Learn2Live

Date, don't date, I say go for it. Can't hurt. Nice distraction. Just don't go shackin' up with anybody.

kj3880

I don't know what she's going through. And as far as your own recovery goes, it is bad for you to dwell on her thought process.

If you're curious about it, though, addiction is a very selfish disease. Even in 12-step recovery, it is necessary for the addict to put herself first for the first year at least. She will be encouraged not to deal with the wreckage from her past until she gets to that step (usually takes about two years to get to the amends step 9).

She may do a bit of thinking about it, if she is anything like me (I'm an addict), around her step four inventory. But she will probably be told to write it down and let it go for a while until she gets to step nine. That's needed so that she can focus all her energy on the considerable task of not realizing that she's an addict, that a power greater than us can help, and learning to turn her life over to a Higher Power.

She needs to work on her, not worry about you, or she won't make it. The same goes for you, if you know what I mean? Maybe you need some codie step work?

Love,
KJ

Abundance

oooh IPT.... stay away from those thoughts. It is natural to have these thoughts - but you can control your mind when these come up. There is nothing good that can come out of it - they feed the negative critic that speaks to you.

It's very hard to change your mind up, but literally, you will drive yourself crazy thinking about what she is or was thinking. You could be in the same room with her, and not really know what she is thinking, how could you even remotely come close to knowing right now. Anyway - it doesn't matter, IPT, what she is thinking. She is out of your life... you have moved on..... keep putting that one foot in front of the other. Think back on the sensations you were having during the split months ago.. (the first one, I guess before you got back involved) .... what is different now?

What is the longest amount of time that has gone by where she hasn't crept up? Beat that time ..... every other time!!!!

i.e. .... are you still waking up thinking about her or the "r"? what about going to bed?

IPT

got that covered already, x2 .

I have just been getting out. I would like to meet someone healthy to do active stuff with. I guess you could call that a relationship, but I am not rushing into anything. That is why I got the physical needs covered so that I don't rush into a "relationship" for that. That is a mistake I have made just about everytime and part of what probably got me into this last in too. Not going to do that again.

In retropect I woke up this am and was wondering why I let that relationship go on so long. I totally forgot that I had just started a new venture and a person she was closely associated with was very involved. That was one of the biggest things along the way that fueled my fear of the relationship ending and not just telling her to get lost. I was paralized because of that association as well as my own psychological issues. In fact, once she and him had a fallout it wasn't much longer (2 months actually) that I reached my bottom and ended it. It's strange how these details get lost since it has been such a prolonged thing. What relationship isn't complex though?


--there are more and more hours, even half days where she doesn;t enter my mind at all. In a lot of ways I am finally enjoying all the new and cool things in my life not such a slave to my thoughts. The process is occuring, but it is a slow one that cannot be speed up .

soberat23

i went through a similar thing

IPT

KJ - truth is I do not think she will ever find her way into recovery. There is just too much dysfunction around her. That is in part why I need NC. Her life, her choices, and I am better off not knowing. Like I said before though, there is something healing about it for me to know that she is sick, in pain, or struggling. It helps me with my feelings of rejection or selfworth. I need to remember the fact that it wouldn't matter who or what I am or have to offer. That she is making choices based on her illness or mental state not because of who or what I am.

I do care about her, but at this point that knowledge (which I know I will never have nor will I try and get) is really about my healing...not a codie thought about her or her wellbeing. Does that make sense?

Abundance

DOH! okay then! lol
...........

Interesting re: the business fall out and your bottom. I wouldn't be surprised if that business arrangement with her friend wasn't a catalyst for holding in there as long as you did!

That is wonderful that more and more time is going past where you are not thinking about her or the "r"!

truthhurts

No matter how long we've been recovering, no matter how solid our spiritual ground, we may still feel an overwhelming desire at times to punish, or get even, with another person.

We want revenge.

We want to see the other person hurt the way he or she has hurt us. We want to see life deal that person just rewards. In fact, we would like to help life out.

Those are normal feelings, but we do not have to act on them. These feelings are part of our anger but it's not our job to deal justice.

We can allow ourselves to feel the anger. It is helpful to go one step deeper and let ourselves feel the other feelings - the hurt, the pain, the anguish. But our goal is to release the feelings, and be finished with them.

