When you can't prove it & it matters!!!
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Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 10
When you can't prove it & it matters!!!
I get so baffled with my situation with my ex-husband. I often feel out of place in recovery settings because our situation just doesn't quite fit. He really hasn't met an external substance that he didn't abuse (except gambling, thankfully). Anything else - alcohol, drugs, money, food, power, adrenaline, etc. His physical addictions are around for a few years and then he switches to something else. I knew him as a teenager and it was about smoking massive quantities of pot. Then he moved on to meth (while still doing other drugs), and spent five years in prison. When he got out, we started dating (romantic, isn't it?). I had NO self-worth. I knew that he "dabbled" in drugs, but I had NO idea what was really going on. I have spent a lot of time around alcoholics and it's harder to hide. It took me a year to really see, and by that time I was so enmeshed in him that I couldn't get myself out. I was such a prime candidate for being a codependent, like I was really just groomed for it since childhood.
After 3 or 4 years of the hellish rollercoaster of meth, I decided to leave him. Then I found out I was pregnant. Then came more denial than I ever thought I was capable of. I MARRIED HIM!!!!!! I believed that he had cleaned up! For him, that meant "moderating", something he is really good at, just a little bit here and there, no binging (I found out about it later). During the pregnancy, he began drinking, and I told myself it was okay, better than the alternative. The stress of pregnancy, moving, a new job, a really traumatic delivery and postpartum experience (and a hysterical wife).....all ended up as an excuse for him to go overboard again, pills, etc.
Did I mention that pills became his new favorite? He has always used a couple things at once, but one substance is the "main" one at the time. I left him once, and after agonizing over it for months (should I be a single mom with a little baby and have to be away from her before I am ready, or should I sacrifice my mental health and entire life, really to have some "security" with him? He made good money at the time, and when I left him I was scraping by on food stamps). We called the divorce off, tried to reconcile, and guess what? I left him again, this time for good. The divorce finalized this month. We filed "in agreement" because that was the only way I could get him to leave me alone, or so I thought.
The parenting plan in the divorce was a "safety-based" plan, one to use when drugs or alcohol are involved. The terms were that he could have all day on one day a week as long as I had access to his AA sponsor, and his drug counselor for the outpatient program he had started. That way, I could be aware of any substance abuse and he could simultaneously prove his sobriety. After a couple weeks, he stopped going to the drug program, and fizzled out on AA. He goes sporadically, and then criticizes the "recovery crowd" as if he is not one of them. And really, he's not. He gives me constant flack about how little time he spends with our daughter. I know he is not completely sober, and I even gave him a drug test once. While we were waiting for the results, he admitted that he had taken a pill earlier in the week, but then the results came back negative. My concern is that I know he is probably drinking, and still using, but is moderating and being clever enough to hide it. I could not prove in a court that it is still going on, and he can't admit that even having a parent that is not in recovery will do damage to our daughter. He thinks he should be viewed as an equal with time and parenting with her, and I will not do that.
I am agonizing over the fact that she comes home a little confused, and she repeats some things that he says to her. She is almost 3. She asked me if she could see Daddy again, and I said yes, then she said "I thought you would say no." This means that he told her that I am the one who decides it, and she's too little to understand why. She also listed off the rules for his roommates: "Mike is not supposed to be on something. Mike is not allowed to pick me up, or touch me, or hug or kiss me. Roger can't pick me up or hug or kiss me either. It's okay for Billy to hug me." While all these things are true (Billy is a troubled yet trustable guy that is staying there. I am not worried about him around my daughter as far as safety). The fact that she even has to remember or be concerned about the other people is more than I can take. She is not yet three, and there should be no one around her that isn't totally safe.
