minou

Maybe I've been so dumb to think recovery would really change things. Once a snake always a snake??
I need codie advice. my H , who has been in recovery 10 months (and doing well so far) jumped all over me today with his "old" meanness and cruelty. Out of nowhere. We had just hopped into the car he has taken over (it was mine) that is now a dump/wreak. He is driving this dump cuz he is waiting until he gets his new raise in a couple of months (due to his new sobriety sort of). So, a while back he said he was going to get the A/C fixed. Great. So, it is a thousand degrees today. i get in his car and say: hey, its so hot in here, isn't the air fixed?? Well, that sent him into a rage!! He was like a coiled snake just lashing out.
He, normally quiet, yelled at me (w/ young child in back seat!) DO YOU WANT TO WALK HOME?, DO YOU??? WANT TO WALK???
I was totally silent. The kid was silent. VERY yucky. (no, he had not fixed the air, he didn't want to spend the $600)


I approached him about an hour (of silence) later. I was completely calm. I basically said his response to my Q about the air was over the top and inappropriate. He immediately attacked again and launched into a tirade. He was so angry and mean. I calmly told him he needed to apologize. Well, to make a long, boring story short, of course his answer was a resounding NO. No apology. In his eyes, I was totally wrong to even ask about the 115 degree car situation. Then, he went on and on, attacking my family i.e. it's you "joneses" you're all like that: whine whine nag nag etc etc. He was SO angry; practically frothing!!. That is what is freaking me out. The old guy is back. i am so totally sad/bummed/offended that he would not at least apologize for going over the top like that (and in front of the kid etc.) My old codie self would just simmer and let this blow over. Since going to alanon and reading etc. I feel like PRESSING THE POINT!!!
F@%&*ing apologize!!!
Now, I know. Some would say, OMG, this is so minor and lame. but it is not. No, he is not drinking again, BUT he is acting like his old mean, cold self. That is scary. Of course, right now he is asleep. No big deal to him. That just frosts me. I want to do the right thing. Should I let it blow over. or hold his feet to the fire. What is this all about? Tonight I felt like bailing. The cold, mean guy is back.
thanks for your advice.

LaTeeDa

My husband has been sober for 8 months. One thing I have learned is that it is not the drinking that was the issue. It is the behavior. Do you want to live with this behavior? If he cannot communicate with you in a sane, honest, rational manner, how is it any different from living with a drunk? Perhaps you can communicate this to him and he can understand, perhaps not.

Just my perspective,

L

Live

This is emotional abuse. And abuse is abuse. I used to think my ex's abuse was due to alcoholism, then I learned they are two separate problems.
There is a stickie in Women in Recovery if you are interested...it's sort of long and there may be several....take what you need leave the rest.
But you and your child have just been abused and it is emotionally and psychologically damaging. Can have long term effects.

I am awfully stubborn, I probably would now get out of the car, if it's not too far walk and if it is call a cab. And maybe check into a hotel room for the night for the peace and quiet.

The general advice is to walk away, remove yourself from the situation.

hugs,
live

megamysterioso

If this continues, is this acceptable to you?? From your post, I would think not. Can you live with a person of this character for the rest of your life? Set your boundaries and don't settle for less than you deserve IMO.

The core of a person does not change simply by removing the addiction. The old saying, "if someone's an Ahole when drunk, they're an Ahole when sober" applies. Obviously your husband has some serious anger issues that should be addressed. As with addiction though, if he's not willing to address them then nothing you say or do will stop this behavior from happening time and time again.

Hugs to you and I'm sorry you're living with this. I've been through it too. Filed the divorce papers on Thursday.

gypsyrose

I talk about the switch in their brain that gets flipped... well alcohol isn't the only thing that can trigger it, just the most predictable one. I wonder if they were always that way or if the neural pathways in their brains were altered by the years of alcohol abuse? My AH is usually great to be around when he isn't drunk or coming down from drinking but... if he's tired or stressed or hungry, the switch can flip without alcohol. In the case of my AH, it can be viscious cycle since he's not sober (yet).

