cece1960

Lets try and be careful to stay on track, and refrain from personal attack.

There are 40+ replies on this thread, many are supportive, some ask difficult questions.

Lets try and be tolerant of what each of us feel is important to the conversation, even if we don't all agree.

Thanks All

Chino

The very act of being in a recovery room implies wanting help along with understanding and compassion. All three things are being given here and none cancel each other out.

My statement was to cessy and I'm pretty sure she can speak for herself, let me know if she wants help this time or not

winnie12

Dear ladies - i read through all of these and wonder if sometimes when we're writing online it doesnt come across the right way. Some here are the compassionate type who feel your pain and others are the coaches who've been playing the game a long time and yelling at you to get out there and fight - each serves a purpose and each can be learned from.

I have a sister and a SIL - I love them both dearly and they would both do anything in the world for me. When i talk to my Sister about problems she gives me the straight line everytime - she's tough and she's not afraid to kick my but or tell me the cold hard truth when she knows i need to hear it. My SIL is more compassionate and will listen to me and emphatize with my problems - she is gentle in her words. Things is i need both of these ladies - the tough one and the gentle one and i wouldnt be the same without BOTH of their influences. if i had just one i would be off-balanced so i think HP for giving me the soft love and the hard love.

I truly believe in my heart that all who post here are doing it in love - its just in their way of sharing love.

Freedom1990

That makes sense, Winnie.

I'm passionate to a fault in many areas. I have no doubt that can be misconstrued as harsh or angry; it wouldn't be the first time, and certainly not the last.

My first two sponsors were polar opposites. One was a feisty little old lady already in her 70's, and she was tough as nails with me. The other was very soft-spoken, gentle, and she was the one who was in the delivery room with me when I had my youngest daughter since my folks had cut all contact with me.

I learned from both.

Suspicious

I think the thing that gets forgotten or overlooked is that we are also 'putting ourselves in the position to be ready to walk away'

Some of us are working on our emotions, some on finances, some on not having anyplace to go, some are trying to make the addict leave them and some are still just working on themselves. And I am sure there are a hundred other little reasons why some bystanders are still in the situation.

For most of us we will eventually hit our bottom or whatever it takes to make us leave. I know that there will be a few who dont and they will continue on with their codie relationship till until a force stronger than them changes it either thru jail, death or some other horrible outcome. I tend to think that 'we' dont fall into that category... it is just that 'we' are at the beginning of our journey but we are taking steps every day even if they are really tiny ones.

Chino

As long as we're spilling our guts here... I have limitations and I not only do I accept them, I embrace them.

When my RAD was in rehab, someone asked the counselor what are we supposed to do when our A's start venting, without crossing the codie line and trying to fix things? She said to ask them if they need suggestions or just an ear. I told her I can only tolerate about 1 minute of rant/vent before I hit the wall. She told me to be honest about it and I have been. I told my daughter I'm not the person to rant/vent to and it's not personal, it's just me.

It's made a world of difference for my serenity and why I need to know if cessy is asking for help or not. I don't know if this topic was originally a rant/vent but good Lord it turned into one and I'm fighting the urge to hightail it out of here

ItsmeAlice

Cessy,
I have been reading along this thread and the other and hoping you are getting the support and insight you need.

I'm angry along with you in the way that everyone gets overwhelmed with life. Everyone gets tired and angry sometimes over keeping a home, working for a living, caring for loved ones, and trying to find time for themselves etc, etc. There have been decades of articles in every magazine at the checkout line about having it all and staying sane.

What the "normies" for a lack of a better word don't have to juggle is the emtional turbulence of living in the storm of addiction.

I feel the same anger so often as well when I step back and see my ABF progressing through his addiction whilst I progress in my recovery and I know in the end we will be too far apart to ever come back together again. I'm fixing me, why can't he fix himself. It is out of my hands, and it will be what it will be. It just doesn't make me less mad about it.

You are not alone.

I wonder if the codependent elements of your work life are fueling this, otherwise relatable, anger.

You work in one job where you have consequences (1 hour for lunch for example) that someone with addiction near you does not have. You may be feeling that you are taking his consequence given that he is "talking the talk but not walking the walking." Letting the addict take their on consequences is high on the codie recovery to-do list.

Additionally, you work as a bartender, essentially, enabling a drinker coming from an AA meeting. If this same guy stopped by your house on the way home from AA, you wouldn't offer him a beer in a million years. As codies, we have to stop enabling the addict to detach and let them fall.