The problem is that I cannot prove any of this. Her dad is on the self-regulated, willpower way of dealing with his substance abuse, and we all know how that goes, but will it hold up in a court if I try to change the visiting terms. And to make it worse, I know that our daughter loves him, even though she can't understand why he is not good to be around. By not following through with the agreements we made about proving his sobriety, he is forcing me to take action and possibly prevent him from spending time alone with her. He is forcing me to be the "bad guy" and it will hurt our daughter and she won't understand. I am in a position of bearing the responsibility and guilt of his half-assed "recovery" and I am agonizing over it all day, every day. I am also afraid of what he might do if I do take him to court. He's not exactly rational. I thought divorcing him would give me some peace from him, but I am letting him into my head STILL. It affects my current relationship too. I am so freakin' sick!!!! These problems don't really fit into any specific recovery "zone". I don't have to live with constant drunkedness. My life savings aren't being used for meth. He isn't really up on his child support, but that's the worst of the money stuff. I don't know how to deal with this. I know I am not detached, and I am trying, and I can't get peace around this, only anxiety and dread. It's like it's never over. He is pure chaos to me, even when he's not here.
After 3 or 4 years of the hellish rollercoaster of meth, I decided to leave him. Then I found out I was pregnant. Then came more denial than I ever thought I was capable of. I MARRIED HIM!!!!!! I believed that he had cleaned up! For him, that meant "moderating", something he is really good at, just a little bit here and there, no binging (I found out about it later). During the pregnancy, he began drinking, and I told myself it was okay, better than the alternative. The stress of pregnancy, moving, a new job, a really traumatic delivery and postpartum experience (and a hysterical wife).....all ended up as an excuse for him to go overboard again, pills, etc.
Did I mention that pills became his new favorite? He has always used a couple things at once, but one substance is the "main" one at the time. I left him once, and after agonizing over it for months (should I be a single mom with a little baby and have to be away from her before I am ready, or should I sacrifice my mental health and entire life, really to have some "security" with him? He made good money at the time, and when I left him I was scraping by on food stamps). We called the divorce off, tried to reconcile, and guess what? I left him again, this time for good. The divorce finalized this month. We filed "in agreement" because that was the only way I could get him to leave me alone, or so I thought.
The parenting plan in the divorce was a "safety-based" plan, one to use when drugs or alcohol are involved. The terms were that he could have all day on one day a week as long as I had access to his AA sponsor, and his drug counselor for the outpatient program he had started. That way, I could be aware of any substance abuse and he could simultaneously prove his sobriety. After a couple weeks, he stopped going to the drug program, and fizzled out on AA. He goes sporadically, and then criticizes the "recovery crowd" as if he is not one of them. And really, he's not. He gives me constant flack about how little time he spends with our daughter. I know he is not completely sober, and I even gave him a drug test once. While we were waiting for the results, he admitted that he had taken a pill earlier in the week, but then the results came back negative. My concern is that I know he is probably drinking, and still using, but is moderating and being clever enough to hide it. I could not prove in a court that it is still going on, and he can't admit that even having a parent that is not in recovery will do damage to our daughter. He thinks he should be viewed as an equal with time and parenting with her, and I will not do that.
I am agonizing over the fact that she comes home a little confused, and she repeats some things that he says to her. She is almost 3. She asked me if she could see Daddy again, and I said yes, then she said "I thought you would say no." This means that he told her that I am the one who decides it, and she's too little to understand why. She also listed off the rules for his roommates: "Mike is not supposed to be on something. Mike is not allowed to pick me up, or touch me, or hug or kiss me. Roger can't pick me up or hug or kiss me either. It's okay for Billy to hug me." While all these things are true (Billy is a troubled yet trustable guy that is staying there. I am not worried about him around my daughter as far as safety). The fact that she even has to remember or be concerned about the other people is more than I can take. She is not yet three, and there should be no one around her that isn't totally safe.
