minnie

Figure something out? This isn't a negotiation, hon.

If someone puts down their responsibilities, it does NOT mean that I have to pick them up. Her illness - her decision on treatment/coping strategies/following docs advice etc. You are babying her and it is doing her no favours whatsoever. Treat her like the adult she is, for all your sakes.

ASpouse

God minnie, I love your ability to see through all the BS and call it what it is! You're the best ...

GettingFree

I am learning more and more about unconditional love. It is what I want from, and what I want to give in my relationship. I have been where you are with 'these exceptions' and it doesn't work.

Something cannot be pretty close but still have major exceptions. Do you see the contradiction? You are in a dance, the dance of 'if only'.

My own personal opinion is that it's the latter. Most therapists I've come in contact with will not touch the underlying deep issues of childhood wounds and the hard work of healing and recovery until someone who is using is sober. It's called stablizing, and it's critical to to be able to see what is really there and underneath.

And Minnie is right -- you are doing her no favors by relieving her of responsibilty for herself, especially when she has a child. You are also relieving her of responsibility for her child.

I apologize if I sound a little harsh here, but if the only person affected in the circumstances were you as another adult, well, you are an adult and can decide if you choose to be with her in this very unstable and unpredictable place (and she will continue to be unpredictable and unstable as long as she sees alcohol and pot use as no biggie.)

Her child doesn't have a choice. And he is extremely vulnerable. He deserves to have a mother who is emotionally available and present and committed to her recovery. As long as you pick it up for her, she has a way to avoid the most painful truth -- she's not only hurting herself, she's abdicating her role as a mother and hurting her child.

ASpouse

What a great post GF ..... the "dance of 'if only'" I like that.

Cynay

There is something else I want to point out here too that I always worried about.

My first ex was a big pot smoker .... Im not going to debate if it better, equal to, or worse then Alcohol but the fact of the matter is its Illegal... against the law and if your driving down the road and its in your car the police are not going to care much if its yours or hers. She is putting herself, her child and you into a position of possible legal ramifications.

As far as the other... I agree with Minnie, I personally dont think this should be an issue for discussion. If she wants to set boundries and guidlines she has not right to ask you to enforce them... You are not her father and that puts you in a VERY difficult position.

ASpouse

Yep, that's what I said.

This sounds like the "Knight in Shining Armor Syndrome" ........

Jazzman

I was a pot smoker but quit when my 1st wife and I were talking about having children. I just couldn't see myself as a Dad gettting stoned! Besides, I had started back to school at that time and figured it was time to outgrow this teenage phase that I had let spill into my early 20s.

M would still get high and I would minimize her pot smoking as , well hey, at least she isn't getting drunk!

But still I go back to this, what the heck is a parent doing still getting stoned for cryin out load!

robina

You sound like a reasonable and flexible and accomodating person. (you are a nice guy).

Unfortunately, she is an active alcoholic and by not setting really firm boundaries, you are ennabling her.

It is going to take a lot of work (on you!!, not her) to get you to a point where you have the strength to stop ennabling her and start living your own life.

Think about it - you are getting a big payoff from her troubles. You get to step in and rescue her. You get to feel important and needed. The problem is that sooner or later, family members and loved ones start losing themselves. The pain becomes too great for us to handle.

That is when we end up here, and in Al-anon and in therapy. None of us are stronger than the disease of alcoholism. Perhaps you are beginning to realize that.

Keep coming back.

es808

Definitely a bit of knight in shining armor syndrome here.

As for the parents getting stoned thing I agree with you on that as well as the legal issues, disregarding the pot vs. alcohol thing. However her parents get stoned and have since she was a child. She says when she was 5 she learned that when they were driving if she said she was cold they would roll up the windows and she would "feel funny." So she doesn't really have any good model for being a parent or anything like that.

The therapists have been trying to get her stabilized and sober and after a few frustrating months she realized that if she told them what they wanted to hear they would start to help her with her mental issues. So that is how she is dealing with that.

