Is Codependancy A Disease
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London
Posts: 1,229
Hell, its great when we critisice each other - but its not okay to attack the great beast of the recovery movement most of us are under (with nice death threats keeping people in place).
Eq - your an open minded person, spend 6 months in AA and you'll know what I mean.
Eq - your an open minded person, spend 6 months in AA and you'll know what I mean.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 3,054
It depends where and when....
To be honest I think criticism often just gets in the way - especially when it's combative. What's the net effect you observe? Mostly it's to create greater division and side taking. Not only that but people have every right to choose what they feel is best for them - they don't need me to rescue them from it.
You talked about the time you spent in AA - what really would have helped most, to have AA deconstructed OR to be given a viable alternative? And what about those who at the same time were finding the same group helpful - which option would help them most?
My issue is with those wasting time that should know better, if Stanton Peele got off his soap box and back to producing something rather than trying to remove something he might be a lot more interesting if not more use.
On the issue of Al-Anon, I simply do NOT feel they are to blame for the lack of alternative for loved ones. They should NOT (edit to add NOT) have to provide alternatives and have every right to meet. However I do believe mounting research should lead to action but where that costs money and there's something free 'out there' those with the money aren't playing - that is NOT Al-Anon's fault.
I'm more interested in building then let people decide for themselves, I'm more interested in offering than trying to pull apart.
To be honest I think criticism often just gets in the way - especially when it's combative. What's the net effect you observe? Mostly it's to create greater division and side taking. Not only that but people have every right to choose what they feel is best for them - they don't need me to rescue them from it.
You talked about the time you spent in AA - what really would have helped most, to have AA deconstructed OR to be given a viable alternative? And what about those who at the same time were finding the same group helpful - which option would help them most?
My issue is with those wasting time that should know better, if Stanton Peele got off his soap box and back to producing something rather than trying to remove something he might be a lot more interesting if not more use.
On the issue of Al-Anon, I simply do NOT feel they are to blame for the lack of alternative for loved ones. They should NOT (edit to add NOT) have to provide alternatives and have every right to meet. However I do believe mounting research should lead to action but where that costs money and there's something free 'out there' those with the money aren't playing - that is NOT Al-Anon's fault.
I'm more interested in building then let people decide for themselves, I'm more interested in offering than trying to pull apart.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 3,054
Eq - your an open minded person, spend 6 months in AA and you'll know what I mean.
If I spent 6 months in a convent I'd probably go bonkers but that doesn't mean I'd spend years trying to have them removed!
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London
Posts: 1,229
Your right Eq. I am still deprogramming from AA. I would call it spiritual rape - mental and emotional manipulation, almost to the point of suicide.
The great big fat justification: o, but its better than drinking.
Mental and emotional rape? Week in week out? Told or impllied that your a useless peace of crap who is a selfish pride full egotist night after night? Being told that reason is the last gasp of the ego? THat you should destroy your ego?
And then finding out that Bill Wilson loved Frank Buchman and feelign such a deep sense of disgusting betrayel and time wasted that you want to punch every wise old old timer in the face.
If thats the sort of thing people want to see grow and not critisize then so bet it.
Go and see the letters page on The Orange Papers.
My only response? Walk away from it - maybe a small part of it will die if I am not around feeding it anymore.
Laters.
The great big fat justification: o, but its better than drinking.
Mental and emotional rape? Week in week out? Told or impllied that your a useless peace of crap who is a selfish pride full egotist night after night? Being told that reason is the last gasp of the ego? THat you should destroy your ego?
And then finding out that Bill Wilson loved Frank Buchman and feelign such a deep sense of disgusting betrayel and time wasted that you want to punch every wise old old timer in the face.
If thats the sort of thing people want to see grow and not critisize then so bet it.
Go and see the letters page on The Orange Papers.
My only response? Walk away from it - maybe a small part of it will die if I am not around feeding it anymore.
Laters.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London
Posts: 1,229
Yeah, but convents are not health organisations that the public put a lot of trust in.
AA does not work higher than the natural remission rate for alcoholisim (Vallient, 1989) - the rest is abuse.
AA does not work higher than the natural remission rate for alcoholisim (Vallient, 1989) - the rest is abuse.
On a tear
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Volcano Country!
Posts: 3,221
Five... I do not think you are evil. I don't even think you are misinformed. I DO think you are angry and must have excellent reasons for feeling that way, and that anger is reflected out in some of your posts. Mine, too.
