day it serves as a smokescreen that makes it harder to see the big picture.
You have explained her and all her justifications. Do you sometimes feel like you have lost yourself in all this? Does sacrificing your peace of mind and peaceful living help either you or her? Does this feel like love anymore? Or more a struggle not to give up?
Often I have thought of giving up as failing or losing...phooey, it is far better when I give up things that are destructive, stressful or otherwise not conducive to my better self and being. Better for me and better for the other person trapped in that tension with me.

hello-kitty

Hi vegas. I encourage you to poke around the sight and read the stickies. They may provide you with some comfort and encouragement as you try to switch your focus from your GFs choices to your choices. I have one word for you - Boundaries. Do you have any at all about what is ok behavior around you and what is not? And what do you do when someone violates your boundaries? How do you enforce them?

What are your values?

I find the below quote exceptionally helpful. It was written by an addict.

mvegas11

Everyone keeps mentioning boundaries. Can anyone give me some help on examples of some boundaries that I could apply to my situation?

I have yet to speak with her but we have planned to talk tomorrow night.
Thank you all!