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Old 02-01-2009, 09:57 PM
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Just thinking out loud

I hope you all dont mind I post this. And I really hope noone gets offended. As I sometimes feel as if I am invading when I post here. I dont know why.
But a thread I read here the other day had me thinking and questioning my grams on how she dealt with me as an addict.

I never asked her how she felt or what ran through her mind all those years of dealing with me and my madness. I finally asked her yesterday.

I read some stuff in this forum on how some of you deal with your addicts and sometimes...I am just in shock.
I know you guys cant do anything to help us. And most definately take care of yourselves first. I agree with that 100%. I dont disagree there.
But some things I have read like setting your addict up. Making things more complicated than they have to be. Or even makin hurtful jokes of certain situations with your addicts when they are trying their best. I guess I just dont get that approach.
I am all for setting bounderies and letting go and letting addicts fall.
But to push the envelope in some ways like above.

Maybe its because I was fortunate enough to have my grams always stand by me. She has loved me unconditionally through it all and has never once judged me, turned her back on me or put me down.
Now that did hurt me more in alot of ways. Because she was a huge enabler.
But at the same time. That same love and comittment to me making it is what kept me from dieing or being a lost cause.
If she would have ever turned her back on me and disconnected from me. I would have lost it for real. I would have gone way further into hopelessness than I ever could imagine.

So it is very double standard for me.
I askes her why she always stood by me. First she said because she didnt want anyone to know her grand daughter was a drug addict. So she would do what she could to hide it. If it meant bailing me out of situations. Than thats what she would do. Then she said because she understands me. And she never wanted me to think I was alone and didnt have anyone. Then she said because she knows I will make it.
She also said she could never bring herself to just throw me away liek I was a piece of garbage.


I guess my point is. How do you seperate love from tough love?

I have read some pretty extreme ways of dealing with addicts here.
But we have extreme ways of doing everything. I know. But I could never imagine having my family turn away from me. Even if I do deserve it.
I am not making excuses. I know it is what you should do. But for some addicts. Its that hope and love that heals us eventually. I would have ended it long ago if my grams nust walked away from me. I wouldnt even care or try.

I thank God everyday for her. She is amazing. And deserves alot better than what I have put her through over the years. And now I am dedicated to making her happy any way possible. I have my days. But who doesnt. None of us are perfect.

I hope you guys dont slam me too bad.
I am just curious to know how some of your ways of dealing with your addict works for you AN them.
I am scared to click the post button. I just know this is going to be taken wrong.
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Old 02-01-2009, 11:06 PM
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Trish, in Jan. of '79 I was 33 1/2 years old and my folks said NO MORE. If I came to the door, it would be shut in my face, if I called on the phone they would hang up and if I stole from them they would call the police. They told me it was MY PROBLEM and I would have to fix it because they could not.

They meant it, they stuck by it.......................no more attorneys, no more bail outs, etc.

My immediate reaction was F you and I moved across country. It took me another 2 1/2 years to find recovery and the last year and a half I lived the streets of Hollyweird.

It was THE BEST THING MY PARENTS COULD HAVE EVER DONE FOR ME.

Later, when I had been sober and clean about 3 years or so and my Mom and I finally talked, I found out that had they not done what they did, they both felt that they themselves were going to end up in an insane asylum. They were absolutely at their WITS END.

In these many years since, I have seen many loved ones of addicts do the same. In many many instances it brings the addict quicker to their bottom, especially when they have to deal with the consequences of their actions.

As to 'setting the addict' up I am not sure what you are referring to unless it is calling the police when they are driving high or drunk. If that is what you are referring to, that is not 'setting the addict up.' That is 'saving a life or two' including one's own and one's children. Should that addict 'hit, maim, or kill' someone while driving, the SO and children will also suffer greatly.

Maybe it might help you to read Co-Dependent No More by Melodie Beattie. You will find a lot of answers there.

Hope that helps a bit.