I did read the Orange Papers. I went there months and months ago when it occured to me to do with 12-step what I do with other consumer goods... look for negative reviews and see read them with the idea in mind that "negative" anything focuses MORE on the negative than anything else.
In my view, anyone who is "anti-AA" is not proposing a solution, but often is driven by something not very pure. Same with anyone who is "anti-soap" because they had an allergic reaction to it. The ANTI drives the message. I found that to be true of the Orange Papers.
I continued with 12-step, even after reading the Orange Papers with a pretty open mind. I have NEVER been ostracized for not following the program to the letter.... or even for deciding I don't want to follow parts of it at all. Never.
I did belong to a "sick group" for a short time. A bunch of sick folks who hadn't figured out the Traditions and put a whole lot of EGO into "their" meetings. It WAS filled with rules and hierarchy and, eventually, pain. It was not healthy for anyone. I took my concerns about this sick meeting to my sponsor.
She advised me to leave and by not supporting it, it would eventually die. I didn't. I stayed and tried to change them - to get them to at least acknowledge the 12 Traditions. It didn't work. So, eventually I left.
And last I heard, the meeting is only sporadic and is dying.
I don't think all AA/Alanon/OA/Whatever groups are "equal" - but the steps and traditions are guidelines to help them present the same information in approximately the same way. Like Girl Scout troops... we all use the same manual.
The difference with 12-step is that we are NOT a bunch of Girl Scouts... we are a bunch of willful, egotistical, SICK people who sometimes choose to NOT use the manual. To not follow the steps and to not follow the traditions.
Do I believe 12-step is THE only way? God, no. How could I when I WAS able to stop drinking without a program? There are as many ways to live a good life as there are people... but I DO think it is a good one that works well for some people. And I DO think it is ok, and probably necessary to continually question and allow that questioning.
(((Five)))) <--- yep, that's a hug... but don't worry, I didn't give away the "secret handshake"... grin.
I did read the Orange Papers. I went there months and months ago when it occured to me to do with 12-step what I do with other consumer goods... look for negative reviews and see read them with the idea in mind that "negative" anything focuses MORE on the negative than anything else.
In my view, anyone who is "anti-AA" is not proposing a solution, but often is driven by something not very pure. Same with anyone who is "anti-soap" because they had an allergic reaction to it. The ANTI drives the message. I found that to be true of the Orange Papers.
I continued with 12-step, even after reading the Orange Papers with a pretty open mind. I have NEVER been ostracized for not following the program to the letter.... or even for deciding I don't want to follow parts of it at all. Never.
I did belong to a "sick group" for a short time. A bunch of sick folks who hadn't figured out the Traditions and put a whole lot of EGO into "their" meetings. It WAS filled with rules and hierarchy and, eventually, pain. It was not healthy for anyone. I took my concerns about this sick meeting to my sponsor.
She advised me to leave and by not supporting it, it would eventually die. I didn't. I stayed and tried to change them - to get them to at least acknowledge the 12 Traditions. It didn't work. So, eventually I left.
And last I heard, the meeting is only sporadic and is dying.
I don't think all AA/Alanon/OA/Whatever groups are "equal" - but the steps and traditions are guidelines to help them present the same information in approximately the same way. Like Girl Scout troops... we all use the same manual.
The difference with 12-step is that we are NOT a bunch of Girl Scouts... we are a bunch of willful, egotistical, SICK people who sometimes choose to NOT use the manual. To not follow the steps and to not follow the traditions.
Do I believe 12-step is THE only way? God, no. How could I when I WAS able to stop drinking without a program? There are as many ways to live a good life as there are people... but I DO think it is a good one that works well for some people. And I DO think it is ok, and probably necessary to continually question and allow that questioning.
(((Five)))) <--- yep, that's a hug... but don't worry, I didn't give away the "secret handshake"... grin.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London
Posts: 1,229
I have learnt, believe it or not, far more than I expected by typing this thread.
The Orange Papers are very angry, and often miss the mark, but I needed them like I need water. At that time.
I guess take Eqs advice and just get on with it.
Peace.
The Orange Papers are very angry, and often miss the mark, but I needed them like I need water. At that time.
I guess take Eqs advice and just get on with it.
Peace.
Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: northern cal
Posts: 2
Codependency starts out as a personality trait. When that trait consumes us and makes us physically and mentally ill then I see it as a disease. A disease is made up of symtoms, I believe when you can't sleep, eat, lose wieght and are on the verge of a nervous break down in dealing with an addicted person in your life, then yes that personality trait has moved to a disease. It all depends how far it goes and if what ever you find that brings you back to a healthy lifestyle should not be judged but applauded.
