Alcoholism. Disease or weakness?
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Aspouse,
Thank you, I don't take it personally. I can see how someone that has been repeatedly let down and hurt by an alcoholic's behavior, drinking or not, could feel that way. I know that I have personal experience with alcoholism and I have first hand information about what it was like to live with me for ten years. When I made amends to my former wife, I asked how my drinking and actions affected her. She said the biggest hurt was watching a man that she fell in love with turn into someone that she couldn't love. And that I wouldn't let her love me. That was fifteen years ago and we are friends now. So I think I do know, at least to some degree, what I'm talking about. Have to go to work now, bye.
Jim
Thank you, I don't take it personally. I can see how someone that has been repeatedly let down and hurt by an alcoholic's behavior, drinking or not, could feel that way. I know that I have personal experience with alcoholism and I have first hand information about what it was like to live with me for ten years. When I made amends to my former wife, I asked how my drinking and actions affected her. She said the biggest hurt was watching a man that she fell in love with turn into someone that she couldn't love. And that I wouldn't let her love me. That was fifteen years ago and we are friends now. So I think I do know, at least to some degree, what I'm talking about. Have to go to work now, bye.
Jim
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Originally Posted by mallowcup
I was sexually assaulted by two uncles, ironically from different sides of the family. They were both drunk at the time. I was violated and it was all reduced to the fact that they couldn't help themselves, they were alcoholics. Screw the rest, sure if only that had been an option for a 12 year old girl. Children and wives and husbands are being devastated by people who have a choic to pick up a drink or not. If your body were violated by a person who was drunk, you'd at least question it. In the effort to detach, everyone turned their head to it. They have a problem with drinking ans I should just stay away from them. In an effort to carry on without allowing these Uncles to ruin or dictate our family gatherings, I was forced to sit across form them at many a Thanksgiving table.
These are two separate issues you have mallowcup, my suggestion is not to confuse the two, they don't always go hand in hand. It's your choice to sit across from them at the table or not for any meal. Like the alcoholic, no one is forcing them to drink, they, in your estimation make that choice. You also make the choice to sit across from evil people at a dinner table. It works both ways.
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Ayers 1995 and TexasGirl,
A friend of mine used to tell me that we teach people how to treat us. It took me a long time to figure that one out.
I taught the abusive A's in my life how to treat me by being a doormat, buying into their nonsense and manipulations, by playing the poor me victim, by accepting the unacceptable from them. This had nothing to do with their alcoholism and mental illness. IT ALL HAD TO DO WITH ME AND MY EQUATION IN THE ALCOHOLIC RELATIONSHIP. When I took responsibility for my part in it that all changed.
Unacceptable behavior is unacceptable behavior plain and simple.
If we comtinue to accept it, they will continue to dish it out.
Maybe instead of focussing on whether alcoholism is a disease (and take it from this recovering alcoholic it is) the focus should be on your side of the street and why do you let the A's in your life treat you unacceptably?
Ngaire
A friend of mine used to tell me that we teach people how to treat us. It took me a long time to figure that one out.
I taught the abusive A's in my life how to treat me by being a doormat, buying into their nonsense and manipulations, by playing the poor me victim, by accepting the unacceptable from them. This had nothing to do with their alcoholism and mental illness. IT ALL HAD TO DO WITH ME AND MY EQUATION IN THE ALCOHOLIC RELATIONSHIP. When I took responsibility for my part in it that all changed.
Unacceptable behavior is unacceptable behavior plain and simple.
If we comtinue to accept it, they will continue to dish it out.
Maybe instead of focussing on whether alcoholism is a disease (and take it from this recovering alcoholic it is) the focus should be on your side of the street and why do you let the A's in your life treat you unacceptably?
Ngaire
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Originally Posted by mallowcup
It has always been interesting to me how this uncontrollable drinking semed quite well controlled when they were at theri jobs or when the grandparents were around.
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I understand the discomfort with calling addiction a disease. By using the word disease, it's impossible not to have confusion by using the same label used for other medical conditions that are truly out of a person's control, such as multiple sclerosis or leukemia. I believe the addiction community needs a new language to avoid the very kind of debate and confusion this thread is about.
For what it's worth, here's my take. Addiction is not a disease. MS is a disease.
Addictions develop, people turn to addictive substances and behaviors, as a way to cope with internal pain and wounding. Call this pain for what it is -- emotional trauma, the result of emotional, physical or sexual abuse that is unfortunately much more the norm than the exception in our society.
