NCguy
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Litterbox City
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Being the daughter of an alcoholic, I had plenty of time to "sort things for myself." But my way of sorting things was developed by living in a dysfunctional family. Guess what, I sorted it so well I married an alcoholic. If my mother had the clarity to get me to a counselor, who knows what changes may have resulted? Of course they are angry, and so is Guy, but sorting things for yourself from the perspective of behaviors learned by dealing with dysfunction only leads to more dysfunction.
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: novato, ca
Posts: 181
guy
I'm probably going to catch some flack for this but here goes... (keep in mind, these are just my opinions). It is up to you and your children to decide whether or not you need counseling. If you were showing signs of denial or ignorance about something and needed a quick reality check, I'd be say get therapy quick. But, in general, there's nothing quick about therapy. Even if you are, eventually, able to find the right therapist for you, there's still nothing quick about therapy... with the exception of learning cognitive therapy techniques and even that is a skill aquired and practiced over a lifetime. Therapy is about spending time looking and the hard stuff in life which can be an awfully dark place to spend time.
I first started therapy when I was in jr. high (a very long time ago). And I went to therapists on and off for many, many years. Did it help? In some ways yes but in others no. I think it helped me dwell in the dark places in my life too much. I (eventually) graduated from university with a degree in psychology so you would think I'd be very pro therapy right? Wrong. What I am is very pro making the best of life while you can because... life is short and then you die.
As for whether or not psychologically healthy people are required to speak to their parents... why is it we are encouraged to terminate the toxic relationships we have with spouses but not our parents? I haven't even bothered to figure out if my abusive father has been alive for decades. As a matter of fact, a lot of my therapy revolved around the fact of my mother's misguided belief that I should have a relationship with my father... and I held that against her for a long time. My husband hasn't dealt with his abusive mother in years... his sister has, had a gun pulled on her for her trouble and is still having difficulty "detatching."
On the other hand... I do agree with Jazzman about the usefulness of a manual. I got my husband the book "Three Minute Therapy" and it has helped him A LOT. I also recently saw what looks like a great book that I want to get... aargh, can't remember the name, I'll have to get back to you on that one.
Anyway... you sound to me like you're doing a very good job handling a very difficult situation.
I'm probably going to catch some flack for this but here goes... (keep in mind, these are just my opinions). It is up to you and your children to decide whether or not you need counseling. If you were showing signs of denial or ignorance about something and needed a quick reality check, I'd be say get therapy quick. But, in general, there's nothing quick about therapy. Even if you are, eventually, able to find the right therapist for you, there's still nothing quick about therapy... with the exception of learning cognitive therapy techniques and even that is a skill aquired and practiced over a lifetime. Therapy is about spending time looking and the hard stuff in life which can be an awfully dark place to spend time.
I first started therapy when I was in jr. high (a very long time ago). And I went to therapists on and off for many, many years. Did it help? In some ways yes but in others no. I think it helped me dwell in the dark places in my life too much. I (eventually) graduated from university with a degree in psychology so you would think I'd be very pro therapy right? Wrong. What I am is very pro making the best of life while you can because... life is short and then you die.
As for whether or not psychologically healthy people are required to speak to their parents... why is it we are encouraged to terminate the toxic relationships we have with spouses but not our parents? I haven't even bothered to figure out if my abusive father has been alive for decades. As a matter of fact, a lot of my therapy revolved around the fact of my mother's misguided belief that I should have a relationship with my father... and I held that against her for a long time. My husband hasn't dealt with his abusive mother in years... his sister has, had a gun pulled on her for her trouble and is still having difficulty "detatching."
On the other hand... I do agree with Jazzman about the usefulness of a manual. I got my husband the book "Three Minute Therapy" and it has helped him A LOT. I also recently saw what looks like a great book that I want to get... aargh, can't remember the name, I'll have to get back to you on that one.
Anyway... you sound to me like you're doing a very good job handling a very difficult situation.