I think if I were in those circumstances, I would feel my recovery was being challenged. How can I stop being codependent if I'm being paid to do it every day. I would have to really separate my home life from my work life in that case. I would have to have a real barrier set up emotionally to not bring my feelings over my addict at home to the addicts I meet each day. And I'm learning they are everywhere. I never really saw them before, I have to say.

I hope you are feeling little bit better and can start anew tomorrow.

Peace.

Alice

Suspicious

Ya know... I keep waiting for me to get like this!!! But Nooooooo, my house is just as big a mess as my head.

cessy68

Holy moly, this thread got a bit heated. I went on a couple times today, and breifly read through, until now, I just got the 'time' to respond.

I see a couple of things going on.... my original attempt to 'explain' what I was feeling, and those who responded to that.

And my cry out for some kind of 'understanding' so that I don't feel like a dang nut job, grasping my lap top for dear life, writing to others in the world, that just maybe, maybe are in the same position, and can talk to me about my 'feelings' and/or those who have walked through this phase, and can kinda coach me outof my 'box' like a frightend puppy... being baited to show itself and all its beauty.

I went to my son's choir show tonight..... as I looked around the room, I wondered how many other people are living in pain at this very moment. Who were able to sit back and enjoy their child, yet have a whole bunch of crap going on inside of them. We never quite know what goes on with our fellow neighbors, and or loved ones.

At least all of us here have a common denominator... and we are all here because of the same thing.... either 'we have been there done that'.... OR 'we are here, doing it'. Either way, its just one side of the fence or the other...

Nothing really divides us, unless we allow ourselves to think that we are different, or our addicts are different, or we are better than one another, based on how 'fast we learned our lessons of recovery'.

My biggest problem is that I feel that I should 'get it' by now. I feel that I'm a bigger woman, that to be so sophmoric- carrying around all this anger.

I'm not angry at the world, I love people. I love my abf. However, when you have the push/pull of trying to let go of someone you love, it's a heck of a lot easier to be angry at the circumstance - than it is to break down and feel the depth of your sorrow.

I pray that I will be sitting in peace someday, and look at people in my current position with empathy-- rather than in disgust. I feel sometimes, when we 'heal'- there is a part of our soul that remains scarred. I believe that at times, this makes people who have moved out of the position I'm in, to be a bit forthright-- and want to shake me up.

I want to shake me up.

I want help.

I want to walk away..... and live in peace.

I don't know how.

That is why I'm here.

I look CONSTANTLY at my 'join date' here on SR. And I think to myself, "hey Cess, when the heck are you going to 'get it'.... how many people here have been and gone in the 8 months you've been here.... they got the picture quick!! Your are a dumb ***!!!"

Thats when I reach out more-- write more-- get more honest..... and essentially beg for others out there to show me the way.

The only thing that I ask for is SOME validation. Is that wrong? To want to be shown the light-- with some kind of 'it's ok' attached?

Ms. Magoo made it clear, how much pain and hurt and concequent anger was attached to what she was going through..... god how I needed to hear that. Not because I want a pity party here-- but to hear someone else cry out and KNOW that this is a normal way to feel in such an isolated arena.

In regard to what freedom said-- I don't know what to be to the abf.... the po'd partner, or the loving supportive partner-- to me, neither side is productive.

Winnie said some things that made sense, sometimes it is good to get a good kick in the butt, yet have others show you compassion.

It's all a learning curve.

Anvil-- thankyou for sharing what you went through-- when you were in pain, during that time, didn't you want someone to tell you it was OK...?? That you were going to be alright? That you WOULD find your way?


I think that there is so much buried hurt inside of most of us, that it can be hard to deliver a well intended message, without SOME of our old pain comming through. It's simply called transference.

Thankyou all for helping, writing, the time.............
I don't know if my rambeling made any sense again.....
Love,
Cesy

meditation

As a recovering opiate addict myself, I truly have a hard time trying to explain addiction. I was an addict for 4 years and I can't explain it because it does not make a bit of sense. So If as an addict not being able to make sense of addiction I truly can appreciate how a family member of an addict would have issues trying to understand and cope. I have tried to wrap my head around why I used, why I could not or did not want to stop why why why and finally why the heck did it happen to me?