It's very serious, it's very threatening. But it is not a disease. And it can be completely overwhelming and cause a person to feel they have no control over their behavior. And in fact, they don't, until they acknowlege and address the underlying issues. But it is not a disease. Once a chemical addiction is in full force, there are also physiological addictive factors involved. Yet, the underlying motivation remains a wish to manage, hide, avoid, deny, control emotional pain. Unhappiness. To not feel it. But it is not a disease. No one developed meningitis or parkinson's as a way to manage emotional pain or trauma.
In no way am I minimizing this emotional pain by removing the word disease. The amount of pain and wounding in us human beings is overwhelming. It's critical and it needs intensive care just as a biological disease needs intensive care.
But this is where the notion of choice comes in. Avoiding alcohol, or any other addictive substance or behavior, isn't simply about saying no or of having self-control. It's not simply not picking up a drink, etc. That's ignoring the underlying issues.
The matter of choice comes in saying yes.
It's in saying yes by firmly acknowledging that there are very deep-rooted feelings and pain fueling the addiction, that these feelings are what make it so very difficult to avoid the addictive behavior, and saying yes to getting treatment and help for the pain, the depression, the suicidal feelings, the numbness, the stress, the anger, the fear, the grief, the exhaustion, the despair, the hopelessness, the resentment, the dreams unlived, etc. etc. etc.
my two cents
gf
For what it's worth, here's my take. Addiction is not a disease. MS is a disease.
Addictions develop, people turn to addictive substances and behaviors, as a way to cope with internal pain and wounding. Call this pain for what it is -- emotional trauma, the result of emotional, physical or sexual abuse that is unfortunately much more the norm than the exception in our society.
It's very serious, it's very threatening. But it is not a disease. And it can be completely overwhelming and cause a person to feel they have no control over their behavior. And in fact, they don't, until they acknowlege and address the underlying issues. But it is not a disease. Once a chemical addiction is in full force, there are also physiological addictive factors involved. Yet, the underlying motivation remains a wish to manage, hide, avoid, deny, control emotional pain. Unhappiness. To not feel it. But it is not a disease. No one developed meningitis or parkinson's as a way to manage emotional pain or trauma.
In no way am I minimizing this emotional pain by removing the word disease. The amount of pain and wounding in us human beings is overwhelming. It's critical and it needs intensive care just as a biological disease needs intensive care.
But this is where the notion of choice comes in. Avoiding alcohol, or any other addictive substance or behavior, isn't simply about saying no or of having self-control. It's not simply not picking up a drink, etc. That's ignoring the underlying issues.
The matter of choice comes in saying yes.
It's in saying yes by firmly acknowledging that there are very deep-rooted feelings and pain fueling the addiction, that these feelings are what make it so very difficult to avoid the addictive behavior, and saying yes to getting treatment and help for the pain, the depression, the suicidal feelings, the numbness, the stress, the anger, the fear, the grief, the exhaustion, the despair, the hopelessness, the resentment, the dreams unlived, etc. etc. etc.
my two cents
gf
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At 12, I had no choices where I sat at dinner. I sat where I was told. Until I was 18 and out on my own, I didn't even realize that I had been conditioned to accept this as normal. That's just the way it was. This extends far beyond me and my circumstance. Drining and some form of abuse do run together. That's just it. When you are connected to an alcoholic, you tend to minimize verbal abuse and reduce it to nothing really, "he just hurt my feelings". "He just slapped me, it wasn't like he hit me with a closed fist".
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Hey there mallowcup, and thank you for sharing what must be extremely painful to you.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the impression that you are saying that the word "disease" is somehow used as an excuse for harmful behavior. If my impression is correct then I think we only disagree on the definition of the word "disease". To me there is _no_ excuse for harming other people. None.
As far as the denial that your biological family used, I am familiar with that. My grandfather raped most of us kids, and he had no addiction or "disease" of any kind. I understand the feelings you mention about having to sit across a table and pretend that nothing happened. My grandfather was the only person in my biological family who did not beat me, so my choice was to cuddle up on his lap and act cute or get the ()*(&* beat out of me by the other adults, most of whom were drunk.
What I have done is not associate with people who drink. Whether they have a "disease" or not. I even asked my wife not to ever drink, as I still had a lot of emotions over the issue.
I don't care whether we agree or not about the "disease". I know a little of how much pain you are going thru, and that's good enough for me. As far as I'm concerned you are one of "us" and you will be in my prayers.
Mike :-)
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the impression that you are saying that the word "disease" is somehow used as an excuse for harmful behavior. If my impression is correct then I think we only disagree on the definition of the word "disease". To me there is _no_ excuse for harming other people. None.