The problem is that I cannot prove any of this. Her dad is on the self-regulated, willpower way of dealing with his substance abuse, and we all know how that goes, but will it hold up in a court if I try to change the visiting terms. And to make it worse, I know that our daughter loves him, even though she can't understand why he is not good to be around. By not following through with the agreements we made about proving his sobriety, he is forcing me to take action and possibly prevent him from spending time alone with her. He is forcing me to be the "bad guy" and it will hurt our daughter and she won't understand. I am in a position of bearing the responsibility and guilt of his half-assed "recovery" and I am agonizing over it all day, every day. I am also afraid of what he might do if I do take him to court. He's not exactly rational. I thought divorcing him would give me some peace from him, but I am letting him into my head STILL. It affects my current relationship too. I am so freakin' sick!!!! These problems don't really fit into any specific recovery "zone". I don't have to live with constant drunkedness. My life savings aren't being used for meth. He isn't really up on his child support, but that's the worst of the money stuff. I don't know how to deal with this. I know I am not detached, and I am trying, and I can't get peace around this, only anxiety and dread. It's like it's never over. He is pure chaos to me, even when he's not here.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: My House
Posts: 1,122
I have very little experience with this kind of thing (none, actually), so take what I say for what it's worth, which may be nothing, but...
Can you not prove that he's not participating in treatment? If the terms of visitation are that you have access to his treatment, and he's not getting any, then that sounds like all you would have to do is maybe get his sponsor or his counselor to back you up, maybe?
Either way, my heart is with you and your daughter.
Can you not prove that he's not participating in treatment? If the terms of visitation are that you have access to his treatment, and he's not getting any, then that sounds like all you would have to do is maybe get his sponsor or his counselor to back you up, maybe?
Either way, my heart is with you and your daughter.
President
Join Date: May 2006
Location: on our next big adventure!
Posts: 1,253
If you go back to court, your daughter would be appointed an attorney and they could interview her about what was said to her by the father. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for supervised visitation! I'd say start documenting everything that happens. If you can, record your daughter when she says these things. Go back to your attorney and ask his advice! Usually just the suspicion of him using is enough to make the court order supervised visits..... it would be their arses if something happened and they of course would want to protect themselves! Either way, talk to the attorney and see what he says!
President
Join Date: May 2006
Location: on our next big adventure!
Posts: 1,253
And, you can have specific agreements written into the visitation plan. I had it written into mine with xabf that if he was ever found to have relapsed he would be forced to give up his rights! Sounds harsh, but I refused to allow my son to go through it again!
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 10
Thanks for the advice
Hi guys. Thanks for replying. I believe it is written into the wording of the forms we used that if the conditions are not met, he loses his rights. Part of it is working up the courage to go through with this, and another part is finding that big chunk of money to hire an attorney. I didn't have one when we filed the papers (regrettfully, believe me).
What happened when your ex-boyfriend lost his visiting rights? Was the relationship just over between he and your son? I have so much mental noise around that, like I can't totally convince myself that it is the right thing to do, to totally remove him from her life. But underneath it all, I pray for that to happen. I know I am sick and being powerless when I just wish he would O.D. or something, or fall off a cliff. In my heart I believe that he will do more damage to her little psyche than good, no matter how much he loves her. Ever since her birth he has pushed her to think certain ways, or stated how he wants her to "be". It's just ridiculous. I know how it feels to be on the receiving end of that.
What happened when your ex-boyfriend lost his visiting rights? Was the relationship just over between he and your son? I have so much mental noise around that, like I can't totally convince myself that it is the right thing to do, to totally remove him from her life. But underneath it all, I pray for that to happen. I know I am sick and being powerless when I just wish he would O.D. or something, or fall off a cliff. In my heart I believe that he will do more damage to her little psyche than good, no matter how much he loves her. Ever since her birth he has pushed her to think certain ways, or stated how he wants her to "be". It's just ridiculous. I know how it feels to be on the receiving end of that.
A work in progress....
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: FREE!!!! Somewhere in the Tennessee Mountains
Posts: 1,018
Originally Posted by HealingAgain 
By not following through with the agreements we made about proving his sobriety, he is forcing me to take action and possibly prevent him from spending time alone with her. He is forcing me to be the "bad guy" and it will hurt our daughter and she won't understand.
