crisis of 'religion'...
Nature Girl
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: By The Lake
Posts: 60,328
Limb, I go to a variety of churches, and I go for the message and my own personal relation ship with God (and Jesus). Although I always leave money on the collection plate, I don't join any one of them because I am not interested in "church doctrine".
I'm glad there are churches and I respect their right to believe whatever they want to believe, about doctrine or God or me as a non-member. What I don't respect is when they become judgmental or self-righteous and pretend to know what is best for me "in the name of God".
The God of my understanding is a loving and forgiving God, and there is nothing in this world that he won't forgive. He knows our sins and He knows our pain and the God in my heart would never hurt anyone.
Good for you, Limb, for getting miffed about this. Personally, I think the God of my understanding would be darn proud of you for that.
Hugs
I'm glad there are churches and I respect their right to believe whatever they want to believe, about doctrine or God or me as a non-member. What I don't respect is when they become judgmental or self-righteous and pretend to know what is best for me "in the name of God".
The God of my understanding is a loving and forgiving God, and there is nothing in this world that he won't forgive. He knows our sins and He knows our pain and the God in my heart would never hurt anyone.
Good for you, Limb, for getting miffed about this. Personally, I think the God of my understanding would be darn proud of you for that.
Hugs
On a tear
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Volcano Country!
Posts: 3,221
OOAL... big hugs. I have a separation of heart with my church over what I believe is the same issue as you.
But I didn't change churches.
I just figured out why I went in the first place!
My faith is strong... deep.... wide... fulfilling... unlimited. My God is the same.
My church is about fellowship... praise... song. I love the people of my church, though I disagree on the narrowest of their interpretations.
I figure if *I* can accept the difference and still love them, then God can still love me.
No one man or group of men speaks for Him. He speaks to me through others by their actions.
My cousins are elders in my church. They and I disagree on this position.... and they will continue to pray for me. I will bask in their prayers and know they love me, even with this difference.
My prayers that you can find a place that fits what you need.
But I didn't change churches.
I just figured out why I went in the first place!
My faith is strong... deep.... wide... fulfilling... unlimited. My God is the same.
My church is about fellowship... praise... song. I love the people of my church, though I disagree on the narrowest of their interpretations.
I figure if *I* can accept the difference and still love them, then God can still love me.
No one man or group of men speaks for Him. He speaks to me through others by their actions.
My cousins are elders in my church. They and I disagree on this position.... and they will continue to pray for me. I will bask in their prayers and know they love me, even with this difference.
My prayers that you can find a place that fits what you need.
Awaiting Email Confirmation
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Worcester
Posts: 789
Originally Posted by laurie6781 
OOAL, there is a book, by Emmet Fox titled "The Sermon On The Mount."
It certainly helped me a lot to differentiate between organized religion, God's or HP's laws and man made laws.
It certainly helped me a lot to differentiate between organized religion, God's or HP's laws and man made laws.
Bridge CLOSED
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: No ones business
Posts: 1,497
My church is currently split over this issue and the issue of whether or not marriage is acceptable.
I am in a church siding with the more liberal faction in saying that all are welcome to worship. My Mom is in a church of the less tolerant faction.
I truly try to stay out of it all. I go to church for the direction and to give myself a time when God is my full focus. However, the discussions do ensue after services....
Apparently the conservative faction of the church takes a bible more literally on this subject. In a discussion I turned to someone and said, "Are we to worship God or are we worshiping the bible? I thought we weren't supposed to worship icons under the 10 commandments?" Dead silence followed.
The purpose of organized religion in my life is for me. I take what I need and leave the rest. Just like Alanon.
I am in a church siding with the more liberal faction in saying that all are welcome to worship. My Mom is in a church of the less tolerant faction.
I truly try to stay out of it all. I go to church for the direction and to give myself a time when God is my full focus. However, the discussions do ensue after services....
Apparently the conservative faction of the church takes a bible more literally on this subject. In a discussion I turned to someone and said, "Are we to worship God or are we worshiping the bible? I thought we weren't supposed to worship icons under the 10 commandments?" Dead silence followed.
The purpose of organized religion in my life is for me. I take what I need and leave the rest. Just like Alanon.
