drainedwife

i was just doing some researh on the internet and discovered that the drugs are not the cause of my ah's abuse towards me...

i really believed that the drugs were causing it and if he got treatment for the drugs, then eveything else would be taken care of as well.

what an eye opener for me...what a wake up call...i feel like "where have i been that i didnt know this" why havent my therapists told me this....maybe they did in a round about way but didnt spell it out for me.

but they are 2 seperate issues, 2 seperate problems. they must be some underlying tendancies for him to be abusive and maybe since... the drugs heightens his anger, it makes it worse...who knows...
but it is pretty scary. idont feel llike i was abused before the drug use...maybe i didnt realize it...but it definalty was not anything like what it has been.

any comments?????

oneeyeopen

I always struggle with that "It's the addiction talking" stuff. I feel that it doesn't matter if they were high or drunk, they are still responsible for what they are doing. But, I know what you mean about that abuse/drug use thing. the only time I have felt like the abf was nearing a line towards emotional abuse was in the aftermath of a coke binge. and honestly, I think there is something that lies within him that is brought out by it. Is it something that would turn up anyway if drugs were never involved? I don't know.

the abf (who was at betty ford a long time ago) told me that the first thing they tell you there is that you are responsible for everything you did. No excuse for the state you were in.

i remember there was a woman here a while ago who wrote about how her husband got clean and she realized that she just didn't like him, that things she thought were traits brought on by addiction were in fact things he had when clean. So I guess they can be separate.

I fell like I focus so much on the problem of addiction that I ignore other problems in the relationship. I figure, the large one needs to be tackled first before any of the others can be dealt with.

no reason to work out a lot of other things but still have this huge problem over the whole thing.

Lovestoomuch

There is a very good sticky at the top of the page "For Abused Women". I suggest you read it. I was abused for 10 long years with my first daughter's dad. It's not always physical. It usually starts out verbal......mental.........till your broken down into someone you hardly recognize. This man was not an addict.........he was just an a$$hole.

Live

oh, yeah! I made the same mistake. I just posted a little bit about it in your other thread.

I'll check back with you but to sum up....you can and may love them the rest of your life, I do mine. But I have to do it from afar. It would have killed me.

Really. How crazy was I when I had a 2 wk check in agreement with my daughter and had told her that if I disappeared my body would never be found because I would be strangled and deep in a pond or lake that no one knew about and my body would never be found.

What saved me was my DV counselor and a number of very important books.
I have left that life and cannot remember readily the books but they are very important. I found that alot of the things, subtle things that I never spoke about were very common tactics.

And...SR. They really helped SAVE my life. I made an agreement, like a sobriety agreement of counting days of no contact. I had to check in every day. Something in me wouldn't let me let my support friends down. Getting to day 30 was Hell. But then I had support, books, resources, counseling, SR......and eventually I just moved way the far hell away.

my truth,
live

rose

I think what happens is the drugs enhance a lot of there character. My husband became so abusive with the drugs...but as time went on with him not here, I soon began to see the traits of it through my whole married life with him.

I have a long way to go, but I sure have started to see just how controlled I was and how demeaning he was to me. I never had the nerve to strive...anything I wanted to try he would shoot it down, so I just learned to except his word on everything. With him no longer here and it is going on 4years now, I had to force myself to make decisions and it was a real battle, I was scared out of my mind that I was going to make all the wrong decisions. But I am still here today and made what decisions I had to make to keep some sort of life for me and my boys.

I saw my husband about 2 months ago, he wasn't in his high state, somewhere in between his normal and high, he was talking to me like he had before the drugs...I have grown so much I really had to shake my head, thinking I took this crap!

With each day you will get stronger.

Rose

best

Drugs and alcohol us can magnify what is already there. Drugs and alcohol can take away what ever control we have to keep our negative self in line as well.
Add alcohol and I can become a real jerk very fast. Yes I do need to have such a tendency inside of me before the alcohol was added but I would say that the rule isn't 100% as alcohol and drugs can turn a quiet, calm person into a monster or it can even turn a monster into a quiet and calm person.
No matter... when we work a recovery such as AA or NA and work it to our best... the program helps treat the whole person... Mind, Body, and Spirit.
Still always comes down to the same end results....
Time and actions over time give the best answers one way or the other.
Many abusive people could do well with counseling as well. Anger management programs or the such that could help them find and deal with the root of where their anger comes from that brings out abuse.

Ok enough about him.

