fine line between boundary and control
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 47
fine line between boundary and control
Sometimes, I have a hard time distinguishing between these two when trying to set boundaries, so I hope someone here might be able to offer some good feedback. Here's the situation:
My A relapsed about three months ago. First, drinking, then pot, then he slipped nearly all the way and did coke (I say "nearly" because he did not do his DOC--crack). The coke use happened 4 times over a three week period. He was caught each time. The very first time he did coke, he was using my car. So, I told him he couldn't use it anymore. His work is on a bus route. His comedy club is a three-block walk. Not letting him use the car was, in my mind, for my protection and a natural consequence of his actions. The vehicle is in my name. I pay for the gas, insurance and maintenance. Any number of things could happen to it, with it, in it, and I'm not going to put up with that. I also told him I wouldn't become his chauffer, either...He could get himself places without me. A couple of times since, he's referred to this as "punishment". Again, not the way I see it, but...whatever.
We haven't had any open discussions about whether or not he's doing anything. I figure asking is just trying to control. I also figure if he decides to recommit to sobriety, he'll make it known. That said, I'm pretty sure he hasn't used the coke in about 15 days. He hasn't had the money or the opportunity. He also has not had a drink in my presence for that long...even longer, really. He goes out frequently (3-4 times a week) to a comedy club near our house because he's a standup comic and, if he thinks there's an opportunity to perform, he'll be there. I don't think he's been drinking there, either, but I can't know for sure.
Last night, I picked him up from work because I was out shopping, anyway. He asked if I'd let him change real fast and then drop him by the club. I said "no". I was tired and had to finish dinner. He then said, "And, I can't use the car, either?". I said, "no". He asked how long this was going to go on. I said, "until you're sober". He said that he hasn't been drinking or drugging.
I said, "no, you haven't used drugs in a few days. that's not the same thing. have you been to a meeting or talked to a counselor?" He said, irritated, "I'm not going to do that just to get back in your good graces." I explained that I wasn't telling him he HAD to do anything. He could make any choice he wanted, but I had to protect myself. I also said that I thought bringing this up because he wanted the car right now was putting me on the spot...If he wanted to discuss it later--sit down and have a proper discussion--that was fine, but I wasn't about to make a decision in the five minutes it took to get home.
SO...my reason for asking the question about the meeting/counselor was not actually intended as a "you need to do this". It was legitimately a question. I thought maybe he'd reached the end of his relapse and was ready to go back to sobriety. What he seemed to be saying to me, before the question, was "it's over" (the relapse). As far as I know, without him making any real steps to sobriety, it's just a pause in the action. But, I definitely didn't mean to minimize any effort he's making to get clean or to give him an ultimatum.
On the other hand, until I know he's taking real steps to get sober, I'm not willing to go back to the way things were before. Not using for a few days could easily be a manipulation to "get back in my good graces" so he can get back trust and the privileges that go along with it. I'm not going to let him have access to the car or anything else that's mine and could be exploited for his addiction until I KNOW he's making a real effort to be sober. That seems like a reasonable boundary.
But, sometimes it feels like I'm trying to make him play by my rules...And, of course, I would love for him to get in some kind of program. I can't make him do it, but is restricting his access to things he used to be free to use a manipulation on my part? If I say, you can't use the car unless you are going to meetings...that could be seen as a control thing...
It just gets confusing...
My A relapsed about three months ago. First, drinking, then pot, then he slipped nearly all the way and did coke (I say "nearly" because he did not do his DOC--crack). The coke use happened 4 times over a three week period. He was caught each time. The very first time he did coke, he was using my car. So, I told him he couldn't use it anymore. His work is on a bus route. His comedy club is a three-block walk. Not letting him use the car was, in my mind, for my protection and a natural consequence of his actions. The vehicle is in my name. I pay for the gas, insurance and maintenance. Any number of things could happen to it, with it, in it, and I'm not going to put up with that. I also told him I wouldn't become his chauffer, either...He could get himself places without me. A couple of times since, he's referred to this as "punishment". Again, not the way I see it, but...whatever.
We haven't had any open discussions about whether or not he's doing anything. I figure asking is just trying to control. I also figure if he decides to recommit to sobriety, he'll make it known. That said, I'm pretty sure he hasn't used the coke in about 15 days. He hasn't had the money or the opportunity. He also has not had a drink in my presence for that long...even longer, really. He goes out frequently (3-4 times a week) to a comedy club near our house because he's a standup comic and, if he thinks there's an opportunity to perform, he'll be there. I don't think he's been drinking there, either, but I can't know for sure.
