winnie12

If he asks to come home he gives you the control - he is the weak one needing you. If he guilts you into asking him home then he keeps the control - becuase then it is YOU who wants it not him who needs it. They want US to be the one offering because then they dont have to take responsibility.

My son is a pro at this. He will complain and whine about a situation in the hopes that I will just fix it instead of just asking up front for something. If he asks me I may say no but if he can guide me into knowing what he wants and offering it then he can say - well I didnt ask for this you just did it on your own. They look at it as a gift freely given instead of a favor someone is doing them.

Think about it this way - what would be easier for you - calling a friend and asking for a loan when your having trouble buying groceries or having them on their own send you a gift card to a grocery store becuase they knew you were having trouble? The manipulator wants gifts given to them becuase they dont want to repay or have any stake in asking for something.

cassandra2

So let me get this straight. If he hints around to what his problem is and swoop in and fix it or beg him to come home then to him it looks as if he is coming back on his terms. Meaning he doesnt have to do anything. This probably also would free him up to say to his family that I needed him to come and help me at home with the kids because I am going to school working etc.

Am I right? I am a very real authentic person I say how I feel and try not to beat around the bush. Which is why I am having trouble getting this through my head. I keep telling myself well if he really wanted to come home or work things out so we could work towards him coming hom he ASK right?

Thanks amy and winnie....

Still Waters

Wow.

Talk about spot on. The only thing my AH couldn't do "better" than me was with monthly issues. :P

winnie12

Cassandra in my experience yes that is manipulation. Its form is more passive agressive and it works well on very giving people and codies. (do some research on passive agressive personalities and see if those trends fit your ex.)

my son uses that tactic all the time with me - he learned it from my ex. when i get upset he says - i didnt ask you to do this and he's right. he never asked me to do it so to him that means i cant complain. everything must turn around to be my fault in his mind - because if he sees something as his fault then he will have to deal with his problems. if he comes home because i ask him to or bail him out then in his mind i am willing to deal with him as he is and he doesnt have to change. if he asks me to come home and i agree then he has to deal with it on my terms. they use our love against us - they use our empathy against us - they use our giving nature against us. Its not that we cant ever give to them - but we have to give on our terms not theirs.

The way I deal with it now is that when he starts whining about a situation I say "that's sad for you" "so what are you going to do" "yeah that sure sounds like its going to be hard on you." I dont give him advice on what to do to get out of it and I dont offer my help - I've done enough for him there's no way I'm offering to do more. If he comes to me and says he has a problem, needs my help then it gives me the opportunity to say yes or no - if yes then I can easily set boundaries. I say no a lot now and tell him he'll have to find out how to accomplish these things on his own. They want us to save them - they want us to go back to the doormat role so that they dont have to change or help themselves.

dogged

Manipulation is whenever you are second guessing as to wether it is or not, everyone is capable of manipulation or not and many peope do it on a daily basis to get what they want..its human nature, but the moment of clarity is the addict uses it for eveything, that is thier MO..do only what you feel comfortable with, giving him a few cig is no big deal, giving him a place to live is..or giving money, the only way i judged to see if my ex was working his recovery or not is if he would take responsibility with his choices?? if he didnt then i know he wasnt working any program..it didnt matter what he thought he was dfoing for himself in recovery..it was what I NEEDED to see happen and behaviors to change before i would consider anyhting

winnie12

Cassandra one question - do you know the line between something being his problem and something being yours? Right now is this your problem? if its not then why should you be responsible to solve the problem. If you do help to solve his problem it then becomes your problem and then you have to deal with the consequences not him.

cassandra2

You are so right winnie. If I ask/beg him to come home then it dissovles all of his responsibility to change anything (in his mind). Like you said if I ask him to come home then its like saying I accept you the way you are. Good Point.

I really feel like I can make it through this if I can "see" this behavior then I dont feel guilty or sad or want to help him because I can see what he is doing.

This am we got over 9 inches of snow. I dug my van out for 20 minutes. Braved the snow covered roads and I get to his house and he says "oh what you cant keep her (the baby) for a couple of hours?" I said that I have to go to work. When he shoveled a way to my van he opens the door and says "its a snow emergency" Ok ya but work doesnt close. I work in a hospital.

