Is Codependancy A Disease
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Is Codependancy A Disease
I have heard, to my horror, people refering to codependancy as a disease? On what evidence is this based upon?
From my own personal experience I found it very liberating to finally be free from my diagnosis of "diseased alcoholic" - and I found truth in the the pschological explanation for alcoholisim.
Okay, an instant understading of ones behaviour in a diagnosis is great (the diagnosis of OCD was very liberating for me) - as it identifies something that I might have thought was unique to me and crazy...
...but surely the downside is believing that something is intrinsically wrong with you (when a pschological explanation is just that, an explanation), that you must carry this 'wrong' around with you for the rest of your life, and 'treat it' for the rest of your life (including a belief system revamp)..surely that is a violation of human rights? Unless, of course, it is based on strong, hard scientific evidence? Who the hell are telling people that they are diseased for being in "codependant" relationships????
From my own personal experience I found it very liberating to finally be free from my diagnosis of "diseased alcoholic" - and I found truth in the the pschological explanation for alcoholisim.
Okay, an instant understading of ones behaviour in a diagnosis is great (the diagnosis of OCD was very liberating for me) - as it identifies something that I might have thought was unique to me and crazy...
...but surely the downside is believing that something is intrinsically wrong with you (when a pschological explanation is just that, an explanation), that you must carry this 'wrong' around with you for the rest of your life, and 'treat it' for the rest of your life (including a belief system revamp)..surely that is a violation of human rights? Unless, of course, it is based on strong, hard scientific evidence? Who the hell are telling people that they are diseased for being in "codependant" relationships????
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Okay, say someone has unhealthy relationships time and time over, surely all that is needed is an assesment of attitude, a change in attitude, and a commitment to the new attitude?
Not life long moral inventories, handing your will and your life over to a higher power, because without it your disease would kill you - surely that is a violation of human rights?
Not life long moral inventories, handing your will and your life over to a higher power, because without it your disease would kill you - surely that is a violation of human rights?
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What's wrong with having a disease? Tons of people have them. And more tons do what they have to every day to control those diseases. It's not a defect.
No, I do not believe co-dependency is a disease. I also think it's a waaaaaaaay overused term. JMO.
No, I do not believe co-dependency is a disease. I also think it's a waaaaaaaay overused term. JMO.
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Originally Posted by Five
and then by the time you've done the steps you some kind of prideful egotist who is a selfish sinner.
Seriously, Five, I see what you're saying. 12 steps aren't for everyone. What matters is you've found something that works for you.
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If anyone said to me today 'you have a disease' I would ask them for as much evidence as possible to support the claim as possible. I would look at the evidence and then decide. Self selective groups need not apply.
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You OK, Five? (Great avatar, btw. No 1 album on my all-time list).
Nope, I don't see codependency as a disease, but then I'm not likely to given my beliefs about other so-called diseases.
I developed a pattern of behaviour based on coping strategies learned over the years. Those stategies served me well at one time, but I didn't adapt them when my circumstances changed. It just so happened that there are others who developed the same strategies and found themselves in the same new environments and I can relate to them. I have found it useful to use the terms codependency and "codie" as shorthand and it seems to serve me well enough for that purpose. To take it any further than that is of no interest to me. Besides, I have learned, and continue to learn, new ways of living my life.
Nope, I don't see codependency as a disease, but then I'm not likely to given my beliefs about other so-called diseases.
I developed a pattern of behaviour based on coping strategies learned over the years. Those stategies served me well at one time, but I didn't adapt them when my circumstances changed. It just so happened that there are others who developed the same strategies and found themselves in the same new environments and I can relate to them. I have found it useful to use the terms codependency and "codie" as shorthand and it seems to serve me well enough for that purpose. To take it any further than that is of no interest to me. Besides, I have learned, and continue to learn, new ways of living my life.
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It starts off my being a disease. And then they tell you how 'sick you are' for being in sick relationships. If your with him something is deeply, darkly wrong with you.
No!¬ How about a few irrational beliefs, unhealthy habits of thinking, and a life style adjustment and then...wow: MOVE ON! I am sorry folks, but Bill Wilsons (who this all comes from) word is not the be all and end all. Science in this area, for example, is in my belief a touch more ethical.
