using: a choice or not
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Between the ocean and the mountains
Posts: 653
using: a choice or not
hello everyone at SR. i am writing today in hopes some of the members who are recovering addicts can address confusion i have about whether an addict has a choice to use drugs. i have read everything i could get my hands on about addiction, have listened to hazelden lectures on tape, have watched the moyers and hbo series on addiction, have read this board for a long time--including the boards for addicts--and this is the one issue i am still confused about.
when the recovery literature speaks of addiction it consistently says that the addict has lost the power to choose whether or not to use drugs and alcohol. in a very good hazelden lecture, the voice inside the addict's head is personified as "Slick", and it is Slick who manipulates the addict's mind into using again. Slick is a master, and even into 20 years' sobriety, Slick can cunningly and powerfully convince the addict to use. my understanding is also that if an addict's life is hit with unexpected trauma and crisis, the inner and outer chaos can ignite a relapse slide and at some point in this slide--before the addict has ever picked up the drug--the addict LOSES THE POWER TO CHOOSE. this is very clearly explained in literature on relapse.
i have read on this board comments by posters that the addict is "selfish" when he relapses to using after a period of sobriety. and i have to say, it seems to me that this view could only serve to keep a miserable addict from returning to recovery, for if his relapse is viewed as a conscious, selfish decision, rather than the outcome of a cunning and powerful disease of the mind, then shame could keep him out of the programs forever to his death.
for me, from my reading, i am trying to see the return to using as part of the complexity of this disease and its ability to make people do what they do not want to do ever again. i am trying to see that once they relapse, they do have a choice, but the choice is whether or not to seek help. however, if their relapse is seen by others as an "evil, selfish decision", how can they ever seek the help they need?
i am truly trying to find my way to a clearer view of this and i would appreciate any input from those who have longtime recovery to help me understand. thanks a lot.
bluejay
when the recovery literature speaks of addiction it consistently says that the addict has lost the power to choose whether or not to use drugs and alcohol. in a very good hazelden lecture, the voice inside the addict's head is personified as "Slick", and it is Slick who manipulates the addict's mind into using again. Slick is a master, and even into 20 years' sobriety, Slick can cunningly and powerfully convince the addict to use. my understanding is also that if an addict's life is hit with unexpected trauma and crisis, the inner and outer chaos can ignite a relapse slide and at some point in this slide--before the addict has ever picked up the drug--the addict LOSES THE POWER TO CHOOSE. this is very clearly explained in literature on relapse.
i have read on this board comments by posters that the addict is "selfish" when he relapses to using after a period of sobriety. and i have to say, it seems to me that this view could only serve to keep a miserable addict from returning to recovery, for if his relapse is viewed as a conscious, selfish decision, rather than the outcome of a cunning and powerful disease of the mind, then shame could keep him out of the programs forever to his death.
for me, from my reading, i am trying to see the return to using as part of the complexity of this disease and its ability to make people do what they do not want to do ever again. i am trying to see that once they relapse, they do have a choice, but the choice is whether or not to seek help. however, if their relapse is seen by others as an "evil, selfish decision", how can they ever seek the help they need?
i am truly trying to find my way to a clearer view of this and i would appreciate any input from those who have longtime recovery to help me understand. thanks a lot.
bluejay
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 3,335
I'm a recovering crack addict with 2 1/2 years clean and 4 years in recovery. It was the hardest choice I ever made in my life (to get clean). I put a lot of work into it. I still do. I know what I need to do to stay clean. I recognize "Slick" when he starts talking to me. I can choose to listen or I can choose recovery. If I choose to listen to "Slick", it is an evil selfish thing that I choose to do. I am choosing to screw over my family, my child and worst of all, myself. That doesn't make me evil. But it makes my choice evil.
The bad choice to use is always available to me, but I choose recovery instead. Because once I relapse, I may not have a choice anymore. I could lose everything and everyone I care about. "Slick" could take over. I could do some very evil selfish things to get drugs. I could go to prison. I could die. I may not get a second chance at recovery. I choose life.
The bad choice to use is always available to me, but I choose recovery instead. Because once I relapse, I may not have a choice anymore. I could lose everything and everyone I care about. "Slick" could take over. I could do some very evil selfish things to get drugs. I could go to prison. I could die. I may not get a second chance at recovery. I choose life.
On a tear
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Volcano Country!
Posts: 3,221
I haven't been on a drunk since 1983, but I have gone through periods SINCE then that help me see that relapse happens in my HEAD, first and can only be won (for me) in the early stages.
I know I've tried to physically restrain my daughter from using, to no avail. I've tried manipulation (and I am a master, let me tell you); bribery; prayer; pleading... NOTHING could stop her because she had already decided before she ever took that first step toward using.
Sounds like a good video, thank you for sharing this.
I know I've tried to physically restrain my daughter from using, to no avail. I've tried manipulation (and I am a master, let me tell you); bribery; prayer; pleading... NOTHING could stop her because she had already decided before she ever took that first step toward using.
Sounds like a good video, thank you for sharing this.
Retired Pro Drunk
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Posts: 901
On Choice:
Everything we do is by choice. It's the capability of making a reasonable choice that is lost in addiction. The addict makes the choice, but often is not capable of making the right choice. I was tought (at Hazelden - twice) that the choice to use again is more of a choice. It's stopping/controlling use that is often not a choice. Once the addict picks up and uses, even just a taste, all logic and reason are lost.
On Relapse:
Relapse happens. I learned (at Hazelden) that the relapse begins long before the addict picks up again. Once the addict uses again, the relapse is over and they are back in active addiction.
