This may be controversial....

Old 05-20-2007, 11:55 AM
  # 41 (permalink)  
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and only reflects my views but I have been thinking a lot on this subject lately. We say that the addict lives in darkness. We talk about them finding the light and us too. A HP can restore us to sanity. That our HP is there waiting for us to seek the light. So is the other side "the devil". I believe that addiction is the devil on earth. Addiction is living in hell, losing your soul. The addict talks about the "hole in their soul" that needs to be filled with something and that something is a drug that steals what is left of their soul. Would welcome others opinions on this. Seeing the life my daughter is willing to live and the things she is willing to do to get her drug, I have to think that there is evil there somewhere. Marle

ps. I almost didn't post this because I hate to make reference to the devil. And I do believe that addicts are sick. I know that science has shown this. But if a HP can restore them to sanity, then is not the insanity caused by evil to begin with. I also believe that when I start to hate the addict I am buying into evil thinking too. Don't know but would be interested to hear others opinions.
Marle what a great thread!!!

As a recovering alkie/addict for many years now I have often said, "I don't have to worry about going to hell when I die, I have already been there through the years I drank and used."

I can tell you that there is hope for your daughter, honest. Unfortunately she has to find her own way. That is part of the hell of addiction. As much as others (family, spouse, friends, etc) want to help us, they can't. I personally had to take this affliction to the max, I knew I was going to die, if I stayed drinking and using, and I knew I was going to die if I tried to stop (withdrawals), but decided I wanted to die sober and clean.

So..............I have you and your daughter in my daily prayers, hopefully real soon she will take HP down off the shelf and ask for help.

Love and hugs,
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Old 05-20-2007, 12:06 PM
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I believe that evil lurks everywhere.
I also believe that the first time a person uses drugs it is a choice,
not so after that.
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Old 05-20-2007, 12:07 PM
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Replying to the OP

Marle I'm replying to your OP. I totally agree, and that's how I've framed my experience in dealing with my XAH since the beginning. I'm not religious in the least, wasn't raised going to church etc etc. But addiction is evil, and my XAH is a lost soul - it's the only way for me to understand what has happened.
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Old 05-20-2007, 12:16 PM
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Laurie, My mom has a saying "We live our hell on earth" She has had a lot of pain in her life. When I was younger I used to laugh at her, but as I get older I understand what she means. Hugs and thanks for the prayers. Marle
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Old 05-20-2007, 12:36 PM
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Palm, My mother-in-law died just before my daughter started her experimenting with drugs. My daughter was her only grandchild. She had lost an older son to alcoholism. I know that she would have found a way to love my daughter even with her addiction but I am glad that she went to her grave believing that her granddaughter was on a good path in life. I often like to think that she is now my daughter's guardian angel and is protecting her and if something should happen to my daughter that she will be there to guide her to heaven. Hugs, Marle
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Old 05-20-2007, 12:50 PM
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marle, i remember the time when everybody had given up on me especially my ah family. i've heard my ah say that he wished i was dead, isn't that something. i feel that some of my family may have had some of the same thoughts as you, but my hp had a different plan for my life and i believe that only he knew how to get me to the place that he predestined me to be. i had to go through a lot of bumps in the road to get here, i got cuts and scrapes but he guided me through, don't know how long your daughter has been out there but i don't believe that god is not behind the scene working on getting her to a better place.

we don't always see god at work i know but are we suppose to be able to see everything that he do? i think that faith is not always seen, its just believing that all WILL work out for the good.
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Old 05-20-2007, 12:57 PM
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Teke, If I have gained anything from addiction it is the appreciation of the words hope and faith. I have always had a very logical, skeptical mind and was not always sure that I believed in God when I was younger. Now I know without a doubt that He exists. Also if my daughter's addiction brings her someday to a place where she can be as beautiful as you and the other recovering addicts that I have met here then it will all be worth it. I don't believe that we, addicts and codies alike, can go through what we go through and not come out on the other side a lot wiser and a lot better people for having come through the pain. Hugs, Marle
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Old 05-20-2007, 02:14 PM
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I just got off the phone with my as at rehab. He's feeling very depressed and he aches. He said he never felt this bad because he was always medicated. They just took him off the suboxone about 2 days ago. He said to me why do I have to be the one that has the addictive personality in the family. I told him that in life everyone has a cross to bear. Some have chronic back pain, or some are crippled and in wheelchairs, etc. I said this is your cross, and you just have to learn to resist the evil of his addiction, and to really appreciate the good things life has to offer.