No!¬ How about a few irrational beliefs, unhealthy habits of thinking, and a life style adjustment and then...wow: MOVE ON! I am sorry folks, but Bill Wilsons (who this all comes from) word is not the be all and end all. Science in this area, for example, is in my belief a touch more ethical.
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No Big Sis, I am talking here about rampant mind control, not my feelings.
I grew up VERY different from others... then I joined Alanon and discovered I am very much LIKE those I've met in that group. We in Alanon share MANY traits... perfectionism, workaholism, control issues. Many of us have approached alcoholism and addiction in the SAME WAY. Why?
Where did these similar traits come from? Why did SO many of us bring the exact same "tools" out of childhoods? If Alcoholism is a disease (and I believe it is), it is much "bigger", much "more" than "just drinking". Otherwise, the whole program of AA would consist of "put down the damned drink, stupid".
I quit drinking without a program, Five, but I did not find comfort and peace about living until I started working a 12-step program.... TWENTY YEARS later.
I could have gotten some of this same comfort and peace from some churches, or from some counselors... but the package of ideas at 12-step was effective and efficient and much better targeted to my needs.
What I see in Alanon is just another manifestation of the condition of alcholism... the personality traits, the survival skills. We are products of living in alcoholism... and maybe there are genetics behind it. I don't think there is proof of that... but hell, it does not "horrify" me to call it a disease.
It is not "mind control". "Mind Control" implies by "someone" for an unsavory purpose. Who? Bill and Bob and Lois? They've been dead for decades. For what purpose? So I can live better? 12-step clubs do not ask ME for money or power.... in fact, on THIS side of the pond, one can attend through FREE WILL.
And stop anytime.
Where the flippin' mind control in that?
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Five - until I came into SR I never concieved of refering to a person as diseased!! It's you as much as anyone that keeps that alive.
Disease defines a problem - a medical one, not PEOPLE. I've spent years around medical staff as I know you have and they may well refer to an organ as diseased or a body part but I think if anyone said 'HE is diseased' there'd be one hell of a look of shock!!
Do I have a disease? Most likely YES - all the complex, nozzles, valves, and phlanges in my whole bod I'm sure aren't ALL perfect. Do I have a diagnosable disease? Possibly but not diagnosed. Am I diseased - hell no!! I'm Ruth, pleased to meet you!
Disease defines a problem - a medical one, not PEOPLE. I've spent years around medical staff as I know you have and they may well refer to an organ as diseased or a body part but I think if anyone said 'HE is diseased' there'd be one hell of a look of shock!!
Do I have a disease? Most likely YES - all the complex, nozzles, valves, and phlanges in my whole bod I'm sure aren't ALL perfect. Do I have a diagnosable disease? Possibly but not diagnosed. Am I diseased - hell no!! I'm Ruth, pleased to meet you!
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"Disease defines a problem - a medical one, not PEOPLE. I've spent years around medical staff as I know you have and they may well refer to an organ as diseased or a body part but I think if anyone said 'HE is diseased' there'd be one hell of a look of shock!!"
I agree - but here we are talking (what was it Wilson wrote) "mental, spiritual, physical".
The whole self in other words.
I agree - but here we are talking (what was it Wilson wrote) "mental, spiritual, physical".
The whole self in other words.
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Originally Posted by Five
... but Bill Wilsons (who this all comes from) word is not the be all and end all. Science in this area, for example, is in my belief a touch more ethical.
... breathe.
You know what? I am getting all twingled up and "hearing" you with a tone in your posts... one that I don't think is really there. I think it is in ME and I am responding defensively because of that.
Please accept my apology for not being able to "talk" (grin) using a reasonable tone of voice. I've got a workshop this weekend that I am hoping will help me with why I respond to others quite the way I do.
Have a good one yourself, Five.
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[QUOTE=BigSis]It's semantics. It helps clarify. And "horror" is what you expressed in the first line of your first post. THAT is a feeling.
I grew up VERY different from others... then I joined Alanon and discovered I am very much LIKE those I've met in that group. We in Alanon share MANY traits... perfectionism, workaholism, control issues. Many of us have approached alcoholism and addiction in the SAME WAY. Why?