One thing I do know is that drunk or sober, once the switch is flipped, there's no point in talking to him. If something needs to be discusssed, I wait until he has the ability to be rational again. It really appears to me to be neurologically based. It certainly isn't based in reality. I equate it with Tourette's syndrome or just plain sneezing... they can control the behavior most of the time if they want to but not all the time and sometimes they could but it just feels better to let the sneeze fly.

Anyone have any research based information on this issue? I can't find anything in the DSM that fits unless it's a multiple personality disorder and one of the personalities has oppositional defiance disorder and another one has a sociopathic personality disorder. I have no idea how my AH would behave if he was sober long term. Does anyone know if there is research on this sort of behavior over time? Is ther anything that indicates that the switch gets flipped less the longer they're sober? My AH's behavior has improved drastically since he reduced his drinking enough to at least be able to be aware of his behavior most of the time.

Has your AH's behavior been improving over time?

Hopefully the outbursts of insanity will become fewer over time. I sure would like to get more perspective on this. Can anyone with any knowledge or personal experience have any words of wisdom to share?

minou

Yeah, his behavior has been much better. Of course, not perfect. he has been easier to talk to and has been really trying with all the family things one does (games, being tuned in etc). That is why in a very calm way, I asked for an apology. i really thought he'd see that and apologize. And maybe still say what he thought too, but AT LEAST say yeah, I shouldn't have yelled what I did. He gives me such mixed messages. Says he totally loves me (said while in treatment), but then does stuff like that, or just appears very annoyed at me much of the time. A part of me agrees with the idea of just getting out of the car and walking away. Our kid was in the back seat tho. In some ways, I can see how it is good for a kid to see their mom not put up with that type of "abuse". Our child lurked in the other room later and tried to listen to our discussion of the event. But H was just going totally off again, so I asked our child to go wait for me in my car. Maybe bad (??). Am I covering up again?? Trying to make everything seem lovely when it is not? Crap. I feel bad. Why don't I know the right thing to do? I am NOT young. I should know.

megamysterioso

I don't think it's a bad thing to want to protect your child from the unnecessary rage coming from Dad. You do seem to be rationalizing his behavior by justifying it in your mind as "not that bad." If it's something you can live with and he doesn't react to your effort to engage him in an apology, you must let it go. You cannot expect him to react the way you would like him to every time. You're 2 different people. I think he's out of line though and would not want to live with it- especially with a child.

Zoey

10 months is not very long, many are still hanging on by a thread and their insides are screaming.
Does he go to meetings, have a sponsor and has he talked about doing the steps, like a 4th and 5th step. The 4th and 5th steps are very important.

Not that you should put up with yelling, but crossed my mind that many relapse or slip at one year. Once they are sober for a while and going to meetings it should give them more reason to return to sobriety if they slip.

Does he eat well?? I had a recovering A friend that put off eating to finish things, he would start bitting everyones head off. Low blood sugar, we would try to get him to eat. They should have a protein snack every 2 hours. almonds, or cheese and cold meat with crackers.

I am sorry this is happening. Just my 2 cents

GettingFree

My view is this: that these reactions are very much based in reality, but in a reality learned long ago.

Again this is just my own view based on a lot of reading and learning, but in most cases I don't believe there is anything neurological underlying irrational communication, fits of temper, defensive outbursts, or abusive tactics.

Rather the behavior comes from triggering a very young emotional/psychological state. From the outside (and actually, in the inside too), it does appear as if a switch has been flipped -- because the emotions in that child ego state are so powerful. Emotions of helplessness, fear, rage and shame are the biggies. Once they come into play, so do old behavior patterns to defend against these powerful emotions.

There is one neruological way of looking at it, so to speak. Simply put, the brain is divided into 3 major areas: the lower brain, which is the most primitive and is responsible for safety and survival instincts; the middle brain, which controls emotions, hormones and long-term memory; and the higher brain which controls our ability to reason, set goals, develop language and conceive abstract ideas.