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Leaving Sparta
Posts: 2,912
Originally Posted by Five
I need to do some work on my continued rage against AA. Otherise I am just going to be typing the same ol' stuff on here.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 3,054
My only response? Walk away from it - maybe a small part of it will die if I am not around feeding it anymore.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 689
Hi Five and everyone here,
I wasn't sure I wanted to jump in on this conversation or not, but here goes. Five, I identify with a lot of what you're feeling -- not the intensity, but with the underlying questions.
In the past, I've had serious misgivings about AA and the 12 steps. I was uncomfortable with the organized religious overtones of the program (not coming from a Christian background), and even more uncomfortable with the judgmental language of the steps. For example, the notion of defects of charcter and moral inventory are pretty toxic ideas to me -- and I see them being generated out of the same toxic family systems that promoted the very problems many of us are struggling with here today.
Heck, I even found it hard to trust someone (Bill Wilson) whose notion of recovery included replacing one addiction for another (nicotine) which can be as deadly, albeit more socially acceptable. It was puzzling because it seemed to me the goal for Wilson was sobriety, rather than healing a whole person so they could respond to life's pains and challenges without relying on addictions. So it seemed the objectives alone were in conflict with my own. And I knew I wanted to heal a whole person, i.e. me.
Certainly, knowledge about addiction and recovery has grown enormously since the founding of AA. So has the knowledge on healing early trauma, abuse and PTSD. AA wasn't formed out of this kind of sensitivity to early childhood wounding, and so in its absense, a disease model was developed. For myself, 12-steps has yet to fully embrace this more recent body of knowledge that is very important personally to my recovery. ACOA has done a better job in this -- but I am still uncomfortable with the steps. But that's just me.
That said, I know of many who have been helped by the 12-step model and adhere to it to maintain their own progress. I know of many who have adapted to things in the program that may have otherwise made them uncomfortable by reinterpreting words or ideas. And I now look at everyone as individuals in their recovery process, no matter what path they choose.
Five -- one of my primary codependent issues has been dealing with authority. It goes back a long way. I understand your anger, and your rage. I have long railed against those in power or who put themselves in positions of authority, but don't seem to 'get it'. Or worse, can cause damage. I think you're coming out of an honorable place. It may be worthwhile looking at the intensity. I know when I'm feeling that kind of intensity -- which I still can -- there's something else behind it.
I just wanted to say I 'get' where you're coming from.
best
gf
I wasn't sure I wanted to jump in on this conversation or not, but here goes. Five, I identify with a lot of what you're feeling -- not the intensity, but with the underlying questions.
In the past, I've had serious misgivings about AA and the 12 steps. I was uncomfortable with the organized religious overtones of the program (not coming from a Christian background), and even more uncomfortable with the judgmental language of the steps. For example, the notion of defects of charcter and moral inventory are pretty toxic ideas to me -- and I see them being generated out of the same toxic family systems that promoted the very problems many of us are struggling with here today.
Heck, I even found it hard to trust someone (Bill Wilson) whose notion of recovery included replacing one addiction for another (nicotine) which can be as deadly, albeit more socially acceptable. It was puzzling because it seemed to me the goal for Wilson was sobriety, rather than healing a whole person so they could respond to life's pains and challenges without relying on addictions. So it seemed the objectives alone were in conflict with my own. And I knew I wanted to heal a whole person, i.e. me.
Certainly, knowledge about addiction and recovery has grown enormously since the founding of AA. So has the knowledge on healing early trauma, abuse and PTSD. AA wasn't formed out of this kind of sensitivity to early childhood wounding, and so in its absense, a disease model was developed. For myself, 12-steps has yet to fully embrace this more recent body of knowledge that is very important personally to my recovery. ACOA has done a better job in this -- but I am still uncomfortable with the steps. But that's just me.
That said, I know of many who have been helped by the 12-step model and adhere to it to maintain their own progress. I know of many who have adapted to things in the program that may have otherwise made them uncomfortable by reinterpreting words or ideas. And I now look at everyone as individuals in their recovery process, no matter what path they choose.
Five -- one of my primary codependent issues has been dealing with authority. It goes back a long way. I understand your anger, and your rage. I have long railed against those in power or who put themselves in positions of authority, but don't seem to 'get it'. Or worse, can cause damage. I think you're coming out of an honorable place. It may be worthwhile looking at the intensity. I know when I'm feeling that kind of intensity -- which I still can -- there's something else behind it.