As for worrying about hurting your daughter, she is in a lot more danger being around a bunch of guys and a father in 'half-assed' recovery then she is if his visitation is limited.
At three, she will adjust. You need to step up to the plate and do what is best for her; don't worry about him. He's a grown-up.
All said with compassion and understanding-I've been there. I have three kids with my exah. No offense meant...
Administrator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: a better place
Posts: 4,047
I think Never's advice is good...Your child is the primary concern as you so clearly know. I'm sorry you have to deal with such a crummy situation. The effects of addiction on innocent kids is always the toughest part for me to wrap my brain around. I have to trust in a higher power to protect them.
Excellent idea to speak with the attorney. I'm sending prayers for both of you. Hugs
Excellent idea to speak with the attorney. I'm sending prayers for both of you. Hugs
Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: on the lake
Posts: 335
You May Not Need An Attorney If You Document Everything Really Well. Have A Plan Of Action, Maybe Even Get The Dept Of Human Services Involved. I Don't Think They Would Allow Visitation With Someone Who Has Quit Thier Recovery Program, Using Or Not.
grateful rca
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: atlanta, ga.
Posts: 4,671
hi healingagain, the addict in my life is my hubby of 21 yrs and together we have 7 kids. only my opinion, i think that maybe you can think about doing what you know is best for you and your daughter. sounds like he is forfeiting his rights if he's not following the established plan that is already documented. i think that maybe you could focus more on protecting your daughter and let him worry about how he is to prove that he is following a plan of recovery.
maybe you could explain to your daughter in a manner that she will understand, that her maybe she can see here dad when he is a little better or something like that.
i do understand that she misses her dad, but she has you and as she grow, she'll better understand. my therapist told me once about my small kids, that they would be ok as long as i was ok. in saying that, i think maybe you could just for now, focus more on her and your sanity and safety. keeping you and yours in my prayers
maybe you could explain to your daughter in a manner that she will understand, that her maybe she can see here dad when he is a little better or something like that.
i do understand that she misses her dad, but she has you and as she grow, she'll better understand. my therapist told me once about my small kids, that they would be ok as long as i was ok. in saying that, i think maybe you could just for now, focus more on her and your sanity and safety. keeping you and yours in my prayers
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 10
So hard to see my own stuff!
Thanks all. I have spent a lot of time making any decision that has to do with him just drag on and on because I am afraid to take action. Why do I feel so freakin' wishy-washy and guilty here? I am just agonizing over it and it seems so obvious to everyone else.
I hate to say that part of me is afraid he WILL go through a treatment program, then we'll go back to court and he'll try to get more time with her again. Actually I'm afraid of so much more than that, but I'm trying to put a cap on how far into the future I worry about him in my life. It doesn't really work, but is so hard to stop.
The other part of me knows that he probably won't go to treatment and he'll just keep coming back into her life in unhealthy ways, and will cause me a lot of grief however he can. I had a counselor tell me that she was sure that he has Borderline Personality Disorder, and from what I've learned about it, I totally agree. The chances of a functional life with that and addiction are minimal, and I know that he thinks he doesn't have problems.
Listen to me just obcessing about him. I was about to say something about how much energy he has to create chaos and drama, yet I just realized how much energy I devote to just plain freaking out and worrying about him and what he might do. I suppose that would be another area for me to work on, in addition to working with the attorney.
One last fear: I'm afraid that the judge won't back me at all. That I won't be able to prove anything, and I will have to fight ugly. I resent him so much for abusing my good nature in all of this, putting me in a spot where I have to fight "dirty" or else be walked on. I wish I were stronger.
I hate to say that part of me is afraid he WILL go through a treatment program, then we'll go back to court and he'll try to get more time with her again. Actually I'm afraid of so much more than that, but I'm trying to put a cap on how far into the future I worry about him in my life. It doesn't really work, but is so hard to stop.