Love and hugs,
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Old 02-01-2009, 11:23 PM
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Hi

it took me to do what happened to laurie and i am certain, without it, i would still be drinking. Beginning of last year I basically got rid of all my 'friends' in a way that there would be no going back. I also explained to my mother in so many words as to tell her i wanted no more help, in fact nothing more to do with any family members until i became sober for a long period, in not a nice way but a firm way. In March i was on my way back to UK with just my car and lots of debt and no money, in the UK i can contract and make a lot of money quick. So i paused as i wanted to break the cycle and took a much less paid job in Barcelona. So now i am 4 month'ish sober and happier than i have ever been.

My point is that everyone by trying to help me has kept me going, it took me to force myself into the lowest point in my personal hell so that i had little choice but to get help for myself.

I am still friends with an ex gf who is the best friend i have ever had and she is the exception to my perceived rule which is why on earth would i want to know or ever be associated with anyone who had been around when i was drinking? I have chats with my ex gf asking her why she stayed with me whilst i was drinking and she said because she loved me, i say to her she has learned a valuable lesson then and that is not to waste time trying to help and alcoholic or addict as the only person who can do that is ourselves. This is a generalisation, but for my mind is for the majority.

To save herself a lot of heartache she should have told me to come back when i was sober as should have everyone else. Sorry if this seems harsh but it's how i feel.
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Old 02-01-2009, 11:32 PM
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I don't take it wrong at all. I get where you're coming from....

Not sure what you are referring to when you said 'setting addicts up' or 'making things more complicated'. Maybe it's a difference in perspectives. I have just stopped trying to clean up my AH's messes. That's on him, not me. I can no longer pay the consequences for actions I had no control or choice over. It is just too heartbreaking.

For me it boils down to what I can accept and live with. No one is perfect. I do the best I can with what I have each day -- and that includes what I've learned about myself this past year.

Your grandmother made her choice to stick around because she could bear it and because she chose to. She accepted that role. We each find our own way and have to live with whatever that may mean.

In my alanon group there are some who have stuck by their 'qualifiers' for many, many years. These are usually older ladies who make comments like, "if I knew then what I know now" or "I couldn't leave because in those days divorce wasn't acceptable" or "What would I do know? Might as well stay". Some of their loved ones found recovery and they went on to lead content lives. Others still struggle. I guess the question in my mind to them is, would they do it differently IF they could go back? Hypothetical, I know, but I always wonder.

The ones who have found peace and serenity are the ones who have moved on, detached, or let go.....

My perspective is from being a spouse of an addict; I don't know how I would be if it were my son. But let me put this question out there.....

(and please don't take offense to this)

If you knew that your using cost your grandma years and years of stress, pain, and worry......do you think you could have accepted her wanting her to move on for her own self-preservation?

My thinking on this is something I have been tossing back and forth in my head for a while.....if my AH really loves and cares for me, why does he want me to stay even though he knows he causes me pain. If he truly loves me, wouldn't he want me to be happy? I know he loves me, and I know he thinks he can stay clean, but at some point his love becomes selfish and unhealthy for me.

Then she said because she understands me. And she never wanted me to think I was alone and didnt have anyone. Then she said because she knows I will make it.
She also said she could never bring herself to just throw me away liek I was a piece of garbage.
I understand my AH too. He hasn't had an easy life. I would not ever think of him as a piece of garbage or take breaking up lightly. There were times I thought I knew he could make it, that he had found his bottom. I admire your grams faith and hope ....you are fortunate to have her in your life. But keep in mind there are some who have had the same faith and hope and their loved ones have yet to find recovery.

JMHO of course.....hope this makes sense...and hope you remember I can only share my experience. You are a great part of the SR community, I'm glad you shared your thoughts.....
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Old 02-01-2009, 11:32 PM
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First don't worry about upsetting anyone here. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. To be honest I enjoy reading the posts of recovering addicts. It gives me a little bit better idea of what my friend is going though. Although I know I will never truely understand her addiction or what she is going though. Sometimes I'm able to gleen a little insight into why she did, said or acted in some way I didn't understand before.