Last night, I picked him up from work because I was out shopping, anyway. He asked if I'd let him change real fast and then drop him by the club. I said "no". I was tired and had to finish dinner. He then said, "And, I can't use the car, either?". I said, "no". He asked how long this was going to go on. I said, "until you're sober". He said that he hasn't been drinking or drugging.
I said, "no, you haven't used drugs in a few days. that's not the same thing. have you been to a meeting or talked to a counselor?" He said, irritated, "I'm not going to do that just to get back in your good graces." I explained that I wasn't telling him he HAD to do anything. He could make any choice he wanted, but I had to protect myself. I also said that I thought bringing this up because he wanted the car right now was putting me on the spot...If he wanted to discuss it later--sit down and have a proper discussion--that was fine, but I wasn't about to make a decision in the five minutes it took to get home.
SO...my reason for asking the question about the meeting/counselor was not actually intended as a "you need to do this". It was legitimately a question. I thought maybe he'd reached the end of his relapse and was ready to go back to sobriety. What he seemed to be saying to me, before the question, was "it's over" (the relapse). As far as I know, without him making any real steps to sobriety, it's just a pause in the action. But, I definitely didn't mean to minimize any effort he's making to get clean or to give him an ultimatum.
On the other hand, until I know he's taking real steps to get sober, I'm not willing to go back to the way things were before. Not using for a few days could easily be a manipulation to "get back in my good graces" so he can get back trust and the privileges that go along with it. I'm not going to let him have access to the car or anything else that's mine and could be exploited for his addiction until I KNOW he's making a real effort to be sober. That seems like a reasonable boundary.
But, sometimes it feels like I'm trying to make him play by my rules...And, of course, I would love for him to get in some kind of program. I can't make him do it, but is restricting his access to things he used to be free to use a manipulation on my part? If I say, you can't use the car unless you are going to meetings...that could be seen as a control thing...
It just gets confusing...
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: MI
Posts: 132
same sitch
I just went through the same exact thing. My (now) X abf we moved into together in Jan, the rules were no drugs and go to counseling...he kept promising and even went once...he used the same term " good graces"
Thing is he wants you to be happy so he'll go or he'll do those things, but yes that's you forcing his recovery...he isn't going for HIM which is the most important reason to go.
I kicked my guy out 11 days ago and it sucks, its so hard...but all of the suddent I have this huge weight lifted off my shoulders. I can come home, drive my car, and not worry about finding drugs, pills, pot, coke, or a high guy...it's a bit of relief. Dont get me wrong this doesn't take away from how much I love him and miss him, I still cry everyday but I am just unwilling to live the rest of my life by his choices...miserable.
Thing is he wants you to be happy so he'll go or he'll do those things, but yes that's you forcing his recovery...he isn't going for HIM which is the most important reason to go.
I kicked my guy out 11 days ago and it sucks, its so hard...but all of the suddent I have this huge weight lifted off my shoulders. I can come home, drive my car, and not worry about finding drugs, pills, pot, coke, or a high guy...it's a bit of relief. Dont get me wrong this doesn't take away from how much I love him and miss him, I still cry everyday but I am just unwilling to live the rest of my life by his choices...miserable.
Don't get undies in a bunch
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Shore MA
Posts: 7,120
Originally Posted by cen616 
If I say, you can't use the car unless you are going to meetings...that could be seen as a control thing...
It just gets confusing...
It just gets confusing...
I am going to a meeting (and he runs out to hook up).
If he wants meetings... a bus can take him there just as well as it can take him to work.
Boundaries are what we set to protect our space. If our boundaries guide others that is an extra. Why you set a boundary is to keep your space at peace. If another person corrects their actions..that is there choice. You can't control others no matter how many boundaries you put in place.
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Kansas
Posts: 10,182
There is absolutely nothing wrong with setting boundaries to protect yourself and make it clear that is the way things will be until you see some solid long-term recovery, if that's what you want.
After my oldest daughter stepped over every boundary in this house (she was staying with me after a 9 month stint in jail), I showed her the door, changed the locks, and got a restraining order.
She's no longer welcome in my home till she has a solid year of recovery under her belt.
She's still using/drinking 4 years later.
After my oldest daughter stepped over every boundary in this house (she was staying with me after a 9 month stint in jail), I showed her the door, changed the locks, and got a restraining order.
She's no longer welcome in my home till she has a solid year of recovery under her belt.