He said he just wants to feel normal again. I told him he has to be strong and fight this thing. He said he realizes that he will be fighting it for the rest of his life. I really feel bad for him and others with this terrible disease. I hope he makes it. I pray he makes it.
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Old 05-20-2007, 02:24 PM
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I agree. My belief is that that hole in their sole is because they need HP to fill it. Thats how the whole AA thing started out, isn't it? Those who found HP and walked the 12 steps.
Thanks for the post!
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Old 05-20-2007, 03:09 PM
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yes, I believe stupidity. Anyone who knowling takes chemicals KNOWING what it will do it stupid! What is your opinion? Are you a parent?
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Old 05-20-2007, 03:13 PM
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Well, I'm a parent.
And since my son started using drugs at 14 years old, I can assure you that he did NOT know what they would do.
He was ignorant. He did not know.
He was a risk taker.
He was even foolish, maybe.
But, he was not stupid. No, I don't agree.

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Old 05-20-2007, 03:22 PM
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He wasn't taught what drugs do at school? My daughter did volunteer work in the ER where I work. She saw the strung out people come in and knew what had happened to them. I know here in Texas kids are taught about drugs and what they do from 1st grade up. Sadly, some like my daughter, don't listen. So that's not stupid?
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Old 05-20-2007, 03:28 PM
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I agree with Teach
I am also a parent. My RAD starting using around age 15. She was not stupid. She made a very bad choice and had a very trusting heart believing her "friends" were telling her the truth about the drug she about to try. Also wanting to fit in with a crowd. Actually, she did not want to fit in with the crowd she was in.(The very smart kids). To her that was a put down.

She made bad choices, but I do not feel that she is/was "stupid"
All this said IMHO

Also, on Marle's originally post. Someone once told me that if the devil could not "get to you" he would go after your children who were not as strong. Sometimes I do think about this. The devil would know that my faith would be tested by bad things happening to my children.
Kinda reminds me of the ScrewTape Letters written by CS Lewis.
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Old 05-20-2007, 03:38 PM
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No, it's not stupid, imho.
Trevor did go through the DARE program.
And I fully remember when he came home, and talked about how the police officer taught them about shooting up marijuana! See, that's the problem with the drug programs. They are not taught by teachers. And non-teachers, (for the most part), do NOT know how to teach concepts. This officer gave so much information in class that there was "interference" in the brains of the students. Shooting up and marijuana should have never been taught at the same time! Yes, it is really true -- not everyone can teach, just because they've been to school. It's more than just talking to kiddies!

But, learning somehting intellectually, (even when it's done right!), is not the same as knowing it. How many brilliant people do you know that don't have an ounce of common sense?

Peer pressure, fitting in, and believing the wrong people play into it too, as havehope said.

And I'm sorry but, to call a 14 year old who makes a very bad error in judgement "stupid" is cruel. ALL 14 year olds make errors in judgement; some worse than others. But, I can assure you, they ALL do! Kiddies have no concept of long term consequences. They have no concept of their own demise. They all think they are going to live forever. That's one of the reasons kids take such risks. "It won't happen to me," is a common thought in young teens, and even older ones. Trevor's best friend just died from an overdose, for example, at 27. I know he didn't think that would happen when he started doing heroin at 16 years old!
So, are all kiddies stupid too?

Again, I very much disagree with you. I will say though, that it sounds like it's hurt talking, to be so harsh about a child's bad mistake. I hope you do find peace.
And that's all I'll have to say about this issue.

I wish you Shalom!
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Old 05-20-2007, 03:43 PM
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I have a different story. When my oldest son started getting in all kind of trouble as a teenager, I was trying everything to educate him. I knew what he was headed for. I took him to the edge of town, homeless section and showed him what this stuff does to people. I offered to let him out of the car so he could get to know these people because they were going to become his "family" if things didn't change with him.

I then talked to a police officer who took my son to a jail that was actually no longer being used, it was empty. He let my son go into one of the cells and he shut the barred door, asking him what it felt like to be in a small cell and how would he like to be in that cell every day for years.

Also, I used to be a performer. I would do community service shows at the local mental hospital. I took him along. Many of the patients were drug users who had lost their ability to think and function. They were the ones slapping the backs of their heads and mumbling to themselves. (they got kicked to the streets every time there was a state cutback, and wound up in the previously mentioned part of town)
I tried everything to show him what drugs and alcohol do to people if they choose to do it.

In every instance of his "education", he would shrug it off as if it would never happen to HIM.
He's 28yrs old, still drugging and is now in jail.

I think, that even with all the education in the world, it won't make a difference if their eyes and hearts are not opened by it.
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Old 05-20-2007, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by caileesnana View Post
yes, I believe stupidity. Anyone who knowling takes chemicals KNOWING what it will do it stupid! What is your opinion? Are you a parent?
To my 3 pd dog and 20 pd cat, Yes I am....