What about your recovery?
What are you willing to accept or not accept should be your guide. When, where or how shouldn't matter... a boundary set for you is set no matter why he does what ever requires a boundary to be set.

drainedwife

i have to say that my ah never put me down or discouraged me from doing things. he may have been somewhat controlling in other ways, but very subtle. for certain things i would put his needs first and not think mine were as important, or i just didnt want to get into it with him, so i wouldnt press the issue..and i guess that is a flaw in my charachter and may have to do with low self esteem...

best

Or it could just be that of a kind loving person being a good wife.
Yes look over the reasons why you may have done things or not done things...sometimes the answer is...because it was the right thing to do.
If you find any other answer then you will know areas you may want to look into finding solutions. Doing right when all around you is doing wrong is still doing right.

Live

I am in total disagreement with the thinking in this thread.

Alcohol/drugs make for some crazy behaviors..........but abuse really is a separate issue. And addiction is far more treatable.

I know BEST studies alot, I respect that. I studied this out of necessity and what I learned is not enouraging at all.

Live

drained wife, many are well intentioned. I just knew that if my love would get clean the rest could be resolved. Nothing much supports that.
Go back and read your DV info again. And again. And again.


Do you want to die?

Lovestoomuch

As an abuse survivor myself I have to agree. My ex went to "Anger Management" not once, but 4 times and always managed to abuse me again............stone cold sober at that!

Live

BEST.....I hold you in highest regards, please always know that.
But.....laughing iron sharpens iron, your words......we are going to often disagree.

I honestly think you are such a good man that you don't know, can't imagine the reality or cycle of the abusive personality.

I have as high an honor of marriage and commitment as you do. That is a great part of what almost got me killed.

I had no idea that day that I was walking into a fight, leave alone a night in jail, we just agreed to meet up to settle something. Night in jail???? What am I saying? The night I almost died by strangulation by an enraged abusive personality.

I spent years trying to make sense of it. It wasn't the addiction. It WASN"T the addiction.

For awhile I settled upon borderline personality disorder. Childhood abuse. Mother possibly sychophrenic. (sp?) Homosexual rape?

In the end it doesn't matter.

The all important "WHY" doesn't matter.

I imagine that many an alcoholic loved their alcohol but had to leave it?
Maybe why matters here?

I am always open to your insight.

But the Why in abuse doesn't matter. We can't join a support group and give it up etc. Okay, abuse is a problem so we will address this with a program to overcome it.
Abuse just isn't like that.

Because I Love you BEST.....try to imagine teaching a sociopath a conscience?
Some disabilities cannot be overcome. Even with grace. And I LOVE grace!

Indigo's youngest son is 25 and has the mentality of a 3 yr old. She loves him and we can send her all our hopes and your prayers, but he is not going to overcome this handicap.

All regards BEST, but I worry. Because there is no right way, there is no way to deal with an abusive personality.

I don't know about alcoholism. I don't have that tendency. I just loved one. However, I will NEVER truly understand.
And unless you have had every thread of your being unwound in abuse, subtely over time, one cannot understand.
It happened to me and I still cannot understand. All I can do is accept.

Drained.......you may think you know what is coming up next, that you know the loop, that you are prepared and you can handle it. IT IS NOT TRUE AND REAL!

best

Live
I grew up around it. My childhood household was filled with it from time to time but not from my father.
I also have a sister who lived through many years of hiding it from people. (30 years of marriage before she said enough)
I also know my own inner self and what it took to get me where I am today.
I have never been physical in my abuse but there were times I came real close.
Verbal and emotional... Yes I know them well.

To give my opinion I would say...run for the hills and don't look back.
To give of my experiences... I will say and have always said.... Let actions and time tell each and every one of us what kind of changes have taken place (if any)
An abusive person, an alcoholic, an addict, an enabling codie.... Not one of them will change anything till that person seeks to change what they know is wrong.
An abusive person can change *if they seek and want the answers and ways needed to change* I know two that changed and I know two that I don't think will ever change...no matter how many times the courts say...take another anger management class.

Ok those are the facts as I have experienced them.

If I think only of the two that didn't change, I would say...that no one will ever change. (anger management, AA, NA, Counselors ... nothing works for the person not wanting to change)
If I think only on the two that did change, I would say that all people can and do change. (and they can But..."IF" they want to and seek answers and work their program.)
The answer can only be found the same way as always... time and actions over time.

Do you wait for the change or do you cut ties? If so how long? From what distance? With what boundaries?
That is not for me to answer. If there is a physical abuse... the wise counsel of shelters and abuse support systems I would suggest following fully though.

Live

Thanks, dear one! Yeah, that is you BEST. Daggonit, I think the world of you!

Yeah, I agree...let the wise counsel of shelters and abuse support systems educate and guide!

But...and with me isn't there always a but....the statistics.....are really frightening!
Most women are killed by their husbands and lovers. Most of these are when they are trying to free themselves. When we start recognizing it, we are in the most danger. THIS is a gender issue. This is a fact.