Where did these similar traits come from? Why did SO many of us bring the exact same "tools" out of childhoods? If Alcoholism is a disease (and I believe it is), it is much "bigger", much "more" than "just drinking". Otherwise, the whole program of AA would consist of "put down the damned drink, stupid".
I quit drinking without a program, Five, but I did not find comfort and peace about living until I started working a 12-step program.... TWENTY YEARS later.
I could have gotten some of this same comfort and peace from some churches, or from some counselors... but the package of ideas at 12-step was effective and efficient and much better targeted to my needs.
What I see in Alanon is just another manifestation of the condition of alcholism... the personality traits, the survival skills. We are products of living in alcoholism... and maybe there are genetics behind it. I don't think there is proof of that... but hell, it does not "horrify" me to call it a disease.
It is not "mind control". "Mind Control" implies by "someone" for an unsavory purpose. Who? Bill and Bob and Lois? They've been dead for decades. For what purpose? So I can live better? 12-step clubs do not ask ME for money or power.... in fact, on THIS side of the pond, one can attend through FREE WILL.
And stop anytime.
Ideologies control people. People get lost in them. Like trapped animals, totaly and unutterly uanble to think for themselves without fitting it into the ideology. That is control. Mind control. And it makes me sick.
I grew up VERY different from others... then I joined Alanon and discovered I am very much LIKE those I've met in that group. We in Alanon share MANY traits... perfectionism, workaholism, control issues. Many of us have approached alcoholism and addiction in the SAME WAY. Why?
Where did these similar traits come from? Why did SO many of us bring the exact same "tools" out of childhoods? If Alcoholism is a disease (and I believe it is), it is much "bigger", much "more" than "just drinking". Otherwise, the whole program of AA would consist of "put down the damned drink, stupid".
I quit drinking without a program, Five, but I did not find comfort and peace about living until I started working a 12-step program.... TWENTY YEARS later.
I could have gotten some of this same comfort and peace from some churches, or from some counselors... but the package of ideas at 12-step was effective and efficient and much better targeted to my needs.
What I see in Alanon is just another manifestation of the condition of alcholism... the personality traits, the survival skills. We are products of living in alcoholism... and maybe there are genetics behind it. I don't think there is proof of that... but hell, it does not "horrify" me to call it a disease.
It is not "mind control". "Mind Control" implies by "someone" for an unsavory purpose. Who? Bill and Bob and Lois? They've been dead for decades. For what purpose? So I can live better? 12-step clubs do not ask ME for money or power.... in fact, on THIS side of the pond, one can attend through FREE WILL.
And stop anytime.
Ideologies control people. People get lost in them. Like trapped animals, totaly and unutterly uanble to think for themselves without fitting it into the ideology. That is control. Mind control. And it makes me sick.
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Yeah - well I discuss disease by the definition of the English language. I won't get into a (what I think) is a ridiculous debate where meanings can be what anyone picks them to be.
Seriously, you mentioned Stanton Peele the other day and that's what puts me off him, he's arguing with a nonsense and in those terms it's easy to look sensible.
When's the last time you hunted down a journal article? There's a whole load of research and discussion that doesn't get into all this. It's sensible and down to earth rather than (what this reminds me of) arguing about creation versus evolution!
The disease concept in clinical terms has bog all to do with souls, soothsaying or defining people.
Seriously, you mentioned Stanton Peele the other day and that's what puts me off him, he's arguing with a nonsense and in those terms it's easy to look sensible.
When's the last time you hunted down a journal article? There's a whole load of research and discussion that doesn't get into all this. It's sensible and down to earth rather than (what this reminds me of) arguing about creation versus evolution!
The disease concept in clinical terms has bog all to do with souls, soothsaying or defining people.
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Read Cult or Cure by Charless Burfe - its available online.
Read More will Be Revealled by Ken Regge - avialable online
Read Twelve Step Horror Stories - also available
Read The Orange Papers - website
Read More will Be Revealled by Ken Regge - avialable online
Read Twelve Step Horror Stories - also available
Read The Orange Papers - website
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