Since she was raised by pot smokers she sees no problem with it. When I try to bring him up she says she will hide it better from him. She refuses to see that it could affect her ability to function (or not function) as a parent, even when she doesn't remember things he told her a few hours earlier.

I guess I need to put it all back on her and make my boundaries clear and from there it's up to her. I will do that tonight and update you all as to the results tomorrow. Thanks for all the help!

Jazzman

Wow, you thinking about having children with her?
Don't expect to make a change tonight and see results tomorrow.. but I guess you know that. Take a few days to decide just what your boundaries SHOULD be for your own emotional health.

ASpouse

You know all of my adult life I've heard how pot and smoking pot affects people. I always poo pooed it, hell I smoked more pot than I care to admit in my day .... but reading your story es808, I can understand more clearly how pot smoking can affect the children, without them ever even having to have smoked it. I'm sad for her that she had to grow up that way and I'm sad for her son, that he is growing up the same way!

I'm not so sure I'm buying her story about when she was 5 .... I think she embellishes the truth and makes stories up and I think she is even doing it to you too. JMHO.

es808

I don't know why she'd make up a story like that. She's not using it as an excuse or anything... But it is possible that it is made up, while I personally don't think it is.

As for what happened last night, I decided to give myself a day or two to figure out exactly what my boundaries will be so I can set them down for her and not have any ambiguity about them.

As for having children with her, when I said that she sees no problem being raised by pot smokers that is not entirely true. She does realize that it messed her up, she is just not willing to put it into words because it would make her have to admit that she has a problem and needs to stop. Her whole family has a carefully crafted mutual denial. If one of them breaks it the whole house of cards come tumbling down and they all have to face the fact that they are addicts.

They only consider "hard" drug problems to be drug problems. Many of them have or have had problems with hard drugs. Painkillers, pills, alcohol, pot are apparently either not considered to be drugs or not considered to be problematic. A bunch of them are regular pot smokers but are in NA for other drugs (meth, mostly). They don't see a contradiction or problem with that.

So they will put someone in rehab for a meth problem but the same person, after getting out of rehab, can drive drunk, smash up their car, end up in jail and no one even bats an eye. It's all a very bizarre situation.

I have to say, I got much more actual helpful advice in the past day than I have gotten in the past six months trying to talk to various social workers and counsellors.

robina

That's the beauty of this place.

denny57

good luck, es808

that's why i use all the resources i can - professionals as well as SR and Al-Anon. Nothing like talking to people who have walked in your shoes.

(())

GettingFree

I found the difficult part in setting boundaries was sticking to them. I had to learn slowly what they were, and then I had to learn how to remain true to them and to myself. It was scary, because following through often meant taking a risk. Now it's become easier and I feel more comfortable in so many areas of my life having become more practiced -- the carry over into work, friendships, my children, extended family, etc is pretty remarkable.

Good luck and keep us posted.

miss communicat

Hi Es,

Sorry to jump in so late in your thread but I keep getting the impression that your girlfriend is not the only one in deep denial.

Every single time you mention a behaviour that you are uncomfortable with, or move in the direction of setting a clear ,non negotiable boundary (a boundary,by the way is something that allows YOU to live without creating resentments for the other person. A boundary is not something you are ever going to get permission for from the other party.) every time you move in the direction of drawing a line and setting limits that honor YOU, you immediately minimize the problem behaviour and call it names such as "not black or white", or this is acceptable under x, y, z conditions, but not under a,b, c...

She has sucked you into her confused reality. But you have made incremental choices every single step of the way. Your discomfort is a healthy response to an unhealthy situation for you.

I was once in a dreadful insane relationship with a man with every single diagnosis you are describing has been made of your gf. It sapped me of all joy, all creativity, all clarity. It derailed me from living the life I was meant to love. In that regard, sick relationships are JUST as toxic and deadly as drugs and alcohol.