My friend is an addict, And like your gram I tried to be there for my friend. Over time though I feel like she started to resent me for trying to help her. She and I aren't even talking now, not because I don't want to, but because she doesn't want anything to do with me at the moment. Why, is still a mystery to me.

I know she is having a tough time of it right now from she told me when she was still talking to me and I heard thought the grape vine its getting worse. So although I do still care about her and want to support her, I am on the sidelines for now. I accept that, even if i don't like it.

I know she knows that I care about her, that I only want the best for her and if and when she is ready to get help I will be there for her if she wants me to be. Until then I absolutely need to work on me. So thats what I'm doing.

Getting back to your post.....

Just like you I have found some of the advice in some posts to be harsh or over the top. But as it was explained to me in one of my posts. Everyones situation is different. Some people here have been fighting the battle of an addicted loved one for many many years. Some like me have only been dealing with it for 6 months or so. So not all advice is really applicable to all situations. So as it was explained to me, take what you want and leave the rest, so to speak.

Post all you want!
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Old 02-02-2009, 01:00 AM
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None of your responses were harsh to me. I can take it. And I really want to see what your opinions and approaches are.
Not out of contest. But out of curiosity.

When I said setting up. I dont mean by calling the police when they should be called. I mean by planting things on them. Making a situation when there isnt one kinda thing.
I know if my grams would have let me sit in jail the first or second even the 10th time. I would have gotten the picture alot faster too.
Also if she wouldnt have given me money when I had dealers threatening me if I didnt pay them. Things like that I think she should have removed herself.
But what I am talking about is how do some people just walk away and just be like forget about them. Whatever happens ...happens.
I havent seen it alot. I am just referring to a rare few posts I have seen here over the 2 yrs I have been here.
I dont think I could have handles my grams just completely washing her hands of me forever. Its hard to explain.
I often thought I was too much of a burden on my grams and 2 yrs ago came very close to killing myself. That hurt her more than anything I had ever done in my addiction.
I remember being a teen and seeing my ex's mother just put him out in the street and not care. I never understood that. He wasnt an addict. He did get in trouble. But I mean it was just normal teenage BS.
I dont know.
I do hae to say I read a thread here a few weeks ago where the OP was talking about how their addict was doing good and was doing something nice for that person and they had misplaced something and a joke was made out of it. And turned out to be a simple misplacement of the object and everyone was thinking it was funny and crackin jokes of their own experiences.
That kinda hurt to read. I felt bad for that OP's addict. I felt embarrassed for them.
Here this person is doing good and trying to do something special for this person and they turn a little thing into a joke. It made me feel like sometimes we can never live down our wrongs without somebody thinking the worst. And to laugh at them on top of it. I was ashamed for that poster. It did make me very sad.
I am noone to judge. But I am very passionate about redemption. I have done some pretty nasty things in my 14 yrs of addiction. But I really am a good person with all the best intentions. I was lost for a very long time and regret everything I have ever done to everyone in my path of destruction. And if someone I care about were to make a joke out of an attempt to do something good with a tiny blunder. It would rip my heart out.
I think I will stop there. I dont want to make a big deal out of nothing.
I was just curious as to what you guys go through. I could ever imagine what its like to watch someone you love destroy themselves in such a way and know you cant do anything about it. I have nothing but respect for all of you to deal with people like us addicts.
And to the ones who never stop believeing. Set those bounderies and take care of you first. But please..Never give up hope that someday they will make it. And never stop loving them. You can still show love and concern without jeopardising yourseles.
Sometimes the thought of knowing people havent given up on you is all we have sometimes. Even if we dont act like it. '
Thx for the responses all. I like to hear the other side. I want to understand more.
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Old 02-02-2009, 01:30 AM
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We all love our addicts here, and if love could get them clean, not one of us would be here.