We can hold the other person accountable. We can hold the other person responsible. But it is not our responsibility to be judge and jury. Actively seeking revenge will not help us. It will block us and hold us back.

Walk away. Stop playing the game. Unhook. Learn your lesson. Thank the other person for having taught you something valuable. And be finished with it. Put it behind, with the lesson intact.

Acceptance helps. So does forgiveness - not the kind that invites that person to use us again, but a forgiveness that releases the other person and sets him or her free to walk a separate path, while releasing our anger and resentments. That sets us free to walk our own path.

Today, I will be as angry as I need to be, with a goal of finishing my business with others. Once I have released my hurt and anger, I will strive for healthy forgiveness - forgiveness with boundaries. I understand that boundaries, coupled with forgiveness and compassion, will move me forward.

-Melanie Beatty

IPT

Well I see it quite differently to say the least. It USED to be about her, getting her back, getting her to treat me with respect, be on time, quit using, leave her family, put me first, holding onto her and the relationship (so my ego and shaky new business didn't collapse). Now it is about working thru what happened. Dealing with my own feelings of anger at myself for accepting that treatment, and her for dispensing it. Coming to grips with the reality of all that happened that I was in denial about. Understanding why I did what I did. It has virtually nothing to do with her physically in the present tense. To be honest now that the business aspect suddenly snapped back into focus I recall EXACTLY why I hung in there many, many times when I wanted out. A HUGE amount of money was at stake.

If you don’t think I am looking in the mirror than you must have missed my post on the roller coaster thread. Here is a quote “Least you all think I am just posting here and not doing some serious self inspection and work out here offline . I am at depths of my being I didn’t even know where in there……well, maybe I knew but never really got into them looked at them like I am now. A lot of what has been said on here helped me get there too.”

As too the need for the similar posts and the same replies… I assume when working the steps you go over and over the same step until you “get it”, no? Same here , just working thru a tough time with a little external support and words of wisdom from those who may have had similar experiences.

kj3880

It doesn't make sense to me, but then I'm not you. I haven't ever found any healing in obsessing about the thoughts of a person I was codie to.

And I've never been encouraged to "work the same step over and over until you "get it." Nope. We pray, write it down to the best of our ability, then we go over it with a sponsor, then we move on to the next step. In fact, in the step working guide, the last paragraph of every step is the "Moving On" section, which tells us why it is important to move on from that particular step. We don't get back to that step until we go all the way through all 12, usually a couple of years and a lot of growth later.

I really think that you would sincerely benefit from working the 12 steps (of course not alone, with a sponsor). You have the type of analytical mind and you like to "write it all down." I encourage you to pray about that, if you pray, or just meditate about it. It has some very different benefits from professional therapists.

When I was very new to recovery, I was big into justifying my actions every time someone pointed out something they noticed about me or my behavior that needed change. Sometimes I see you doing that. Sometimes I still do that. It keeps me stuck when I do that.

Love,
KJ

IPT

Thanks KJ for your thoughts and sharing your experience. I did not know that about working the steps.

With the departure of my exagf from my life I don’t see any point in working the steps. She was the only one I have ever been like that with. There is no one else in my life at all that has anything even close to what she did going on. Well, a few cousins with issues but I have never in the least felt the need to get involved in their life or their decisions. What they did or do has zero impact on my life, it doesn’t matter to me. Makes me sad they make poor choices, or choices that I don’t agree with but that is their issue not mine.

I guess that’s the point really. I have realized SOOO MUCH in the past week from these last two threads. I am not a codie by nature. Yes, I did grow to care deeply about this women. I still do on some level, but I do more about myself, my health, and wellbeing. The fact is once that financial tether was totally disengaged it took me less than 2 months to tell her I’m done. I was free of fears of financial issues that were so imposing on me that I stayed in a place for the wrong reasons. However, being there and involved with her forced me to have to interact with her and directly absorb some of the impact from her choices. As a matter of trying to make the best of a situation I sort of didn’t see a way out of I tried to gain some control. After 4 years with her though there were dysfunctional dynamics established, again way out of the norm for me.
I don’t suspect that I will ever be dealing with co-dependent behavior on my part again. If I do, I sure have better tools and information to deal with it!