Power is not having to respond
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Wabbit Hole
Posts: 1,923
Not in any I have attended, but there was the one in the news that protested soldiers funerals and were even going to protest the Amish girls who were shot to death in Lancaster PA.
Talk about being deeply ashamed and angry at people in my "religion"!
Talk about being deeply ashamed and angry at people in my "religion"!
Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 220
I have just never found what you are supposed to find in a church setting.....but take me to an old-growth forest or put a baby in my arms, and I haven't a doubt in my mind that a higher power is with me.
In my opinion, religions tend to create God in their own image (with all of our worst human qualities) instead of vice versa. They make God too small.
I find religion divides and spirituality unites.
Just my opinion.....I know religion is a sensitive subject.
Babs
In my opinion, religions tend to create God in their own image (with all of our worst human qualities) instead of vice versa. They make God too small.
I find religion divides and spirituality unites.
Just my opinion.....I know religion is a sensitive subject.
Babs
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Des Plaines,IL
Posts: 187
Originally Posted by Babs
I have just never found what you are supposed to find in a church setting.....but take me to an old-growth forest or put a baby in my arms, and I haven't a doubt in my mind that a higher power is with me.
In my opinion, religions tend to create God in their own image (with all of our worst human qualities) instead of vice versa. They make God too small.
I find religion divides and spirituality unites.
Just my opinion.....I know religion is a sensitive subject.
Babs
In my opinion, religions tend to create God in their own image (with all of our worst human qualities) instead of vice versa. They make God too small.
I find religion divides and spirituality unites.
Just my opinion.....I know religion is a sensitive subject.
Babs
Organized religion is not ALL religion, but unfortunately, many people fail to make that important distinction. I know that statements like, "I find religion divides and spirituality unites" sound profound, but they are anything but. Some religion divides people, but ALL religion?
As far as spirituality goes, I am not really a big fan of it, and that is my number one problem with AA. Who or what is this higher power, God, that AA speaks about? How are alcoholics or drug addicts, who maybe have lost their families, or their jobs, or their homes because of the insanity of their addiction supposed to now decide who their God is going to be? These people have made one bad decision after another, which has led to their downward spiral, yet now AA tells them they need to decide who is going to be their higher power. That's insane. Since they have made all of these bad decisions in the past, what would lead anyone to believe that they are going to make a good decision in choosing a God? The suggestion that their God could be a group of recovering alcoholics or drug addicts is then thrown out there as a possible choice. As far as I know, God isn't a group of recovering alcoholics or drug addicts. I am sure of that.
Having said all of that, I will say that there is a lot of good in AA. Admitting you have a problem, taking a moral inventory, assuming ownership of your actions, and making amends to those whom you have done wrong is good stuff, really good stuff...I take the good and leave the nonsense.
Peace.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nearby
Posts: 231
> I know that statements like, "I find religion divides and spirituality unites" sound profound, but they are anything but.<
I had a pastor say nearly this same thing. He added, "I feel like all of this spirituality talk is the enemy of the church." Turns out he was right.
I had a pastor say nearly this same thing. He added, "I feel like all of this spirituality talk is the enemy of the church." Turns out he was right.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 220
Ouch. I knew I should have kept my mouth shut.
I will not try to justify my position, because that would be futile. I know what is in my heart, and I know that my God is with me, in me, part of me. Whether I am involved in a church or not.
I will comment no further.
Bye.
Babs
I will not try to justify my position, because that would be futile. I know what is in my heart, and I know that my God is with me, in me, part of me. Whether I am involved in a church or not.
I will comment no further.
Bye.
Babs
Forum Leader
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In my little piece of heaven
Posts: 2,870
Without reading any of the other responses, I felt compelled to jump in and say YES YES YES I have felt that way!
My ex and I were very active members in our church. We went on mission trips, we went Sunday morning, sunday night, Weds night. Our kids were active in the Youth Group.
My ex "found god" in a powerful way. He left his job and decided to become a missionary. He had only been a Christian for about a yr when he decided to do this.
Without going into much more detail, suffice to say that he used his religion and HIS understanding of the Bible to control and manipulate a lot of people. During our divorce, he used the church as a means to control me more. Church people would do things in "the name of church" to try to manipulate me even more. It was downright scary. I lost a lot of good friends as a result of this mess.