She's still using/drinking 4 years later.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 47
Freedom1990...these are my thoughts: You can't have access to my things, which you can damage (or use to damage me), until I see some solid recovery. Then it is up to him, of course, to recover or not. So, it's good to know others have set that kind of boundary.
My fear, I suppose, is that he'll make an effort just so he can get something he doesn't have right now...rather than doing it for himself. That is the last thing I want.
But, I suppose that fear in and of itself is based on the assumption that my actions/boundaries have the power to make him do something. Obviously, your daughter isn't going to be manipulated into recovery with the offer of a stable home. My A isn't going to be manipulated into it for the occasional use of a car.
More likely, he'll just sit and bitch that I'm being unfair and mean to him. One thing I've learned about my A, but still sometimes overlook, is that he won't lift a finger to do ANYTHING he doesn't really want to do for himself
My fear, I suppose, is that he'll make an effort just so he can get something he doesn't have right now...rather than doing it for himself. That is the last thing I want.
But, I suppose that fear in and of itself is based on the assumption that my actions/boundaries have the power to make him do something. Obviously, your daughter isn't going to be manipulated into recovery with the offer of a stable home. My A isn't going to be manipulated into it for the occasional use of a car.
More likely, he'll just sit and bitch that I'm being unfair and mean to him. One thing I've learned about my A, but still sometimes overlook, is that he won't lift a finger to do ANYTHING he doesn't really want to do for himself
Don't get undies in a bunch
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Shore MA
Posts: 7,120
Actions....Over time.
I can fake it for a week.
I can even fake it for a month or two.
I can't fake it for ever though...so actions....over time are the only way to know if my recovery is real.
Time will tell.
I can fake it for a week.
I can even fake it for a month or two.
I can't fake it for ever though...so actions....over time are the only way to know if my recovery is real.
Time will tell.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,287
Hang in there.....be true to what you know you need to do for you. You set that boundary as a way to protect yourself, and rightly so IMHO. Am I wrong to guess that he doesn't have a car because of his own actions?
I too feel conflicted with one of my boundaries I set for my husband. He is addicted to Vicodin right now, After much discussion, he asked me to hold his pills for him and dispense them to him as directed by his doctor. The plan is he will taper down until he is eventually off. So my boundary is that I will give the pills as prescribed, and nothing more. If he hassles me, I will give the pills back and he's on his own. So far its worked out ok, he has stuck to the plan and is down to 8 pills a day (from 16-20). But I do feel that I am controlling him, even though he asked me to. Maybe its not a very good boundary....who knows.
I think it was Best who said if he wants a meeting, he can take a bus, I agree, it doesn't need to be with your help if he really wants it. He could also get some numbers and ask for rides, my H used to give rides to many newcomers. Just wanted to say you are on the right track.
I too feel conflicted with one of my boundaries I set for my husband. He is addicted to Vicodin right now, After much discussion, he asked me to hold his pills for him and dispense them to him as directed by his doctor. The plan is he will taper down until he is eventually off. So my boundary is that I will give the pills as prescribed, and nothing more. If he hassles me, I will give the pills back and he's on his own. So far its worked out ok, he has stuck to the plan and is down to 8 pills a day (from 16-20). But I do feel that I am controlling him, even though he asked me to. Maybe its not a very good boundary....who knows.
I think it was Best who said if he wants a meeting, he can take a bus, I agree, it doesn't need to be with your help if he really wants it. He could also get some numbers and ask for rides, my H used to give rides to many newcomers. Just wanted to say you are on the right track.
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 4,269
Originally Posted by cen616
I can't make him do it, but is restricting his access to things he used to be free to use a manipulation on my part? If I say, you can't use the car unless you are going to meetings...that could be seen as a control thing...
It just gets confusing...
I sit here and scratch my head and wonder why he was free to use your car and whatever, before you knew, let alone now. He's an adult. Where is his car? Does he pay for half of your shared living expenses, assuming you share living arrangements?
Or maybe I have this wrong and you are his mom with a sense of obligation to support an adult child.
Regardless, what in this relationship for you?