I would not wish addiciton on my worst enemy or wish what my family has endured coping with my addiction on anyone either. I have about 8 months clean and it is one roller coaster still. Today I was so angry about all the lack of control in my life, working hard to rebuild the trust but it seems like smashing against a brick wall and I don't even know that I am frustrated and angry just all of a sudden something will bring it up and OH I have to deal with this. Maybe it's normal for the addict and the families of addicts to experience this emotion as part of healing. I know for me that if I don't express anger it becomes depression and I would rather get it out than stuff it down. Cause then I don't really have good touch with my emotions. I don't think Cessy is wrong to vent her emotions, it probably is healthier to do that than to stuff it and I know I have to do that. Addiciton and the aftermath is a war zone. But we can all help each other thru it. That to me is why SR is so valuable.

GiveLove

Hi Cessy,

Years ago, when I first started in my recovery from ABF's madness, I had to be very careful around my support network. I was fortunate to find people (al-anon, naranon, here) who had walked my road and understood what I was facing.

I found that if I talked about my rage, or sadness, or frustration, and did NOT clearly say "I just need you to listen; I don't need you to solve my problem," I would get a lot of helpful, strident, and almost completely unwelcome advice on how to stop hurting by doing X, Y, or Z.

At the time, it was irritating to me that I had to be so obvious about what I wanted from them. Now, in hindsight, I think about those fierce, idea-laden women and feel nothing but gratitude. I know I wasn't ready yet for the gifts they tried to offer me -- perspective, courage, righteous anger, and action -- but I also know that without those gifts, I would have suffered far longer than I did. It might have taken me years to see the way clear of my situation, or I might still be there today.

They were simply planting seeds, and one day, when they were ready, those seeds sprouted.

The words you don't want to hear today? Maybe just accept them in the spirit they're offered (which here is always, always with love), and tuck them away for now.

You'll be amazed at what they grow into later.

Hugs and more hugs to you. I know how much this all hurts.

Callie

Wow, GREAT and heated thread. My 2 cents below and I'm TOTALLY not picking on anyone. Brutally honest post below - I DO NOT want to start an argument, but am wanting responses from harda$$ed codies....

ANVIL how to deal with living with another not-recovering-as-quickly-as-i'd-like addict, named Hank. cuz i was starting to get nutty, i was power phoning, pacing, watching the bank account on line like a 7 part mini series, angry, hostile, and so focused on HIM i couldn't spell my own name correctly if you asked me.

It is very clear to me that you love Hank deeply. It is very evident that you're proud of BOTH of your sobrieties..... I've wanted to ask you this many times, but have not because I didn't want to step on toes...

What would you do if Hank relapsed. What if he relapsed hard and were off the deepend. What if he showed no signs of return - did not WANT to return? This was the life that he wanted, but he does not have it in him to sustain this life and all that it entails. What if he said he didnt' care if he lived or died. What if he said you were everything, his lifeline...and he can't live without you, but can't do sobriety. What if he threatened suicide and had NO apparant reason for living. What if you two had kids together who desperately loved their daddy and didn't understand. How can you make them understand that their daddy loves them, but he's 'sick'. How can you make them understand that daddy is dead at his own hands. How do you handle other kids taunting your kids because their daddy is a 'junky' and died from a heroin overdose....purposely.

Would you leave the house that you've both worked so hard on to restore? What about Bucky and Della, who would get who? Would you really leave EITHER of them to a drug addict?

What about those nights spent watching the sunset on that beautiful view you have out your backyard? Could you really step out onto the deck that he worked so hard on and NOT think of him or those sunsets? Could you walk out there with another man? Could you not think of Hank or who he was or what he meant to you --- pre addiction? Could you really leave him behind or "let go and let God". 'Cause you certainly didn't "cause it, you can't control it, you can't cure it." "let go or be dragged." Would you repeatedly say the Serenity Prayer? Could you detach with no contact if he continued in his addiction? Could you really turn him over to his HP and not take him back? What if he cared less about his HP, but you believed so strongly?

What if Hank was suicidal or what if he wanted to just be a junkie because he can't do the real life. What if his mom said 'honey, come live with me' and was his biggest enabler?

Would you really truely be able to leave the fallen behind? You two seem to be a perfect match. Could you really leave him to his own demise?

I ask this because you've been a HUGE help to me, but your life is just about perfect right now. What if that world was shattered because of a relapse? That is the life that so many of us here have had and are holding onto pre-addiction.

I'm TOTALLY not trying to pick on you Anvil. Again, you've been a HUGE help to me. But one thing that I've learned is that my AH is sick. He's hardcore to the bone. He's just not dabbled. He's done every damn drug that exists. Who the fu#$ knew you could SHOOT phentenol (see - don't even know what it is or how to spell it) patches or chew them up or EAT them? DISGUSTING!!. He's been through 4 - yes FOUR detoxes and he still doesn't flippin' get it. We've been together 22 years. I'm only 38.