My ex moved out of the state and hooked up with another church. He's been tossed from 2 churches now, and last I heard he had started his OWN church.
I have been church shopping since I moved to another state. So far the majority seem to be very incompatible.... perhaps its just my "stuff" in the way. Who knows? I pray about it, and I continue on my path.
Needless to say, I have huge issues with organized religion. Fortunately, my God and I are very close. Hopefully I'll be able to find a church but if not, I'm ok with that.
Hugs
Cats
My ex and I were very active members in our church. We went on mission trips, we went Sunday morning, sunday night, Weds night. Our kids were active in the Youth Group.
My ex "found god" in a powerful way. He left his job and decided to become a missionary. He had only been a Christian for about a yr when he decided to do this.
Without going into much more detail, suffice to say that he used his religion and HIS understanding of the Bible to control and manipulate a lot of people. During our divorce, he used the church as a means to control me more. Church people would do things in "the name of church" to try to manipulate me even more. It was downright scary. I lost a lot of good friends as a result of this mess.
My ex moved out of the state and hooked up with another church. He's been tossed from 2 churches now, and last I heard he had started his OWN church.
I have been church shopping since I moved to another state. So far the majority seem to be very incompatible.... perhaps its just my "stuff" in the way. Who knows? I pray about it, and I continue on my path.
Needless to say, I have huge issues with organized religion. Fortunately, my God and I are very close. Hopefully I'll be able to find a church but if not, I'm ok with that.
Hugs
Cats
Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Stumbling toward happiness
Posts: 4,706
Originally Posted by CatsPajamas
Fortunately, my God and I are very close.
Going to hang out with Babs in the old growth forest now.....ahhhhh what a nice thought.....
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Des Plaines,IL
Posts: 187
Originally Posted by Easeful
> I know that statements like, "I find religion divides and spirituality unites" sound profound, but they are anything but.<
I had a pastor say nearly this same thing. He added, "I feel like all of this spirituality talk is the enemy of the church." Turns out he was right.
I had a pastor say nearly this same thing. He added, "I feel like all of this spirituality talk is the enemy of the church." Turns out he was right.
Making statements like the one above are not helpful because they amount to nothing more than religion bashing, ie. religion is bad and spirituality is good. If you want to do a moral inventory of religion, then that is a different story. Religion has its strengths and weaknesses, which should not come as a surprise since most religions are created by human beings. Not all religions have a church hierarchy or something similar.
Peace.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Stumbling toward happiness
Posts: 4,706
Originally Posted by CatsPajamas
Hey, save me a stump. I'd love to join you and Babs in the old growth forest.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Des Plaines,IL
Posts: 187
Originally Posted by CatsPajamas
Without going into much more detail, suffice to say that he used his religion and HIS understanding of the Bible to control and manipulate a lot of people. During our divorce, he used the church as a means to control me more. Church people would do things in "the name of church" to try to manipulate me even more. It was downright scary. I lost a lot of good friends as a result of this mess.
You will find people in business, in politics, in anything who try to manipulate and control others. Why should religion be any different? The difference is when people are manipulative and controlling in business, we don't blame business and say it's bad. When people are manipulative and controlling in religion, we blame religion and say it's bad. I think people need to do a moral inventory here concerning religion and I can't take somebody else's inventory so I will leave it at that.
Peace.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Seeking Peace
Posts: 1,371
Originally Posted by ccirider
I think people need to do a moral inventory here concerning religion and I can't take somebody else's inventory so I will leave it at that
Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nearby
Posts: 231
>Making statements like the one above are not helpful because they amount to nothing more than religion bashing, ie. religion is bad and spirituality is good.<
hmmm, did not mean to be religion bashing. I was trying to be clever. What I was saying was in my case he was right. Once I got in touch with my own spirituality and realized how far the church had gone afield from what I feel to be the teachings of Jesus, I redirected my tithes to places that I felt were more in keeping with what Christianity should be.
hmmm, did not mean to be religion bashing. I was trying to be clever. What I was saying was in my case he was right. Once I got in touch with my own spirituality and realized how far the church had gone afield from what I feel to be the teachings of Jesus, I redirected my tithes to places that I felt were more in keeping with what Christianity should be.
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