You could say that when we are triggered emotionally, the middle brain takes over, calling into play very long-term emotional memory as well, and can intersect with the lower brain controlling flight-or-fight responses. Certainly, the cortical brain, the higher brain, often takes a hike and reason goes out the window. But there is no neurological damage or disorder -- it's simply the same mechanism all us mere mortals have to deal with and evolve with.

So the question is how do you respond more from an adult ego state grounded in the present, or another way of saying, from the higher brain?

The only way I have learned is therapy. The first step is identifying and acknowledging the well of emotional pain: helplessness, fear, rage and shame. Once you identify it, you can work on healing and clearing it. The more you clear it out, and attach the right source to it, the less those 'old' emotions and old behavior patterns are 'flipped', and the more you're able to be in the present.

It's hard work. But very important work. And it's why to me, sobriety is only the first step in recovery.

Sorry if I derailed at all -- just responding to the question and giving my perspective, for what it's worth.

best

gf

reader

Minou, I tend to be a hardass! I will demand an apology when my H says something out of line. I feel strongly about being respected and especially when my children are present like yours were. I never want my daughter to think it is ok to have a man even raise his voice to her.. I aggree with u that a codie thing it would be to allow someone to walk on u and not want an apology. Take care and stick to ur guns!!! kerry

minou

some very good, helpful advice. thank you. I woke up this morning feeling so bummed. he is behaving the same as the "old" days (when he was drinking and being an a-hole).
I come in the kitchen this morn, he is cheery, fine. "coffees on!!" etc. (I usually make the coffee BTW).
I am thinking "F#@$ You". He is breezily blowing it all over.
The same pattern. But I can change, I guess. Wimpy question: How do I hold him to apologize?? I need a consequence!!! It seems a bit heavy handed to say "you apologize or i'm outa here". Especially after reading above about the recovery process and their old behaviors etc.
I WANT TO CHANGE. I do nto want to be a codie. I do not want to be sick. i do not want to go back to the old pattern. But I also want to do the right, level-headed thing too.

GettingFree

I disagree with reader -- I don't think anyone can demand an apology from anyone else. Just as we can't 'demand' anyone behave in any way at all. We have no control over their behavior. And if we demand? And they do not comply? We have a power struggle. Usually ugly, hurtful, and unsatisfying.

Besides, for me, the only apology that matters is one that is initiated by the person giving it.

If someone hurts me, or has treated me with disrespect, all I can do is communicate my feelings to that person. "Ouch, that hurt." or "Ouch, that was a really disprectful thing to say...or do." Or something along that line.

The rest of the work is up to me. I can decide if I like the way that person treats me, ,or not. I can decide what options I have if that person continues to treat me in hurtful, abusive or disprectful ways. I can swallow it and deal with the consequences. I can detach and create a relationship in which I manage a co-existence in spite of treatment I do not like. I can leave. I can ask them to leave. I can get help and support from others who understand when I am upset. I can get therapy. I can ask him to get therapy. I can ask for both of us to get couple counselling to improve our communication.

If you want an apology, if he has hurt you without acknowledging it or owing it, and he doesn't apologize or own it, that's information. It will continue to flesh out your knowledge of what you are dealing with. What you want. What you will accept. What you won't.

It's hard, I know.

best
gf

gypsyrose

I actually did once get out of the car, pull my baby out of the car seat and stay in a nice hotel one night. He was drunk and insisting on driving. I was pregnant, it was late and I needed room service.

You don't have to insist on an apology to make it clear to him that you believe his behavior was/is unacceptable. You could let him know that what he did is totally not okay with you and that since he isn't treating you well you'll treat yourself well. Do something nice for yourself. Don't give him any more attention 'till he gives you a good reason to. Just some ideas that have worked for me at times. Hope they help. Hope that by the time you see this he has already come to his senses and made up for his bad behavior.

GettingFree

Hi reader,

I may define respect differently than you.