He knows what kind of movies I like to watch, he knows what I like on my cheeseburgers, he knows what candy I like with my popcorn, he knows that I HAVE to have chips with my pizza, he knows what I want ON my pizza. He knows that if he's going to buy me clothes or jewlery to not even bother with it himself call my sis' because we have the SAME taste, he knows what my subtle stares mean when nobody else does. He knows when I'm happy or sad or at my wits end. He knows how I like my back rubbed, he knows my deepest darkest secrets. At one time he was my best friend. He knows my mom can be moody, my dad annoying, my sister can be very proper. My nephews know him as Uncle AH. He knows when to step out of the way and when to take charge. He knows when I've had my limit and he'll take the reigns. He knows my frustrations and my expectations, my goals and my dreams.

SOOOOO - how do you kick that to the curb because he's an addict? Obviously I can't LIVE with him and be sane when he's an addict, but how do you let go of 22 years of history? Believe as MM said, I'd love to know the secret, but I haven't found it yet.

One thing that I've learned is that as my AH gets sicker, so do I. No counseling, no anti-d no NOTHING can fix it. Just today I was thinking that for me to get better with an active addict is like expecting a crack ***** to get well in a crack house. 99% of the time it can't be done. Freedom had eluded to this in Cass's post - you can't get well when LIVING with an active addict. Long story and one I'm not ready to divulge just yet.

------------------------

I know I'll prob get hammered, but many of us feel this way here on SR. Love you guys totally didn't want to single anyone out. It's just that we're all codies. When we're summoned we can give the BEST advice, but when we're living it....different story.

Again - I've been working ALL day - NOT trying to start anything with ANYONE - especially you Anvil. I love ya. I know you've been on both sides of the fence. I guess this thread has been heated and brutally honest and I thought I'd chime in too.

Callie

Don't even get me started on this. I am OBSESSED with a clean house. I'm convinced it's because AH is the polar opposite. If he could meet me in the middle we'd be fine. What he lacks, I overcompensate for. Creates obsession. Complete Codie!

ItsmeAlice

Callie,
I get where you're coming from, I do. I am with my ABF 10+ years with his drinking being worse at times than now. Our lives are so enmeshed, finances, pets, memories, photos. How do you separate a life so intertwined with another that they almost cease to exist without the other.

I have considered this daily since starting here.

With surgical precision I can separate myself from him. It's taking time and patience, but I have to accept I may not be able to do it without great pain to both of us. The guilt of leaving him behind to fight his addiction alone and his heartache over losing me and the dogs, cats, and horses he does truly care for.

I have hoped to come up with a way to live separate lives but remain in proximity to each other and stay in contact. That would give me the distance I need from him to remain healthy and out of his drama but not give up the hope that I could help him if he chose to seek recovery.

All that is left aside from those two options for me is accepting that this is my life. The frustration over the lack of intimacy and romantic connection with him, the anger over being left in the dust when the beer beckons, and the hurt when he becomes agitated after drinking and acts like a real jerk. That would be my life. Warts and all with more warts than all.

Things have improved with the tools I've learned and the more I learn the better they may stay, but the last piece of the puzzle, his sobriety and desire to live life with me, will always be missing.

I think it was Anvil who said that in recovery you learn to always be ready to walk away if nothing changes. I suspect if she faced a relapse in Hank, she would be where we are and have to start this process over, only she would have an old dusty box of tools to pick up again.

Alice

Freedom1990

No MrsMagoo, I was not the PO'd significant other. I was the dying significant other, all 109 emaciated pounds of me on a 6' frame, and pregnant.

To try and relate all the events of that significant day in my life would not do them justice, nor would you understand because it was my own personal spiritual experience...an intervention from God.

God did for me what I could not do for myself when I finally said loud and clear in my head to him that I was tired, so very tired, too tired to go on living. I couldn't live with the pain anymore.

Today I recognize that was my first true surrender to God.

Through no actions of my own, I was in rehab a few short hours later.

There I started my journey in recovery from addictions/alcoholism.