URMYEVERYTHING

[QUOTE=IPT;2368784]Well I see it quite differently to say the least. It USED to be about her, getting her back, getting her to treat me with respect, be on time, quit using, leave her family, put me first, holding onto her and the relationship (so my ego and shaky new business didn't collapse). Now it is about working thru what happened. Dealing with my own feelings of anger at myself for accepting that treatment, and her for dispensing it. Coming to grips with the reality of all that happened that I was in denial about. Understanding why I did what I did. It has virtually nothing to do with her physically in the present tense. To be honest now that the business aspect suddenly snapped back into focus I recall EXACTLY why I hung in there many, many times when I wanted out. A HUGE amount of money was at stake.

QUOTE]


IPT, Have you ever looked at these behaviors as YOU wanting to control the situation?

I know you said above about dealing with the anger towards yourself for accepting this type of behavior but what it sounds like to me is that you might be angry at yourself for losing and not being able to control the situation??

Just thought I would throw that spin on your situation.

teke

in my opinion, working the steps is not just for being involved with addiction.
in working them for myself, i found that it is highly probable that anyone working them will be greatly benefited. i think most people have some form of character defects and i guess there are some that don't.

my first time, i was able to release a lot of childhood pains that had haunted me for so many yrs, mostly nothing to do with addiction. for me, working the steps was freedom in a lot of different areas of my life including my past. hope this makes sense.

kj3880

I agree, Teke. I don't think that there are any people that wouldn't benefit from working through the 12 steps. Everyone has character defects they could benefit from working on. After all, the 12 steps are almost identical from AA to NA to ALANON to NARANON. But addicts are often (but not always) suffering from very different defects then codies. With addicts, there is often a lot of selfishness and guilt and wreckage to deal with. With codies, often resentment and denial and anger. But the steps are equally effective for both sets of people.

I am always surprised when I hear a person in this forum saying that they don't see themselves as having codependency, or that it was only related to being in the relationship with their certain addict. That just doesn't seem very logical to me. Addicts don't make us codependent. We have issues of our own, or we would never have engaged with them in the first place, IMO. I've never known anybody in here to just get hooked in the one time. Usually, I see codies, including or even especially me, getting codie in all types of life situations, with all my partners, even the ones who aren't addicts, with my grown children, sibs, coworkers, friends, you name it. Maybe it's just me.

Love,
KJ

IPT

and a good one at that.

That is a part of it. Stupid of me to be angry at myself for accepting that behavior really. The fact is in a sense I was backed into a corner. There is always a "choice", but under the circumstances I sort of didn’t have a choice for a long time. At least I didn't see the choice of “out” as a viable one. I guess the fear of financial loss/struggle didn't outweigh the pain from the relationship. Instead I tried to gain control of it and "make" it work. Well it kept the business going but the relationship was a disaster.

That is where the “losing” and “failure” came from. It was a losing proposition from the get go, trying to control a person and an addiction. Yes, losing doesn't sit well with me and I do like to have some control of things. Heck we need to have control of our lives but I just need to be sure I keep it confined to me and my actions.

At the end of the day I did want to control the situation. Under “normal” circumstances I would have seen it was unhealthy, not possible, a mismatch, and just removed myself from it. That’s what I did within two months of getting the financial freedom. Before that I really didn’t feel I had a choice ( I was too scared to take the financial risk – probably very much those here with children or long term marriages) so I tried to make it work, control it. I guess it is not really fair of me to be angry at myself for that. It was tough place to be! Normally I would never have subjected myself to being lied to and played like that. It is just too painful. That is where the hurt and anger come from now. From dealing with all the lies and manipulation she administered because it is all that she knew too survive. My pain and confusion are in part the repercussion of me staying in place that I knew was not happy for me because I didn’t think I had an out.

Thinking about what KJ has said I realize here I am defending myself . That leads me into what Take said, and yes I will look more at the steps. I have some of Melody Beatty’s books and I can look more at that. I am sure I can learn, and I am also sure that on some level I do have some issues with wanting to be in “control”. I would say my “issue” is probably more about that and commitment then co-dependence. As my therapist said it will be interesting to see what happens in my next “healthy” relationship. Those are the ones I tend to stay in for a while but not be able to commit to. That is where my work needs to really occur. That has been a recurrent theme, one I need to address. This was a first time thing for me and not a pattern I repeat. I trapped myself into it and it brought out the worst in me as I slipped into survival mode.