I just wanted to say I 'get' where you're coming from.
best
gf
Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 689
I thought I'd take a moment to post Charlotte Kasl's 16 steps. Kasl developed these specifically for women, as an alternative to the 12 steps with the goal of developing a more wholistic model of healing and recovery.
1) We affirm we have the power to take charge of our lives and stop being dependent on substances or other people for our self-esteem and security.
Alternative: We admit/acknowledge we are out of control with/powerless over ________ yet have the power to take charge of our lives and stop being dependent on substances or other people for our self-esteem and security.
2) We come to believe that God/Goddess/Universe/Great Spirit/Higher Power awakens the healing wisdom within us when we open ourselves to the power.
3) We make a decision to become our authentic selves and trust in the healing power of the truth.
4) We examine our beliefs, addictions and dependent behavior in the context of living in a hierarchical, patriarchal culture.
5) We share with another person and the Universe all those things inside of us for which we feel shame and guilt.
6) We affirm and enjoy our intelligence, strengths and creativity, remembering not to hide these qualities from ourselves and others.
7) We become willing to let go of shame, guilt, and any behavior that keeps us from loving ourselves and others.
8) We make a list of people we have harmed and people who have harmed us, and take steps to clear out negative energy by making amends and sharing our grievances in a respectful way.
9) We express love and gratitude to others and increasingly appreciate the wonder of life and the blessings we do have.
10) We learn to trust our reality and daily affirm that we see what we see, we know what we know and we feel what we feel.
11) We promptly admit to mistakes and make amends when appropriate, but we do not say we are sorry for things we have not done and we do not cover up, analyze, or take responsibility for the shortcomings of others.
12) We seek out situations, jobs, and people who affirm our intelligence, perceptions and self-worth and avoid situations or people who are hurtful, harmful, or demeaning to us.
13) We take steps to heal our physical bodies, organize our lives, reduce stress, and have fun.
14) We seek to find our inward calling, and develop the will and wisdom to follow it.
15) We accept the ups and downs of life as natural events that can be used as lessons for our growth.
16) We grow in awareness that we are sacred beings, interrelated with all livings things, and we contribute to restoring peace and balance on the planet.
1) We affirm we have the power to take charge of our lives and stop being dependent on substances or other people for our self-esteem and security.
Alternative: We admit/acknowledge we are out of control with/powerless over ________ yet have the power to take charge of our lives and stop being dependent on substances or other people for our self-esteem and security.
2) We come to believe that God/Goddess/Universe/Great Spirit/Higher Power awakens the healing wisdom within us when we open ourselves to the power.
3) We make a decision to become our authentic selves and trust in the healing power of the truth.
4) We examine our beliefs, addictions and dependent behavior in the context of living in a hierarchical, patriarchal culture.
5) We share with another person and the Universe all those things inside of us for which we feel shame and guilt.
6) We affirm and enjoy our intelligence, strengths and creativity, remembering not to hide these qualities from ourselves and others.
7) We become willing to let go of shame, guilt, and any behavior that keeps us from loving ourselves and others.
8) We make a list of people we have harmed and people who have harmed us, and take steps to clear out negative energy by making amends and sharing our grievances in a respectful way.
9) We express love and gratitude to others and increasingly appreciate the wonder of life and the blessings we do have.
10) We learn to trust our reality and daily affirm that we see what we see, we know what we know and we feel what we feel.
11) We promptly admit to mistakes and make amends when appropriate, but we do not say we are sorry for things we have not done and we do not cover up, analyze, or take responsibility for the shortcomings of others.
12) We seek out situations, jobs, and people who affirm our intelligence, perceptions and self-worth and avoid situations or people who are hurtful, harmful, or demeaning to us.
13) We take steps to heal our physical bodies, organize our lives, reduce stress, and have fun.
14) We seek to find our inward calling, and develop the will and wisdom to follow it.
15) We accept the ups and downs of life as natural events that can be used as lessons for our growth.
16) We grow in awareness that we are sacred beings, interrelated with all livings things, and we contribute to restoring peace and balance on the planet.
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: England
Posts: 3,410
Originally Posted by Five
Your right Eq. I would call it spiritual rape - mental and emotional manipulation...........
Mental and emotional rape? Week in week out? Told or impllied that your a useless peace of crap
Mental and emotional rape? Week in week out? Told or impllied that your a useless peace of crap
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