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Join Date: Jan 2006
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To Gypsy:
I don't think anyone was suggesting the children need to have a relationship with their mother. I have read a lot of Guy's posts and there is a strong undercurrent of anger and resentment in most of them. And now he has said that his oldest daughter despises her mother. The suggestion for counseling (at least from me) is not aimed a a relationship with the mother. It is a suggestion for learning to cope with and release that anger so that is doesn't continue making them all miserable. And so, hopefully, his children do not grow up and repeat the same alcoholic/codependent patterns, like I did. At least that's where I was coming from.
L
I don't think anyone was suggesting the children need to have a relationship with their mother. I have read a lot of Guy's posts and there is a strong undercurrent of anger and resentment in most of them. And now he has said that his oldest daughter despises her mother. The suggestion for counseling (at least from me) is not aimed a a relationship with the mother. It is a suggestion for learning to cope with and release that anger so that is doesn't continue making them all miserable. And so, hopefully, his children do not grow up and repeat the same alcoholic/codependent patterns, like I did. At least that's where I was coming from.
L
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Lost in NC
Posts: 416
Curious.....what is wrong with being angry. Or for that matter, having no respect for people who done you wrong.
I have forgiven my wife. However, when she pulls stupid stunts, lies, ignores the kids.....it makes me angry.
My girls have a right to be angry. But none of us dwell on it, except when its something new, like what happened this weekend.
Angry is not a sin. This not judging or anything else.
I have forgiven my wife. However, when she pulls stupid stunts, lies, ignores the kids.....it makes me angry.
My girls have a right to be angry. But none of us dwell on it, except when its something new, like what happened this weekend.
Angry is not a sin. This not judging or anything else.
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,333
Anger is ok as long as it is dealt with. If you harbor it, it can become
dangerous. I am sure many a murderer, arsonist, rapist have a lot of
anger ....buried deep.....nothing good can come from anger not processed.
dangerous. I am sure many a murderer, arsonist, rapist have a lot of
anger ....buried deep.....nothing good can come from anger not processed.
Acting not reacting
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: My happy place
Posts: 1,788
OK.
Im going to go straight to the point here.
Guy, your healing is more important right now, than your childrens. I know I know...heres why.
It is impossible in most situations for the children to make sense of anything, heal, and grow, when they have 2 dysfunctional parents. Until you are healthy, you are of no emotional help to those kids. They need a healthy parent.
Your children will be more positively affected if you start getting help for yourself. They will see, hey dad cares about himself. Dad is upset too.
Dads feelings are hurt. They will learn that its not normal to be reageful, its not healthy to bottle up emotions, and its not wrong to ask for help.
If you do not work through the sadness and anger you have, it will negatively affect your children.
Im going to go straight to the point here.
Guy, your healing is more important right now, than your childrens. I know I know...heres why.
It is impossible in most situations for the children to make sense of anything, heal, and grow, when they have 2 dysfunctional parents. Until you are healthy, you are of no emotional help to those kids. They need a healthy parent.
Your children will be more positively affected if you start getting help for yourself. They will see, hey dad cares about himself. Dad is upset too.
Dads feelings are hurt. They will learn that its not normal to be reageful, its not healthy to bottle up emotions, and its not wrong to ask for help.
If you do not work through the sadness and anger you have, it will negatively affect your children.
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Join Date: Jan 2006
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Posts: 6,278
Originally Posted by elizabeth1979
OK.
Im going to go straight to the point here.
Guy, your healing is more important right now, than your childrens. I know I know...heres why.
It is impossible in most situations for the children to make sense of anything, heal, and grow, when they have 2 dysfunctional parents. Until you are healthy, you are of no emotional help to those kids. They need a healthy parent.
Your children will be more positively affected if you start getting help for yourself. They will see, hey dad cares about himself. Dad is upset too.
Dads feelings are hurt. They will learn that its not normal to be reageful, its not healthy to bottle up emotions, and its not wrong to ask for help.
If you do not work through the sadness and anger you have, it will negatively affect your children.
Im going to go straight to the point here.
Guy, your healing is more important right now, than your childrens. I know I know...heres why.
It is impossible in most situations for the children to make sense of anything, heal, and grow, when they have 2 dysfunctional parents. Until you are healthy, you are of no emotional help to those kids. They need a healthy parent.
Your children will be more positively affected if you start getting help for yourself. They will see, hey dad cares about himself. Dad is upset too.