The sad thing about it all is that over time I really did end up caring a lot for that woman. I loved her actually (in a way).Though at times it pains me too because I wonder how much I really knew her at all. It killed me to see her hurting so much though, and to ultimately find that I was unable to help her really. The pain that she carried and occasionally expressed was all too obvious though. You could see it in her face, in the way she carried herself. 4 years, though nothing compared to what others have invested is a long time to be entwined with another person. Maybe some of what I feel is just pity, maybe she used that against me, but I venture to guess that most RA here will tell us straight up that no matter what was used (consciously or unconsciously) as manipulation that they were hurting deeply inside. It is hard not feel emotion and compassion toward another hurting human being. Hard to let go and watch them slip away….but then again that is really a huge part of what this forum is all about isn’t it?

As I sort thru the wreckage there is a big void left, on many levels .I have learned TONS about myself but you all are right that I probably still have more to learn as well. As much as I have leapt forward there still lingers many emotions. They become less and less angry, and more sympathetic and sorrowful. Things are getting clearer like a fog is lifting, but at the end of the day there is a still a lot of wreckage floating around that I am sure will bounce off of me in the upcoming weeks. There is still much confusion because of her lies and manipulation, because of my own denial. As I have stated many times, it is a twisted mess…. But it is slowly sorting itself out and so am I.

kj3880

Sounds like you are moving from anger to grief, which is a next logical step in the grieving process. When I went through the grief process a few years ago I went through all 5 steps, but sometimes I went back and forth. Like, I started in denial (as everyone does) then I was angry for a while, then moved on to sad, but then something would take me back to anger, or even back into denial (like a phone call from him, or some positve news). I went back and forth for so long. I know now that the reason the final step in grieving (acceptance) was so long in coming in that particular situation was that I used to have occasional hookups with him. It was a big mistake. I've learned now that once I decide to end it with someone, or if they break up with me, to go no contact at least until I've moved on emotionally, and that takes about a year. Lessons learned the hard way!

Love,
KJ

dogged

aww those feelings of finding out everything was a lie, yes its normal to feel the way you do,,but when this would happen to me..i actually found comfort in knowing because it made it all that much easier to move forward..your starting to trust yourself again and validating your own thoughts and feelings which is good..it doesnt even matter if its true or not,,its what you have become to beleive in your rlationship with her..this is what happens as you stay away from them long enough your mind becomes clearer and you start seeing the situation as it really was..the rose colored glasses are starting to come off..though i know its hard,,she didnt do any of this to you..she did it to herself,, she will never have a good relationship with anyone as long as she is using,,and if you hear of her being with someone else..look at it and say..yep she is doing the same thing to that person also..they are committed only to themselves and thier drugs..they cant be committed to anyone . if you sit back and watch long enough you will see the deterioration of her life unfold. she had alot more to lose in this relationship than you.. she had true love with you..she knows she can never achieve that with her lifestyle, nor have stability as she would wish because she cant provide it for herself..she needs others to latch onto to keep her addiction alive.. they just end up with alot of empty feelings of loss, and regrets ..she knows she will never have anyhting TRUE or real in her life unless she changes, but for many they are stunted emotionally and have a hard time being clean long enough to even deal with everyday stresses of life and to grow as a person. you are not losing anything, you are gaining yourself back for someone else down the road who will appreciate all that you have to offer and to love you in the way you deserve.. good luck

IPT

dogged - right on, all of it, thanks for putting it in black and white for me. It helps me to read it, to have it confirmed. I know it all true and some of it (the parts about her loss) make me sad. That’s the “hook” though, feeling bad for her.

Toward the end a friend came to visit her. She wasn’t picking them up but was supposed to meet them at the airport and greet them at like 1AM. This is one, if not her best friend who lived out of state (and only one of two friends outside of her family I knew she even had). She wasn’t using (at least not for many hours because she was with me in my sight the whole night) and sleeping on the couch. I woke her several times so she could go. She kept saying she had time, yada, ya. Then finally she said I’m too tired. I asked her if she was going to call and she said “no”.

In some ways it was good to see. On a small level it helped me not take the things she did so personally…that is just who she was. Though, it real easy to lose sight of that when we are trying to protect our fragile egos and not being treated in a respectful manner. Thanks for reminding me.