The other part of me knows that he probably won't go to treatment and he'll just keep coming back into her life in unhealthy ways, and will cause me a lot of grief however he can. I had a counselor tell me that she was sure that he has Borderline Personality Disorder, and from what I've learned about it, I totally agree. The chances of a functional life with that and addiction are minimal, and I know that he thinks he doesn't have problems.
Listen to me just obcessing about him. I was about to say something about how much energy he has to create chaos and drama, yet I just realized how much energy I devote to just plain freaking out and worrying about him and what he might do. I suppose that would be another area for me to work on, in addition to working with the attorney.
One last fear: I'm afraid that the judge won't back me at all. That I won't be able to prove anything, and I will have to fight ugly. I resent him so much for abusing my good nature in all of this, putting me in a spot where I have to fight "dirty" or else be walked on. I wish I were stronger.
President
Join Date: May 2006
Location: on our next big adventure!
Posts: 1,253
My son's father has actually remained clean through this time. So, there hasn't been a need to go back to court. But, when everything happened originally, he had supervised visitation for approximately 6 months with random drug testing. Now, it's at my discretion if I want him tested and I am allowed to cancel any visit if I think there's a risk.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Midwest
Posts: 66
Hi! I don't think we've "met" but welcome to SR!
My exah is a crack addict. I knew for 4 years before I filed for divorce. I, too, didn't want to be a single mother with two small children. I stayed believing I married him for life. However, after several days, months, and years at SR; I found the courage to leave my marriage after 8 years.
I was lucky enough my exah didn't have an atty during the divorce. However, I documented his EVERY move the entire time we lived together (since the time I found out about his drug use). My exah admitted to his atty (he never retained him just dragged him along until the final hearing and the atty withdrew before we went into the courthouse) that he had a drug problem and was willing to go to rehab and the whole quacking process.
Therefore, my atty and the judge were aware of his drug issues. I was awarded sole custody of the kids with him having visitation. This visitation had no schedule to follow at all. My atty told me he left it that way so I could have the final say. My exah cannot have overnight visits until he "SUCCESSFULLY" completes rehab. He was arrested for possession about 4 months after the divorce and I was so worried they would order him to rehab and then my boys would get overnight visits with him.
Needless to say, I've worried for nothing. He's still dragging his feet with his court dates (from last October) and has never been sentenced yet.
My exah will come to the house to visit but he's still in active addiction and will probably never stop using. It's sad but so true for so many. Don't get me wrong, there are several addicts who recover but I'm afraid my exah isn't one of them.
I could never imagine leaving him, breaking up my family, how was I going to make it financially? I know exactly where you're coming from and it's completely normal.
The addicts prey on our good nature and take advantage of us. It's up to us to hit our bottom when we've had enough. Let me tell you, I came to SR in Sept 2004 and finally filed for divorce in November 2005. I found out about his addiction in 2001 after our second son was born (he was two months old when I found out). I still miss the person he was but I had to continually tell myself over and over "he's not the person I married....he's a drug addict".
I can tell you I finally forgive him for all he's done. It's the only way I could move on with my life. This was just a month or so ago. I don't get as angry at him for not doing as I "think" he should in regards to his parenting responsibility. I've come to NOT depend on him and work on the matters myself. If this means I don't go to dinner with friends or run errands with two kids all the time...I do it to protect my boys. I cannot imagine anything happening to them while they are with him.
Frankly, I'm quite surprised he doesn't push the issue. I think it's due to him wanting his drugs more than anything else. I think this is true with your addict as well.
Please do what's right and what's good for the two of you. I know it's hard but trust me.....it will work out in the end. It's very, very, tough to go through but you will be much stronger and your daughter will thank you for it later.
I will keep you in my prayers and remember to take care of you!!!!
Jen
My exah is a crack addict. I knew for 4 years before I filed for divorce. I, too, didn't want to be a single mother with two small children. I stayed believing I married him for life. However, after several days, months, and years at SR; I found the courage to leave my marriage after 8 years.