Darn, I am sorry you grew up with any of this. I wish you hadn't. I like to think of you as.....don't hit me.....but one of the saints. I don't care how much you drank or what you did. I know you NOW.

I will argue and debate with you past time for the cows to come home but RESPECT, I always have respect for you. Why? Because of your integrity!

Y'know....I just married for the 2d time (first time 17yrs, 13 yrs single) almost 2 years ago. And my marriage is so sacred that by current standards I am a real prude.
Except for a couple of things that seem odd to others but not to us because we have 100% trust.

But when it comes to abuse......to be honest.....I think of being dead. I am lucky to be alive.! Crazier, I loved that man, I still love that man and after a long time of no contact we are respectful friends and we still love each other. I still love him! But safety first! I would only embarass myself telling how much and how long it took me to learn that!

But by becoming friends, I have learned ALOT. I learned alot about how he deals with people, and thinks, and his girlfriends. Holy cow! One tried to shoot him! And my friend emailed me about it right away and I knew he had instigated it! She has the prison/probation for it.

I'd ask forgiveness but I love too many vets to have such qualms......I wanted to shoot him many times to save my life and the only thing that stopped me was my daughter telling me she still needed her mother.

I think you know way way more about addiction and alcoholism than I will ever understand! I know so! But on abuse, I am pulling rank......we can't afford to see where the boundaries lies. Because it really may be a tombstone. THAT is what DV taught me!

I didn't want to leave.....I just had to. Against my will. Again, much like a substance addiction. I attended SR everyday counting my sobriety (no contact) and then moved 1000 miles away......because I didn't trust myself. Just like a newly sober person doesn't hang in bars.

Marriage is sacred. What God has joined together, let no man put asunder!

But in these abusive relationships, I have observed that it is unilateral.

See......I think neither one of us believes in divorce! But maybe we ought first to determine what marriage is?

I know LOVE is in Corinthians 13....wink, wink.

Okay.......I think this woman's life is in danger. Same as War. Same as WWII or Korea or Vietnam or.....

And, anyway.....I still love that man. I still tell him so. Not only was he abusive (#1), he was/is alcoholic and his heart is at 20%. He has all ready outlived his prognosis.
My husband and I are going to visit him in Aug/Sept.....if he is still alive?!

Corinthians.....love never dies.

But when you life is in danger you better at least shake the dust off your feet and leave town!

Thank you for hearing me!

love in innocence,
Tena

Latte

I'm the A in the relationship and I can't imagine physically hurting anyone but I know it happens. My A father emotionally abused my by virtually ignoring me for years. I'm married to a man who does exactly that, he just doesn't use.

For me, I'll go when I can. I am still finishing an outpatient rehab and I need to put my sobriety first.

Luckily I have some awesome support through my rehab. I know he is also waiting for the ball to drop because this is my second time around but my first time in rehab. I have to believe that as I build the bridges he will cross them.

I hope you find the peace you need.

cinderellawkids

I wanted to add theres different levels of abuse and sometimes the long term most dangerous are the ones some of us start asying "Oh its not that bad, Im not punched, ect.) Because many times sadly it is the subtle abused, a push or shove here and there, taht end up missing and dead and noone had a clue. Some of us get so attracted to the sorries after that we forget, deny and block the horrible.

In the experiences Ive encountered its usually anger from within, the same things that spur the pain for the drug abuse in the first place.

For me th e excuse I always gave was I was abusive too, and sadly I was just as bad, Anger and abuse too can come a family disease. Watch the kids that have seen things and how they act, the start acting out, yelling and shoving the same way.

duet_4-8

Me, too. This book:

'Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men' by Lundy Bancroft (a therapist who works in an abusers program) opened my eyes and my mind to the fact that my ex is an abuser, period. Drugs or no drugs.
__________________________________

Here is some wisdom from this book:

The role that alcohol and drugs play in abusiveness is greatly misunderstood. A majority of abusers are not addicts, and even those who are mistreat their partners even when they are not using.

Addiction does not cause partner abuse, and recovery from addiction does not cure it, although a man's addictions can contribute in important ways to his cruelty or volatility. Ironically, it is not uncommon for abusers to actually get worse when in addiction recovery. There are many similarities in addicts and abusers, such as:

-Escalation

-Denial, minimization, and blaming

-Choosing approving peers

-Lying and manipulating

-Lack of predictability

-Defining roles for family members

-High rates of relapse

Differences in addiction and abuse include:

-Abusers don't 'hit bottom' unless it is in a legal sense. Abuse is not self-destructive, but it is highly destructive to others. Your life and sanity may slide down the tubes due to the way he treats you, but his won't.