Which brings me back to my original observation. If someone told you YOU were in denial, like has been said of your gf, and, to which she rationalizes, and argues, and negotiates, and manipulates, and dances with you around.....would you be ready or willing to listen?

If so, then the best thing you can do is to think of your needs. Not hers.

StandingStrong

I think that boundaries are a really tough thing to explain to someone, especially when they are in denial. I have found that GettingFree described it best for me when put this way: And while I can't recall who posted the site, I found this to be helpful also in describing the boundary process as well: http://onespiritproject.com/Articles/boundary_05.html

Your original question always catches my eye when I come onto this forum. I have not been sure about responding as it seems that you are getting quite a bit of great advice and explanations. However, my first thought when I read your question about helping someone in denial is that you can't. You can explain it to someone a million times over - but until they, themselves, see the problem as a problem and want and work to make it change - then, and only then, will they begin to find recovery and then heal. What can you do? As harsh as it sounds, there isn't much you can do. You can lead a horse to water - but you can't make it drink. So while you may tell them of the help available, they will only take to it when they want too. And constant nagging to them will only breed resentments on their part towards you and anyone else that is trying to help.
It seems from my understanding of your posts that you are having a hard time in defining exactly what it is that you have a problem with. And therefore, setting boundaries.
I think that many people come here in search of finding answers as to how to change the addict. Then they discover that they can't do that - they can only change themselves. And that sounds confusing and hard to understand. And this is where the education part comes into play. Seeking your own recovery through books, the links and posts throughout this board, support groups, therapy - whatever it takes - educate yourself and slowly you will come to understand that we can't control another person. We can only live healthy lives for ourselves.

prodigal

I frankly don't care whether the original poster responds to me or not. But he is as slippery a character as she is. Every time he is pinned down by someone posting here, he makes excuses, legitimizes, explains, waivers, waffles from one thing to another. This is NOT someone who is sick and tired of being sick and tired. It just sounds to me like someone who is willing to put up with an addict's problems. I still have no idea what this man wants for himself, expects from himself, truly needs for himself, or what he foresees for himself. Sorry if I'm wrong, but it all seems to be about her.

P.S. - I am guilty of all get-out for tossing my recovery to the wind when I got ticked off earlier this week at my AH. As Denny pointed out, I began discussing me then turned my focus to my AH, without honestly realizing I was doing so. But I was. The wake-up call got me back on track. IT IS NOT ABOUT THE ADDICT IN YOUR LIFE - IT IS ABOUT YOU AND YOU ALONE. PERIOD. End of sentence, end of paragraph.

miss communicat

[QUOTE=es808] Her whole family has a carefully crafted mutual denial.

They only consider "hard" drug problems to be drug problems. Many of them have or have had problems with hard drugs. Painkillers, pills, alcohol, pot are apparently either not considered to be drugs or not considered to be problematic. A bunch of them are regular pot smokers but are in NA for other drugs (meth, mostly). They don't see a contradiction or problem with that. QUOTE]

Do you realize HOW MUCH like yourself this sounds? (You know the old saying, "If yuo spot it, you got it")

You had problems with drugs, but you apparently don't consider alcohol (wine, to be exact)to be a drug or problematic, for you.

From the amount of time and energy your brain spends wondering about, and inventory-taking your girlfriend and her family, you may want to look into the mirrror with the same scrutiny.

To assess a person and decide that he or she is or is not alcoholic, it matters very little how MUCH that person drinks, or whether he can control it. In fact, controlling is another aspect of the disease, because a non-problem drinker will never give it a second thought. For an alcoholic, its the "phenomenom of craving" and the creative excuses we can come up with to allow ourselves immunity from the disease, so that we can continue on as always...(drinking) not the frequency or quantity .

For the co-dependent, its the "phenomenom" of obsessing of creative, good-looking ways to fix/rescue/monitor/control another person's chaotic behaviour, as opposed to healthy detached compassion, not how BAD or how many diagnoses have been affixed to their significant other.

robina

Nicely stated!