Dads feelings are hurt. They will learn that its not normal to be reageful, its not healthy to bottle up emotions, and its not wrong to ask for help.
If you do not work through the sadness and anger you have, it will negatively affect your children.
SE, has anyone told you lately how wonderfully insightful you are and how much your recovery is shining?
Acting not reacting
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: My happy place
Posts: 1,788
Thanks ladies. Its because of people like you that I am where I am...so hates off to you and everyone who helped me see things for what they really were!
I could be stuck and still where I was, and I was very angry. But, that place sucks and I dont want to be there!
I could be stuck and still where I was, and I was very angry. But, that place sucks and I dont want to be there!
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,579
Originally Posted by guyinNC
Curious.....what is wrong with being angry. Or for that matter, having no respect for people who done you wrong.
I have forgiven my wife. However, when she pulls stupid stunts, lies, ignores the kids.....it makes me angry.
My girls have a right to be angry. But none of us dwell on it, except when its something new, like what happened this weekend.
Angry is not a sin. This not judging or anything else.
I have forgiven my wife. However, when she pulls stupid stunts, lies, ignores the kids.....it makes me angry.
My girls have a right to be angry. But none of us dwell on it, except when its something new, like what happened this weekend.
Angry is not a sin. This not judging or anything else.
I have to agree.....it is what it is. If you accept that you have it and then et past it, I think that is normal. Why analyze and over-analyze it.....? JMHO
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: novato, ca
Posts: 181
guy
I think the only thing "wrong" with anger is that it's a negative place to be and life is too short to waste time being in a negative place. As long as you're not living in that place, anger is just one of the many emotions we all feel sometimes and it can even help motivate us to do something positive about a situation. Nothing wrong with that.
I think the only thing "wrong" with anger is that it's a negative place to be and life is too short to waste time being in a negative place. As long as you're not living in that place, anger is just one of the many emotions we all feel sometimes and it can even help motivate us to do something positive about a situation. Nothing wrong with that.
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,333
Originally Posted by guyinNC
Curious.....what is wrong with being angry. Or for that matter, having no respect for people who done you wrong.
I have forgiven my wife. However, when she pulls stupid stunts, lies, ignores the kids.....it makes me angry.
What others do is none of our business...getting angy at your wife for
HER stupid stunts and Her lies or the way SHE chooses to deal with the
kids is really all her business.....Now how you handle your life is yours to own.
Curious.....what is wrong with being angry. Or for that matter, having no respect for people who done you wrong.
I have forgiven my wife. However, when she pulls stupid stunts, lies, ignores the kids.....it makes me angry.
What others do is none of our business...getting angy at your wife for
HER stupid stunts and Her lies or the way SHE chooses to deal with the
kids is really all her business.....Now how you handle your life is yours to own.
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 3,812
Hey Guy...
Your right, anger is not a sin and is perfectly normal to feel...
For me growing up with my Mom being an A well to say the least our family was dysfuncial... In my teens I tryed to go to Al-anon ... I needed other kids my age perspective.... I dont know about you but when I was 16 my Mom and Dad were stupid as dirt and I was brillant... so were the other kids my age... I needed the peers and my parents could not give me that. Unfortunally I did not get the help, My Al-teen career was put to a painful and abrupt halt when my mother found out.... SO I went on to "deal" with it myself...... later I married and A. It was not till I agreed to have a child that I realized a dysfuncial parent could not raise a funcinal child..... My biggest fear in having a child is I would hate her, I would hurt her and I would be jealous of her because that is all I knew... that is how I "thought" my mother felt about me. I internalized most of it when I was young and had SO much hate and anger inside of me.
I have got to many many therapist over the years, its like being an onion for me... I keep having to take the layers off to become a better person. I have had some REALLY bad ones and fired them but I can honestly say that the good ones have helped me in ways I can only thank God for.
Your right, anger is not a sin and is perfectly normal to feel...