When I got out of rehab 30 days later, I never went back home to him because I knew I would die from codependency, whether he beat me to death, or the pain became too great from living with active addiction again.

rahsue

I'm so sorry that your pain and anger is blinding you to what you know needs to be done.
I hope you can find the strength.

good luck

cessy68

[QUOTE=Callie;2234352]ANVIL how to deal with living with another not-recovering-as-quickly-as-i'd-like addict, named Hank. cuz i was starting to get nutty, i was power phoning, pacing, watching the bank account on line like a 7 part mini series, angry, hostile, and so focused on HIM i couldn't spell my own name correctly if you asked me.

It is very clear to me that you love Hank deeply. It is very evident that you're proud of BOTH of your sobrieties..... I've wanted to ask you this many times, but have not because I didn't want to step on toes...

What would you do if Hank relapsed. What if he relapsed hard and were off the deepend. What if he showed no signs of return - did not WANT to return? This was the life that he wanted, but he does not have it in him to sustain this life and all that it entails. What if he said he didnt' care if he lived or died. What if he said you were everything, his lifeline...and he can't live without you, but can't do sobriety. What if he threatened suicide and had NO apparant reason for living. What if you two had kids together who desperately loved their daddy and didn't understand. How can you make them understand that their daddy loves them, but he's 'sick'. How can you make them understand that daddy is dead at his own hands. How do you handle other kids taunting your kids because their daddy is a 'junky' and died from a heroin overdose....purposely.

Would you leave the house that you've both worked so hard on to restore? What about Bucky and Della, who would get who? Would you really leave EITHER of them to a drug addict?

What about those nights spent watching the sunset on that beautiful view you have out your backyard? Could you really step out onto the deck that he worked so hard on and NOT think of him or those sunsets? Could you walk out there with another man? Could you not think of Hank or who he was or what he meant to you --- pre addiction? Could you really leave him behind or "let go and let God". 'Cause you certainly didn't "cause it, you can't control it, you can't cure it." "let go or be dragged." Would you repeatedly say the Serenity Prayer? Could you detach with no contact if he continued in his addiction? Could you really turn him over to his HP and not take him back? What if he cared less about his HP, but you believed so strongly?

SOOOOO - how do you kick that to the curb because he's an addict? Obviously I can't LIVE with him and be sane when he's an addict, but how do you let go of 22 years of history? Believe as MM said, I'd love to know the secret, but I haven't found it yet.


I know I'll prob get hammered, but many of us feel this way here on SR. Love you guys totally didn't want to single anyone out. It's just that we're all codies. When we're summoned we can give the BEST advice, but when we're living it....different story.

QUOTE]

These are questions we all ask Callie.

I'm glad this thread brought out some honest hard to ask questions........
and for the record I don't mind answering ANYONES questions honestly.

I hope anvil answers this--- so she could shed light on what she would do in our shoes.............

It's easy to 'say' what you would do........ when your heart is not the invested one.

cessy68

This is why I ask for acceptance, and valiation..... sometime we have to get to this depth of despair before we finally see the light...........

I don't want to be in that position, perhaps if we all shared honestly, and openly, we could better understand one another.

Love,
cess

greeteachday

There were a few comments here about people being afraind to go to Alanon or Naranon for fear that it would be live people telling you what to do. My experience after over 3 years of meetings is the exact opposite. Meetings are about sharing experience strength and hope...In my Naranon group we ask that memebers try to take the focus off the addicted love one and talk about themselves...how they feel, what they are going through. And we listen...just listen and sometimes someone will share a similar story and what worked for them. We caution people about using words like You have to, you need to, why don't you, you should. Because we have found that when we use those words, we are in codie relapse. We shifted our focus from controlling our addict to controlling other codies.

One of the greatest lessons I have learned in recovery is that if I say something once, I am offering my opinion...any more than once, I am trying to control the person or situation.

I just wanted to throw that in because I don't want people to fear meetings. Everyone here shares out of love and concern, as others have said. The written word makes it hard to "hear" tone and compassion sometimes. But it is there and in meetings there is nothing but love and compassion and tolerance and serenity. If someone wants advice, they can ask after the meeting or use the phone list or get a sponsor.

Cessy...I'm sorry, I didn't mean to get off topic. I have not walked in your shoes so I don't understand all of what you are feeling, but I certainly do understand that feeling of wanting to stop the insanity and feeling so angry and out of control. I hope posting here and thinking about some of the shares here offers you some peace. Be kind to yourself...8 months trying to work recovery is just a start...You have come a long way, sweetie, but we can only do what we are ready to do in our own time and in our own way.

Chino

One of the first things I learned was to stop mind reading. If you want something specific from me, tell me