He was mad because his sister stayed home from work today and they fight. So he is mad because now he has to sit there with her all day. So he is taking it out on me because again in his mind its my fault that this is his life.

I didnt tell him to move in with his sister. He thought it was a GREAT idea. I didnt tell him to abuse his pills. He thought that was a great idea.

So as long as I can see the manipulation it is easy for me NOT TO WANT HIM BACK. Until he starts to make REAL visual changes there is nothing I can do for him. He has to do it for himself. That may or may not ever happen.

Thanks winnie. Your advice is sound. I see it when I look at it from your perspective......

cassandra2

Yes, I see all of these things as being his problem because I know his has options. They may not be good options but he has them. Now whether or not he choses to look at it that way is his problem.

I just want to be able to see the manipulation as exactly that. When I see it, like I said before, then I dont feel like I have to SOLVE his problems because he made these decisions. I told him what he had to do to remedy this situation he doesnt want to do that so therefore its not an issue for me.

It makes me feel better telling myself its manipulation vs telling myself that he doesnt love us anymore. If that makes sense....

Limiya

I find this thread very interesting. Reminds me of a few things my abf would sometimes do to make me feel like things were my fault.

Several times when i would complain about his behaviour or his addiction he'd throw at me 'Well i told you i wasn't perfect when we met. So what do you expect?'
Of course i couldn't say anything in response.
Or i would be tired at 4am and want to sleep, but he wants to stay up longer than his friends and drink and use more drugs. As soon as i'd mention wanting to go home, he'd throw me 'You're younger than me and you can't stay up? The more you tell me you're tired, the longer i'll stay up. If you just enjoy yourself and stay up i will soon go home.'
I would feel so resentful and feel like a fool.
These are little things i don't stand for anymore.

He is obviously wanting you to offer to help. Then he can say 'Wel you offered' when it all goes wrong. If he needs help with anything, let him ASK YOU directly and then you can lay down your bounderies.
It sounds like he is hinting rather than askin for your help of advice.

Stay strong
~Limiya~

winnie12

cassandra anytime you feel pressure to do something you really dont want to do or have already said you wont do then that should put up a red flag that your being manipulated or may be manipulated. just keep saying no when its not something you want. I think we are all guilty of manipulating people at times but when it comes to your ex you just have to have a line clearly drawn of what you will and will not do and if you feel him trying to nudge you over that line then just plant your feet firmly and say No. You have to think of what is best for yourself and your child not what is best for a grown man that should be not only taking care of himself but being a benefit to your lives.

The addict needs us but is incapable of loving us. They see us as a means to an end. I just dont think that love has much to do with it. My son loves me - I know he does but he is incapable of showing it becuase when he looks at me all he sees is what i can do for him.

cassandra2

It just seems so stupid. To beat around the bush and to get someone to do something because you dont have the nads to ask for it.

I am not a mind reader. Like I said he knows what he needs to do and the only person that can do that is him. I just keeping saying to myself that it doesnt have to be like this. But for him I guess it does.

I just dont understand why he would want to continue living in this world that offers him nothing. No family, no future, no happiness, nothing that is worth having...

That seems so hopeless. He says that he is talking in his group and I know that is bs because he is still isolating himself from everyone and life's problems.....

Just makes me sad sometimes because he was never like this before. Starting to lose a little hope for him.....

outtolunch

This is, in a nutshell, the circular life of most addicts. There remains nothing more important than getting high or at least not feeling sick.

Anvilhead offered the most practical advise, that is finding alternative childcare. Many hospitals provide this for their employees, because of the challenges of three shifts. Perhaps your hospital is one of them.

Securing alternative childcare is probably going to be a milestone in your own recovery, when the time is right for you to do so.

Kallista

This happened to me, almost literally.

It wasn't a brain tumor, it was a tumor on my ovary. Before I had surgery to remove a tumor on my ovary, and my alcoholic/addicted mother told me 1) it was just a cyst, 2) I was being a baby about it, and 3) she had polycystic ovary syndrome when she was my age and it was much worse than what I had.