I was lucky enough my exah didn't have an atty during the divorce. However, I documented his EVERY move the entire time we lived together (since the time I found out about his drug use). My exah admitted to his atty (he never retained him just dragged him along until the final hearing and the atty withdrew before we went into the courthouse) that he had a drug problem and was willing to go to rehab and the whole quacking process.
Therefore, my atty and the judge were aware of his drug issues. I was awarded sole custody of the kids with him having visitation. This visitation had no schedule to follow at all. My atty told me he left it that way so I could have the final say. My exah cannot have overnight visits until he "SUCCESSFULLY" completes rehab. He was arrested for possession about 4 months after the divorce and I was so worried they would order him to rehab and then my boys would get overnight visits with him.
Needless to say, I've worried for nothing. He's still dragging his feet with his court dates (from last October) and has never been sentenced yet.
My exah will come to the house to visit but he's still in active addiction and will probably never stop using. It's sad but so true for so many. Don't get me wrong, there are several addicts who recover but I'm afraid my exah isn't one of them.
I could never imagine leaving him, breaking up my family, how was I going to make it financially? I know exactly where you're coming from and it's completely normal.
The addicts prey on our good nature and take advantage of us. It's up to us to hit our bottom when we've had enough. Let me tell you, I came to SR in Sept 2004 and finally filed for divorce in November 2005. I found out about his addiction in 2001 after our second son was born (he was two months old when I found out). I still miss the person he was but I had to continually tell myself over and over "he's not the person I married....he's a drug addict".
I can tell you I finally forgive him for all he's done. It's the only way I could move on with my life. This was just a month or so ago. I don't get as angry at him for not doing as I "think" he should in regards to his parenting responsibility. I've come to NOT depend on him and work on the matters myself. If this means I don't go to dinner with friends or run errands with two kids all the time...I do it to protect my boys. I cannot imagine anything happening to them while they are with him.
Frankly, I'm quite surprised he doesn't push the issue. I think it's due to him wanting his drugs more than anything else. I think this is true with your addict as well.
Please do what's right and what's good for the two of you. I know it's hard but trust me.....it will work out in the end. It's very, very, tough to go through but you will be much stronger and your daughter will thank you for it later.
I will keep you in my prayers and remember to take care of you!!!!
Jen
Nature Girl
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: By The Lake
Posts: 60,328
Healing Again, regardless of how he would feel or how you would feel for bringing out the issue...the only thing that matters here is the safety and well being of your child.
No matter how much she wants to see her daddy, if he is using when she is around or when he picks her up, she is in serious danger. She's too young to look out for herself, so you have to look out for her.
My thoughts are if you document as much as you can and tell a judge what your instinct is telling you, even without proof...then he could order drug screening before your child goes with him or prevent him from seeing her until he can show some serious recovery.
Again, your daughter's safety is the most important thing in all this, please watch out for her.
Hugs
No matter how much she wants to see her daddy, if he is using when she is around or when he picks her up, she is in serious danger. She's too young to look out for herself, so you have to look out for her.
My thoughts are if you document as much as you can and tell a judge what your instinct is telling you, even without proof...then he could order drug screening before your child goes with him or prevent him from seeing her until he can show some serious recovery.
Again, your daughter's safety is the most important thing in all this, please watch out for her.
Hugs
Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bristol TN/VA
Posts: 12,431
In retrospect and hard knocks...I, too, did not want to alienate or keep my kids from their dad.
Now I wish I would have moved good and far away enough that he wouldn't have impacted them at all.
I was advised such at the time...but just couldn't wouldn't hear it and wrap my mind around it.
Now I wish I would have moved good and far away enough that he wouldn't have impacted them at all.
I was advised such at the time...but just couldn't wouldn't hear it and wrap my mind around it.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Midwest
Posts: 66
My breaking point was my then-4-year-old showing me where a crack house was. He and his brother (who was 3 at the time) evidently went there with their daddy but they stayed in the van???? WTF????
I couldn't do it any longer!
Jen
I couldn't do it any longer!
Jen
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