Compliance with a command is obedience in my eyes, not respect. Respect is a genuine value and regard for other people. It can't be commanded.

best
gf

Live

I agree with gf....what good is a forced apology? It wouldn't be sincere.

reader

By demand an apology I did not mean that I am happy after just hearing" I am sorry". I explain that abc- hurt my feelings or it is not acceptable to speak to me like that. I respect my husband and when I am wrong will also apologize, it is a 2 way street. I do believe we teach people how to treat us. it can be easier to say whatever and walk away but I require respect and I also give it. My self worth is very important to me and we all deserve to be treated kindly. Daily stresses cause many of us to lose our cools but we need to be reminded when we our wrong. As I have gotten older things have become very black or white for me. As I tell my kids there is a right way and a wrong way, now u choose! Just some thoughts!

minou

Yes!! For everyone who responded. These fine, fine lines are SO important to define. I need to continue to take an assertive stance to "teach" him what I expect. But, to demand an apology is out of line. It DOES set up a power struggle. I'm so grateful that was pointed out. it did feel "off" to demand he apologize. But when I doubted myself, I thought that was my codie saying "oh, now, now, you don't want to go there.... just relax and let your fantasy world take over. Everything is Ok...." etc.
thank you. I cannot say that enough. the work is not over. I cannot let this slide into NOTHING like he is hoping. He has been sooooooo nice the last couple of days. Mr. chatty. To me this is very much like the abusive cycles I've read about when the abuser is really going at it, (meaning situations where it is very serious/dangerous) then they get all nicey nicey. My H has never fallen into that category
(i.e. dangerous). But mild abuse is abuse also. So easy to dismiss, blow off, because of the other horrible stories out there.

reader

Exactly, Minou, Sometimes I think the same thing! Wow, compared to some men or the comments he is better than most but I don't cut him a break. When I was in a live in situation when I was young I put up with way too much, he was a hot headed. His mother would even try to brainwash me and say that he has always been like that when he was hungry and that he has low blood sugar. Nope, I smarting up with him and threw him out and I won't except my H even looking at me crossed eyed. Sometimes, my H will say it all about u and my response is "yes, my life is all about me". When I read the Joy Luck Club years ago there was a line that said "You don't know ur worth". I think we all need to know our worth and what we will and will not accept. I hope your H's bad mood has run its course. With menopause I often feel like I am riding my broom, the other day my kiddos said I needed to go out!! One even offered to pay for the sitter. Thats when u know they are ready for a reprieve. LOl Kerry

Grasshopper

Hi Minou,congrats to your hub on his soberiety!!!!!
I am not a bad person.A sick person learning a new way to think.Learning a new way to live.I didnt do better until i learned better.It takes ---time---- to heal.It takes ----time---- to learn and grow.I am alcoholic,and i also go to Al-anon.Not only did i have a drinking problem,i also had a living problem.Putting down the booze,was only the first thing.Now i was left with all my own issues.
Abuse is in the eye/ears of the beholder.I can hear things from others as abuse,or i can hear things,and know that this is comming from a sick person.I make choices to respond,or not to.----Self--respect comes from the self.No other person can give this to me.If another talks to me,like im a rats a$$,{this is,in my judgements} thats on them,not me.Has nothing to do with me,i dont own it.I do own what i think about myself.,under all condtions.However if i do hand over my self-worth to others,making their thoughts/feeling more important than my own,of who i am,its then that it become important for another to applogise,and do it quick,because my ego,is demanding,to be respected,and now.I respect myself,.its not on any conditions of what others say or do.Self love,self respect is not something that others can take away from me.Unless i let them.Its in my choices what i think and feel.
Thanks for letting me share,my es*h,and how it works for me today.
Prayers for you and hub.

elizabeth1979

My thoughts...

If I ever have to require, force, demand, or push someone to apologize....I have to ask myself what I think that apology will do for me. People generally dont apologize when they are not sorry or do not think they have done anything wrong.

He may very well be hanging on by a thread, but by no means does that mean you have to be around him while hes hanging, if his behavior is still offensive to you.

Just something to think about