Love isn't enough, sometimes love is too much.

The founder of SR, a recovering addict named Jon, once said "You just may love your addict right into the grave." I never forgot those words and understand even more today how true they are.

My son has been lost in his addiction for over 4 years, I have no idea where he is. I find my peace by saying a prayer each morning and giving his care to God...and then I spend the rest of my day living well, because life is precious and meant to be lived well.

I don't know if this clarifies anything, Chiynita, maybe it's as difficult to understand our side as it is for us to understand the side of addiction. The difference in each of us is often our recovery, and once we begin on the path of recovery, regardless of what brought us to it, we begin to have more in common and understand each other better.

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Old 02-02-2009, 01:38 AM
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I also want to add that when I first came to SR, I learned to laugh again, something I had not done in a very long time. I learned to laugh at myself and my circumstances, and yes to laugh at my son sometimes too.

That's the nice thing about this forum and my meetings...they are about ME and how I cope and I can tell you that I would never have made it without a sense of humour.

It may pain an addict to read what is written here, but it is not personal, it is not written for them, it is written as part of our healing and the ability to laugh at our circumstances.

I don't read the substance forums much, mainly because they are not about me or my issues. I may go there and ask a question or wish someone well who is celebrating, but I respect that we each have our sensitive issues and that our own forums are the place to share those.

Don't get me wrong, you are welcome to share here, just don't expect our answers to always be what you are looking for.

Hugs
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Old 02-02-2009, 03:01 AM
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Dont get me wrong. I am all for finding humor in anything.
But what I was referring to didnt come across to me as making light of a situation.
It was more of like a here we go again and look at that fool. And that was pretty much how it was posted.
But whatever. We can agree to disagree on that one.
I know that every situation is different and you all have to do what you have to in order to keep order and peace in your own lives. I wouldnt want any of you to be any different.
Like I said I could never in my lifetime imagine what you guys go through. And by me not understanding is why I ask. I dont expect to like everything anyone posts on any of these forums. And I am fully aware that every post anywhere here is based on the OP's situation. And for them by them.
I actually learn alot from reading the posts in this forum. It does help me understand whatmy family went through. And it also reminds me of how I dont want to be and treat my family ever again. It is a raw reminder of what I have done in my own situations. And for those reminders I am grateful.
This forum makes me relize that it isnt all about just me and my addiction. That it does affect more than just me.
I am a typical sensitive addict that just wanted to get a little understanding on my topic. And I have no hangups about asking questions if I dont understand something.
So thats what I did.
I thank you all for your insights. And I will continue to read here and post if I feel like I may have anything to share.
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Old 02-02-2009, 03:34 AM
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I never turned my back on my daughter. I turned my back on her addiction, which was controlling her and making her extremely selfish. She always knew that I loved her and that I wanted recovery for her and would be here when she was ready. I needed to get healthy myself and I could not do that and have a relationship with her. Since she had a abf that bought all of her drugs, she did not need me at that time either. I don't know what would have happened had she had no one in her life. But she has told me that she felt sorry for her ex-abf because his mother let him use her and she did not call him on his addiction. She said that she knew that when she was ready we would be there because we did not put up with the BS of her addiction. Hugs, Marle
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Old 02-02-2009, 03:40 AM
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The posting may seem harsh to you, but you see the people here have lost their homes, lost their children, lost their source of income and perhaps their life savings. That have been lied to and stolen from and left worrying all night long, wondering if their addict is dead or alive. And too often, the addict is dead. They have been raising their grandchildren, and trying to keep some kind of peace in the lives of these children, and they have sat by when their addict overdosed, and had to make decisions whether to leave them on life support or finally disconnect.

It's not that we don't have compassion for the addict, we do. But this forum is about getting past all of that and saving our own lives while we can. And if it doesn't "read well" to some who read here, then perhaps they should stick to what works for them.