Looking back on my relapses, I can now see that they began months before I actually started using again. One thing I was tought in treatment was how to identify those signs and what to do about them before I end up using again.
Is it "selfish?"
Beats the heck out of me. Is it selfish when the cancer in remission returns? Maybe the cancer victim started slacking on their healthy lifestyle protocol. Are they to blame for not following up with the doctor every year for regular check-ups? Yet no one is surprised when the smoker gets lung cancer. So that's their fault.
That's a really, really tough question. We addicts are selfish by nature (ask any of us). I sure as hell didn't consider my relapses selfish. Who was I hurting besides myself? Was I even hurting myself? Maybe I'm not an addict after all. There's still all sorts of maintenance methods I haven't tried. Maybe the next one will work.
Is the smoker selfish for smoking? Are the morbidly obese selfish for eating? I drink coffee, am I selfish?
Everything we do is by choice. It's the capability of making a reasonable choice that is lost in addiction. The addict makes the choice, but often is not capable of making the right choice. I was tought (at Hazelden - twice) that the choice to use again is more of a choice. It's stopping/controlling use that is often not a choice. Once the addict picks up and uses, even just a taste, all logic and reason are lost.
On Relapse:
Relapse happens. I learned (at Hazelden) that the relapse begins long before the addict picks up again. Once the addict uses again, the relapse is over and they are back in active addiction.
Looking back on my relapses, I can now see that they began months before I actually started using again. One thing I was tought in treatment was how to identify those signs and what to do about them before I end up using again.
Is it "selfish?"
Beats the heck out of me. Is it selfish when the cancer in remission returns? Maybe the cancer victim started slacking on their healthy lifestyle protocol. Are they to blame for not following up with the doctor every year for regular check-ups? Yet no one is surprised when the smoker gets lung cancer. So that's their fault.
That's a really, really tough question. We addicts are selfish by nature (ask any of us). I sure as hell didn't consider my relapses selfish. Who was I hurting besides myself? Was I even hurting myself? Maybe I'm not an addict after all. There's still all sorts of maintenance methods I haven't tried. Maybe the next one will work.
Is the smoker selfish for smoking? Are the morbidly obese selfish for eating? I drink coffee, am I selfish?
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: To the North
Posts: 1,086
BlueJay! Thanks for posing this question. I find it helpful to have a little insight as I think this concept is a bit confusing also - at least so far. You might want to read the thread at the Narcotics Addiction - 12-Step Support board, Question about Disease of Addiction posted by Sheila77. Not exactly your question here, but crosses over.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: limbo
Posts: 2,849
hello
I am not an addict and maybe you wont want my imput but an addict friend sent a text to my husbands phone this am ( he sends one daily and AH is now in treatment)
anyhow the text said this...............
relapse is never an accident its a sign that we have a reservation in our program..........
I believe this came out of the NA book but I was thinking about that and I believe that pretty much sums it up.............the reservation in the program...........for my husband I belive that reservation is that he has yet to surrender and he still lets his mind tell him he can use just a little just this once...........
I am not an addict and maybe you wont want my imput but an addict friend sent a text to my husbands phone this am ( he sends one daily and AH is now in treatment)
anyhow the text said this...............
relapse is never an accident its a sign that we have a reservation in our program..........
I believe this came out of the NA book but I was thinking about that and I believe that pretty much sums it up.............the reservation in the program...........for my husband I belive that reservation is that he has yet to surrender and he still lets his mind tell him he can use just a little just this once...........
Administrator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: a better place
Posts: 4,047
Great thoughts here...I read the subject line and was hesitant to open it for fear of an "addict bashing" post. I am so glad I peeked anyway
Thank you for this thread and for all the very thoughtful responses. It is certainly confusing. I am not a recovering addict, but I sure do know that there are things in life I know are not good for me, but I seem compelled to do. Even the insanity that was the result of my codependency...I knew in some way that what I did over and over wasn't good for anyone, yet I was obsessed and compelled. Now I too have to stay on top of my program so I do not become complacent in my life.
Lies, I always believed that was what my daughter struggled with as well...She thought she could control it; she would substitute or just do "a little." Unfortunately the last relapse was the last time. That little bit (and it was truly a little, they found the bag with most still in it and tests confirmed) was tainted and she died. Unfortunately the reality of how easily that can happen is not an easy thing to wrap one's arms around. That is one of the reasons I do believe it is a physical disease and a sickness is of the mind...To let "Slick" convince you that just this once is no big deal even when that person has overdosed and almost died before...well it defies "rational" thought. Addictions...incredibly baffling.
Thank you for this thread and for all the very thoughtful responses. It is certainly confusing. I am not a recovering addict, but I sure do know that there are things in life I know are not good for me, but I seem compelled to do. Even the insanity that was the result of my codependency...I knew in some way that what I did over and over wasn't good for anyone, yet I was obsessed and compelled. Now I too have to stay on top of my program so I do not become complacent in my life.
for my husband I believe that reservation is that he has yet to surrender and he still lets his mind tell him he can use just a little just this once
Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: limbo
Posts: 2,849
greet, thank you for sharing that with me ( with us)
I wish it wasnt such a baffling disease and I wish so my lifes were not lost and wasted.
We, ( the families) know, dread, think about and realize that one more time and just a little could lead to their death...................My only wish is that the still sufferring addicts knew the same and believed it
(((((((((((((((((((((HUGS))))))))))))))))))))))))
I wish it wasnt such a baffling disease and I wish so my lifes were not lost and wasted.
We, ( the families) know, dread, think about and realize that one more time and just a little could lead to their death...................My only wish is that the still sufferring addicts knew the same and believed it
(((((((((((((((((((((HUGS))))))))))))))))))))))))
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