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Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,691
I've struggled over this as well. Prior to RAH moving in with me I stated that I did not want to live with him unless he was in recovery (not abstinent but in recovery). He came up with an agreement with what he was going to do. Low and behold, after a year he all but dropped all of it and was basically a non-using drug addict. I struggled with staying out of his program vs. my boundaries. I tried every angle to accept his "doing it his way" and basically, I determined that he was such an *ss to live with without recovery that I couldn't stand to be around him. I'm not telling him how to "do it" but I finally decided that his going to 3 meetings a week (even if he sleeps through them all) is a boundary that I am not willing to negotiate on any longer. The last 2 years have been the worst of my life and I don't care who thinks I might be working his program. It's my boundary because I've discovered that I can't tolerate being around him unless he does goes. I don't have a thing to say about his (not) working the steps or (not) working with a sponsor. I guess that is our compromise. I'm in recovery too so I know the deal. It has nothing to do with keeping him sober - it has to do with keeping me sober......
A long time ago a woman in Naranon responded to my question regarding whether a particular boundary was reasonable or not - she said if it's what you need to be sane then it doesn't matter if it's reasonable. Living with a drug addict (recovering or not) is not reasonable.
For me, it all boils down to taking care of myself and protecting my sanity and my serenity. Am I available to live my life or am I spending any time fretting over HIM? What boundaries do I need to make (and keep) to do that?
You are asking good questions and you are finding your way through the maze. That is all any of us are able to do.
A long time ago a woman in Naranon responded to my question regarding whether a particular boundary was reasonable or not - she said if it's what you need to be sane then it doesn't matter if it's reasonable. Living with a drug addict (recovering or not) is not reasonable.
For me, it all boils down to taking care of myself and protecting my sanity and my serenity. Am I available to live my life or am I spending any time fretting over HIM? What boundaries do I need to make (and keep) to do that?
You are asking good questions and you are finding your way through the maze. That is all any of us are able to do.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 47
itisatruth and best...Thanks. You both have said things that ease my mind.
outtolunch...He lost his car during his last relapse, over a year ago. This was before we lived together. So far, he's been unable to save up the money to get another. This is, primarily, because he turns all his paychecks over to me to pay his half of living expenses. His "overage", after these bills are paid, is enough for him to pay child support for his son (who still lives with his mother) and have a bit of spending money through the week and that's about it. But, yes, he works and he pays his share.
The first 7 months he lived with me, he was sober and responsible. Once in a while, if he needed to get somewhere and I wasn't going out--or he volunteered to run an errand so I could do something else--I'd let him use the car. Also, he is a performer and has out-of-town gigs here and there. He usually shares rides with other comics, but sometimes has to go on his own. I had let him use the car for that (with him paying the gas) maybe 5-6 times over the last year. There were, at those times, no reasons not to trust he'd just go to work or the store or to his gig. Now, there is reason to doubt.
And, to all, I guess I wasn't clear in something I said...I never intended to let him use the car to get to meetings. There are a good 15-20 meetings per week within walking distance or a quick bus ride from our house. If I were available, I'd be happy to drop him off, too. What I meant was that I don't want to let him use my car for anything unless I am confident he is solidly in recovery. I know that's not a guarantee there won't be another relapse...or even a little slip....I'll not have a guarantee of that as long as we're together, even if that's the rest of our lives.
But, I do think, at some point (maybe not for years, but *some point*), if someone is really in recovery, you have to begin giving them the dignity of trust.
outtolunch...He lost his car during his last relapse, over a year ago. This was before we lived together. So far, he's been unable to save up the money to get another. This is, primarily, because he turns all his paychecks over to me to pay his half of living expenses. His "overage", after these bills are paid, is enough for him to pay child support for his son (who still lives with his mother) and have a bit of spending money through the week and that's about it. But, yes, he works and he pays his share.
The first 7 months he lived with me, he was sober and responsible. Once in a while, if he needed to get somewhere and I wasn't going out--or he volunteered to run an errand so I could do something else--I'd let him use the car. Also, he is a performer and has out-of-town gigs here and there. He usually shares rides with other comics, but sometimes has to go on his own. I had let him use the car for that (with him paying the gas) maybe 5-6 times over the last year. There were, at those times, no reasons not to trust he'd just go to work or the store or to his gig. Now, there is reason to doubt.
And, to all, I guess I wasn't clear in something I said...I never intended to let him use the car to get to meetings. There are a good 15-20 meetings per week within walking distance or a quick bus ride from our house. If I were available, I'd be happy to drop him off, too. What I meant was that I don't want to let him use my car for anything unless I am confident he is solidly in recovery. I know that's not a guarantee there won't be another relapse...or even a little slip....I'll not have a guarantee of that as long as we're together, even if that's the rest of our lives.
But, I do think, at some point (maybe not for years, but *some point*), if someone is really in recovery, you have to begin giving them the dignity of trust.
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