I was so effin' mad. After I blew up, she threw a huge emotional fit because she was "scared of losing her only daughter." My brother spent an enormous amount of time talking her down from that fit. She had a huge emotional scene at church, asking people to pray for her(!) because was "losing her only daughter." (She didn't ask anyone to pray for me, or her grandkids, or my husband. Just her. Which is pretty funny and over the top when you think about it.)

At our house, we call it "the Mom Show." We're all just props in the Mom Show.

(I'm fine, btw. It's all gone now.)

hello-kitty

So let me get this straight. If he hints around to what his problem is and swoop in and fix it or beg him to come home then to him it looks as if he is coming back on his terms. Meaning he doesnt have to do anything. This probably also would free him up to say to his family that I needed him to come and help me at home with the kids because I am going to school working etc.

Am I right?

YES! You are right. And this is what my addict ex does too. He hints around at problems so I will swoop in and fix them for him. That's just what he does.

It's my job not to fix his problems so he can learn to fix them himself. That is how I can help him. I must hold back. It's hard. But I can't fix this for him. His problem is him. Not his circumstances. It's him.

JMFburns

I haven't read through the entire thread, printed it to read at home later though!

But my thought was the stupid phone . . . my AS is not allowed to call my home (my daughter has a restraining order & I changed my phone # and made it unlisted - go Joan!) so calling at my work is his only way to get ahold of me. But . . . I told him yesterday that he needs to get his life on track, that I couldn't continue to have any contact with him until he got some help, got his life on track. So today I am fearing the phone ringing . . . it hasn't yet and I've got to move past the fear. He knows how hard it is for me to ignore the ringing phone and I proclaim each day to not answer any number I don't know (pay phones = AS.) But he still makes the call! And I still fail every dang day! Not today, not so far - I deserve this victory!

Anyway . . . it popped in my head and seemed like manipulation to me . . . maybe not.
Joan

cassandra2

Joan,

I am learning rather quickly now, that if they know it hurts you or they know they can get to you it probably is manipulation.

I saw my counselor today. This was my first session. He said that my ex is filled with alot of anger. He is angry especially at me. So through the anger he is manipulating me and trying to control me because it makes him feel better.

So I feel better that atleast its not made up in my mind....

Alaia

My ex-abf did the same thing, and I fell for it a few times, till I learned better. I haven't read everyone's responses yet, IMO it sounds like he might have broken some rules or used while @ his sisters house and she is kicking him out for his actions.

Alaia

Someone should make that a sticky in this forum.

loner1968

UGH! My X was a professional emotional manipulator. Cynical, You must know him because it seems you wrote that whole thing about him!!!
Sometimes the tactics are so very subtle that you won't see it. Him asking you for a few smokes seems innocent enough. But it was not innocent. It was a tactic. Can you figure out why I say that or what it accomplished for him?
It was much more than you just giving him a smoke. It was simple and effective manipulation. So what if you only had one left. You gave it to him. Its a smoke but ya know what? Its gonna become more and more.

He is working you and he knows how. They take any little thing we ever confided in them or trusted them with and they USE it as ammo. This top post is so disturbingly accurate it is freaking me out.

What you have to grasp is that right now, at this point in time, every single thing he does and says is manipulation. EVERYTHING! I had to learn this on my own and man was it hard and it almost drove me insane.

There are things he will say and do that might make you think "Now I'm just being petty and paranoid..there is no way someone would try that" Guess what? He will!

He wants back in your house and he wants to control you and he is right now because you are trying really hard to figure him out and he is probably sitting there waiting for you to crack. The best and hardest thing you could do now is to ignore it. Just have as little contact as possible with him . I know you have a daughter so you have to have some contact.

cassandra2

The only rule he broke was in his delusion of thinking his oxy script also doubled as a paycheck and he agreed to pay half of all the expenses with his sister. But he kinda gets off the hook with the rest of the family for that because everyone is looking at his sister like "duh, he doesnt have a job why would you think that he could pay any bills?"

But I am sure in his mind that too is my fault.