To your question no I have 1 year 6+ months clean from Crystal Meth (Ice).
My opinion? Am I or was I "STUPID"...... NO, Absolutely not.
I made a "Stupid Decision" but "I" am not stupid.

Did I have "ANY" idea what the reprecussions were going to be? Hell no...
I was brought up to believe if you weren't "Thin" you weren't much.
Not by my mom, that's just my beliefs, in my world, that is what I was
taught. Having an eating disorder since I can remember may make me
stupid to some people, so be it.
My best friend came to me with "HER" miracle drug. Took her "THREE"
days to convince me to try it, how much weight I would lose. All that
I saw was a Happy girl, who did not have to sleep, who Looked "Great"
and had lost a whole lot of weight. I didn't know what meth was made
of or how bad it was for you. I knew heroin was bad, I would have
never done that, but I hadn't heard much about meth, except you would
lose weight. Losing weight was all I could see, and as soon as I lost
the weight, I was going to stop. Period. That is what I thought...
And that is truly what I believed. I had No idea of the hell I was bringing
to myself.

So do I think I'm stupid? Ask me that a year and a half ago, and I would
have said yes and was ready to kill myself because of how strongly I did
believe that.

Today, No I know I'm not stupid. I do take responsibility for what I did,
and the choices I made. I made a bad choice, but no I'm not stupid.
There are a lot of "Me's" out there. I could be anyone's daughter.
We are a weight obsessed culture right now. It wasn't only my
best friend who was doing meth to lose weight, I think I was the
only who was not.

But I am honestly okay with anyone who thinks I am stupid, or
anyone else is stupid for that choice. You have the right to feel
the way you do, just like I do. I'm not trying to change your opinion, I was
really just wondering.
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Old 05-20-2007, 03:50 PM
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Thank you for sharing...
You remain an inspiration and a source of hope....

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Old 05-20-2007, 04:28 PM
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Disclaimer *this is just my opinion*
human beings, especially children and young adults, are risk takers, if we werenít, we wouldnít take first steps, ride bikes, make friends, fall in love, leave home, give birth to and raise children, climb mountains, fly aeroplanes, change jobs, grow old. All of these things carry risk, and this behaviour is in all of us to different degrees and expressed in different ways, mistakes allow us the opportunity to grow and learn.

This is the way human beings are wired (created if you like), part of this is a belief (when we are young especially) that we are invincible, immortal, that those who came before us know nothing, and a tendency to absolutely refuse to learn from the experience of those who went before us (I know I did) Ė its all part of what it takes to become an adult, part of the human experience.

There are many reasons why people experiment with drugs: I took a fair amount when I was younger because it was fun, luckily for me when they werenít so much fun, and when I grew out of them and got bored (just as I no longer play with dolls) I stopped. I know this isnít the case for everyone, and NOW I realise that I am lucky that this is the case for me. I also realise that there are drugs that are practically 100% guarenteed to be addictive to most of the population and thank my lucky stars that I never tried them (crack etc).

I guess what Iím trying to say is I certainly donít believe people who become addicted are stupid, I donít even think that the decision to try drugs is necessarily a stupid decision, many people do (myself included) and walk away unscathed: the old chestnut: hindsight is 20/20 applies.

I'm not advocating drug taking - just saying that risky behaviour and decisons are part of what human beings are. Education and explaining/discussing with people just won't stop everyone from doing it, just as people will still insist on climbing Everest/going to the North pole - despite the blatently obvious risks. This doesn't mean its futile to educate, but it also doesn't mean people are stupid for not taking it on board.
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Old 05-20-2007, 04:45 PM
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So what excuse is there for the older men who prey upon the young, vulnerable girls that may/may not have self esteem issues--weight, learning disabilities. A 27 yo man w/ a 15 yo girl is stupid, wrong, whatever you want to call it. Just like now, a 23 yo young girl w/ a 30 something drug dealer. It is wrong and society sits back and watches. Sorry I offened anyone w/ the stupid word, but stupid, stupid behavior, whatever, the out come is the same. However, there were a couple who sent PM that agreed, sad they can't voice it out loud.

Blessings to all
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Old 05-20-2007, 04:50 PM
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To DOne w/ it--

I am happy you are doing so well. I'm sorry if I offended you. I still know my daughter knew better and did it anyway. As a parent I pray you never know the living hell we go through watching our children destroy their lives. I am happy you are done with it and hope you put you knowledge of what drugs can do to good use. Maybe some young girl w/ self doubt will listen to you, they certainly don't listen to their parents.
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