This forum is about our healing. It's about us getting past being "stuck" in our codependency. It's about learning to live again when most of us have been close to death.

We apologize to no one for our recovery and whatever it takes for us to begin healing and reclaiming our lives. We no longer need permission to take steps to keep well.

Again, I am just telling it like it is here and anyone who feels offense reading here, may want to choose more wisely what they read.

Respectful Hugs
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Old 02-02-2009, 07:46 AM
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chiynita,
No offense taken here, I completely understand your curiosity.

I am the mother of 2 addict sons. One is 35, the other 30. For today, both are sober.
But they both started using at the ages of 11, and 16.

Before I ever went to Alanon, or came here, I did everything I thought a loving mother, who really, truly loved their sons would do.

That incuded:
Bail
Paying their Bills
Putting property up as collateral to get them released
Going to court
Paying their fines
Paying their rent
Lying for them
buying food

the list goes on and on for pages...

After so many years of trying the same thing over and over, expecting different results, I started attending Alanon. I let my sons go, built up faith that God would look after them, and started taking care of me.



It's one of the best things that ever happened in my life.

As for what Ann said, I very well could have loved them to death.


It was very hard, being a mom, to let go, but as I started reading literature, attending meetings, I discovered that everyone has their path to follow, it's not up to me to obstruct anyones journey.

Hugs...
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Old 02-02-2009, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by chiynita View Post
But what I was referring to didnt come across to me as making light of a situation.
It was more of like a here we go again and look at that fool. And that was pretty much how it was posted.
What you're describing sounds like contempt. For a lot of people it may be exactly what they need to help them detach before they can move onto compassion and acceptance. It's the same thing with anger and all the other emotions and reactions. From the addicts side, all sorts of nastiness and destruction may need to happen before recovery happens. Well, we're no different.
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Old 02-02-2009, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Ann View Post
The posting may seem harsh to you, but you see the people here have lost their homes, lost their children, lost their source of income and perhaps their life savings. That have been lied to and stolen from and left worrying all night long, wondering if their addict is dead or alive. And too often, the addict is dead. They have been raising their grandchildren, and trying to keep some kind of peace in the lives of these children, and they have sat by when their addict overdosed, and had to make decisions whether to leave them on life support or finally disconnect.

It's not that we don't have compassion for the addict, we do. But this forum is about getting past all of that and saving our own lives while we can. And if it doesn't "read well" to some who read here, then perhaps they should stick to what works for them.

This forum is about our healing. It's about us getting past being "stuck" in our codependency. It's about learning to live again when most of us have been close to death.

We apologize to no one for our recovery and whatever it takes for us to begin healing and reclaiming our lives. We no longer need permission to take steps to keep well.

Again, I am just telling it like it is here and anyone who feels offense reading here, may want to choose more wisely what they read.

Respectful Hugs
And I will say it again.
I myself took no offense to anything posted. Nor do I expect anyone to apologise for anything. Certainly not for someones elses situation.
I was blessed with a wonderful family that stood by me when everyone else would have walked away. or me personally. Thats what kept ME trying.
Like I said below.
I know that every situation is different and you all have to do what you have to in order to keep order and peace in your own lives. I wouldnt want any of you to be any different.
Like I said I could never in my lifetime imagine what you guys go through. And by me not understanding is why I ask. I dont expect to like everything anyone posts on any of these forums. And I am fully aware that every post anywhere here is based on the OP's situation. And for them by them.
I actually learn alot from reading the posts in this forum. It does help me understand whatmy family went through. And it also reminds me of how I dont want to be and treat my family ever again. It is a raw reminder of what I have done in my own situations. And for those reminders I am grateful.
This forum makes me relize that it isnt all about just me and my addiction. That it does affect more than just me.
I spoke my mind. My curiosity and my opinion as well.
And I dont apologise for that either.
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