-Addiction has short-term rewards (quick, easy pleasure and relief from emotional pain), but these rewards are usually relatively short-lived as the addicts life spins out of control. Abuse can be rewarding to the abuser for a life time. Abusers gain multiple benefits through their behavior that do no damage to them, only to others.
__________________________________________________ ______

Abuse is a problem that lies entirely within the abuser.....his thinking, his attitudes, his beliefs. Chronic mistreatment gets people to doubt themselves. When someone has invaded your identity in this way enough times, you naturally start to lose your balance. Lundy names these hallmarks of an abuser's mentality:

1) He is controlling. This control comes in many different forms, some more obvious than others.

2) He feels that he is entitled to special rights and priviliges that do not apply to his partner in the areas of physical, emotional, or sexual caretaking, and believes his partner should always defer to his wishes. He considers himself above criticism or accountability for his behavior.

3) He twists things into their opposites. ("I had to do it because she.....insert whatever here...")

4) He disrespects his partner and considers himself superior.

5) He confuses love and abuse. What he calls 'love' is more often a desire to have you devote your life to keeping him happy; the desire to possess and control you.

6) He is manipulative. He changes moods abruptly and frequently. He denies the obvious about what he is doing or feeling. He convinces you that what he wants you to do is best for you. He gets you to feel sorry for him. He gets you to blame yourself or others for what he does. He uses confusion tactics in arguments. He lies and misleads you about his actions, desires, and reasons for doing things. He tries to turn others against you.

7) He strives to have a good public image. Part of how he gets his power is by looking good in public.

8) He feels justified. He is a master at excuse-making. Everything is someone else's fault-usually yours.

9) He denies and minimizes his abuse. A woman can feel that she is losing her mind-or develop real psychiatric symptoms-if the obvious realities of her life are denied repeatedly by her partner.

10) He is possessive. He has a sense of ownership of you.

Abuse grows from attitudes and values, not feelings. The roots are ownership, the trunk is entitlement, and the branches are control.

Abuse and respect are opposites; abusers cannot changes unless they overcome their core of disrespect toward their partners.

Abusers are far more conscious of what they are doing than they appear to be. Their behaviors are driven by their core attitudes.

Abusers are UNWILLING to be nonabusive, not unable. They do not want to give up power and control.

You are not crazy. Trust your perceptions of how your abusive partner treats you.

Lovestoomuch

I need to look for that book!

Live

First, Cinder makes a very insightful point. It begins ever so subtly. And each day it becomes a little more normal, a little more ingrained. They are charming, manipulative, passionate and fun. So we disregard this. And we decide to let that go.
We make excuses. We try to accommodate. But, somehow it is never enough.

Geez, if they started out acting like a-holes, we wouldn't have given them the time of day or went out with them!

Thank you for the book quote...it was one of them I was trying to remember and definitely worth the read!

According to my exabf he claims to have learned alot from our relationshp.
Based on chatting with him for the last few years I wonder what it is he learned?

Other than if he says one wrong thing to me...and I guess in many ways I am his best friend, because I don't judge anymore...he will never get to talk to me again.

We also have to look at the trade-offs we are making and what we are getting from it.

Every morning he woke me with 3 menus in mind and asked me which I wanted him to prepare for dinner. I liked being spoiled like that!

Remeber the honeymoon phase.....all lovely....he could be the most wonderful man on earth for about two weeks.

Confusing.....damned right.

But boy did I pay the price! I am truly glad I am not an undiscovered body in a pond or lake. Because I believe that was entirely as possible as his cooking a lovely dinner.

Then there is realization, shock, anger, depression, mourning, much self doubt. Fear.

Fear. Yes, you might be stalked. At work. Anywhere. You may wake up in the middle of the night to see him standing over your bed. ETC ETC.

This is a living nightmare.

My advice...keep your mouth shut if you are thinking of moving on.

LOL.....he kept all the money....but I had a $5 bill tucked into my shoe. That is all I had been able to save.
He took me shoe shopping. I tried on a pair of shoes...and damn there was that money for him to see! He asked what is that. I said my savings account. He just laughed at me. Very funny. Where was I going to go and how far on $5??????
It was a gleam of triumph for him in his eyes.

He would even take me to the DV counselor! Because it was me who had a problem and needed counseling!

I am the one who bit him on the hand after all. Nevermind it was covering my nose and mouth and I was suffocating! I "needed" anger management!

mooselips

The bottom line is:
It doesn't matter.

What IS important is...get the focus off of him and back on you.
Don't even worry about what causes the abuse, think about what YOU want.

Where do you want to be 6 months, 6 years from now?

Make a plan, and step by step utilize that plan to get what YOU want.


Hugs, and bunches of prayers,