For me growing up with my Mom being an A well to say the least our family was dysfuncial... In my teens I tryed to go to Al-anon ... I needed other kids my age perspective.... I dont know about you but when I was 16 my Mom and Dad were stupid as dirt and I was brillant... so were the other kids my age... I needed the peers and my parents could not give me that. Unfortunally I did not get the help, My Al-teen career was put to a painful and abrupt halt when my mother found out.... SO I went on to "deal" with it myself...... later I married and A. It was not till I agreed to have a child that I realized a dysfuncial parent could not raise a funcinal child..... My biggest fear in having a child is I would hate her, I would hurt her and I would be jealous of her because that is all I knew... that is how I "thought" my mother felt about me. I internalized most of it when I was young and had SO much hate and anger inside of me.
I have got to many many therapist over the years, its like being an onion for me... I keep having to take the layers off to become a better person. I have had some REALLY bad ones and fired them but I can honestly say that the good ones have helped me in ways I can only thank God for.
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,579
As for the concentrating on getting yourself healthy first.....I think that is true. (probably why you/we are here) Much like the oxygen mask: parents first. The healthier you get, the healthier they will be,too.
Do what you need to do but don't get too overly concerned by a relapse here and there........it is a part of recovery. Just keep going.
As for the experience I have with my two children: My 18y old daughter is refusing any counseling (we had a very bad experience with it last year) but I notice she does read Alanon One Day at a Time, and other books (esp. in the bathroom haha). She also read A Million Little Pieces,etc. She doesn't like to vocalize much of the stuff about her dad's "choices". Pushing shuts her down.
Her brother is different......he talks about it to me. Sometimes to his dad....he calls him on "his stuff" (they both do to some extent). He had such a bad experience with the counselling last year, he filed a complaint with the State board and the doctor evidently got 2 complaints logged against him, he was told. He still went through counseling with another therapist for several months.....go figure. I guess what I am saying is each child is unique and so is their solution.
Do what you need to do but don't get too overly concerned by a relapse here and there........it is a part of recovery. Just keep going.
As for the experience I have with my two children: My 18y old daughter is refusing any counseling (we had a very bad experience with it last year) but I notice she does read Alanon One Day at a Time, and other books (esp. in the bathroom haha). She also read A Million Little Pieces,etc. She doesn't like to vocalize much of the stuff about her dad's "choices". Pushing shuts her down.
Her brother is different......he talks about it to me. Sometimes to his dad....he calls him on "his stuff" (they both do to some extent). He had such a bad experience with the counselling last year, he filed a complaint with the State board and the doctor evidently got 2 complaints logged against him, he was told. He still went through counseling with another therapist for several months.....go figure. I guess what I am saying is each child is unique and so is their solution.
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,333
Pick a name...I agree a relapse will happen here or there during recovery...
I think where I have a question here is .....Guy doesn't think he has a problem
so therefore isn't in recovery. He just keeps repeating the same old
habits and patterns (nothing changes if nothing changes) and doesn't
understand why he falls prey to his wife's inconsistancy.
I think where I have a question here is .....Guy doesn't think he has a problem
so therefore isn't in recovery. He just keeps repeating the same old
habits and patterns (nothing changes if nothing changes) and doesn't
understand why he falls prey to his wife's inconsistancy.
One brief hour...
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Anywhere, USA
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Gypsyrose said: I think the only thing "wrong" with anger is that it's a negative place to be and life is too short to waste time being in a negative place. As long as you're not living in that place, anger is just one of the many emotions we all feel sometimes and it can even help motivate us to do something positive about a situation. Nothing wrong with that.
.Guy, your situation sucks and no one here can argue with that. The real question is what are YOU going to do about it? You can choose to either harbor those nasty feelings or confront them head on, learn how to deal with them constructively and move forward with a feeling of peace. A great counselor can help you do that.
I believe that you are good father and that you are doing your very best to pick up the pieces for your kids. They have their own issues swimming around in their heads regarding all of this and rightly so. For them to come out of this with as few issues as possible, they should see a counselor as well. A mother abandoning her children is a devastating cross for a child to bear. It is not their fault and they need to know it- really know it.
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ohio
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Originally Posted by ASpouse
Pick..... you agree with this? What happened to live and let live? Just curious, not being confrontational?
I didn't mean to say "wow...I'm angry and I should be and what are you going to do about it " or something like that! haha I just mean being angry is an emotion/almost a reaction......STAYING angry is a choice.
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