As far as the denial that your biological family used, I am familiar with that. My grandfather raped most of us kids, and he had no addiction or "disease" of any kind. I understand the feelings you mention about having to sit across a table and pretend that nothing happened. My grandfather was the only person in my biological family who did not beat me, so my choice was to cuddle up on his lap and act cute or get the ()*(&* beat out of me by the other adults, most of whom were drunk.
What I have done is not associate with people who drink. Whether they have a "disease" or not. I even asked my wife not to ever drink, as I still had a lot of emotions over the issue.
I don't care whether we agree or not about the "disease". I know a little of how much pain you are going thru, and that's good enough for me. As far as I'm concerned you are one of "us" and you will be in my prayers.
Mike :-)
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My alcoholic husband as never abusive to me, either verbally or physically. He was just mentally absent. He is recovering now.
Now the other A I lived with, he was abusive. He beat me up one time and I was gone. No excuses ...... I thought too much of myself to have someone beat me!
Now the other A I lived with, he was abusive. He beat me up one time and I was gone. No excuses ...... I thought too much of myself to have someone beat me!
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I don't know if it is a disease or complusion. I do know that in my AH's father was an alcoholic and that many of my BILs are as well. I know of other families with the same history. Do they become addicted to alcohol because of genetics, or because that is what they grew up around?
As far as quitting an addiction cold turkey, smoking is addictive. My father was a heavy smoker, 1-2 packs a day. Started when he was 14. Yet one day, I had trouble breathing after he did some work in my room, so he just quit. No help. No treatments. Cold turkey. He'd smoked for 35 years. My sister smokes and has tried to quit several times and failed. Some people can do cold turkey. Some cannot. Is it willpower?
As far as quitting an addiction cold turkey, smoking is addictive. My father was a heavy smoker, 1-2 packs a day. Started when he was 14. Yet one day, I had trouble breathing after he did some work in my room, so he just quit. No help. No treatments. Cold turkey. He'd smoked for 35 years. My sister smokes and has tried to quit several times and failed. Some people can do cold turkey. Some cannot. Is it willpower?
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No it isn't painful. I wasn't raped. The firs time I was pinned up against the kitchen sink and I kneed him. the second time I was the only one home and I was dressing in my room. the door was cracked open and I looked up from my vanity mirror to see my Uncle standing there watching me. When he saw that I saw him, it scared the crap out of me, he pushed the door open and came at me. I slapped his face so hard his head must have jinggled, he turned and ran. I told my parents both times and they were not enraged, nothing was ever said about it to either of their wives.
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gypsyrose,
Thank you as well. One reason I like to talk to family members who are affected by alcoholics and alcoholism is that it helps to understand that side of the coin. So you all help me as well.
Jim
Thank you as well. One reason I like to talk to family members who are affected by alcoholics and alcoholism is that it helps to understand that side of the coin. So you all help me as well.
Jim
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First thing in the a.m. he said, the second his head rose off the pillow, he thought about what he was going to drink, when he was going to drink it, where he was going to get it and where he was going to get the money for it. Every day he said, that was his first thoughts.
This is the same scenario I've described to folks who make unkind remarks about my weight and then ask, "why don't you just stop eating?" Folks who don't suffer from a compulsion can't seem to comprehend how difficult it is to break the cycle.
Is my obsession with a food a disease or simply a compulsion? I don't know. All I know is that it controls my life and I have no control over it. I understand an alcoholic or drug addict can get their addictions under control by avoiding alcohol or drugs, but how can a person who is addicted to food ever gain control if the very substance they need to survive is the object of their obsession?
Does addiction run in families? They do in mine (my mother's side of the family only). Here's a rundown:
My great-grandfather was an alcoholic.
My grandfather and grandmother were not alcoholics.
Yet two of their four children became alcoholics.
One of their children became addicted to prescription drugs.
One of their children (my mother) became addicted to shopping.
One of my five brothers and I became addicted to food.
Another brother became addicted to gambling.
There was never any alcohol in my parent's home and none of my six siblings are addicted to alcohol or drugs, but three of us suffer from other addictions.
I chose an alcoholic as my boyfriend.
Is addiction inherited or is it a product of our environments? I don't drink. I don't like the way alcohol tastes or the way it clouds my mind. I don't use drugs of any kind. I don't gamble and I hate to shop. But food is a different story altogether.
Did I learn this from my mother and father? They aren't addicted to food. So what drives me to behave the way I do? Addiction or disease?
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I think alcohol is a mental disease. I have chronic depression too, also classified as a 'disease'.
I do think though, that it's a disease that we have for life, one that we can control by abstaining. It's like diabeties, taking Jim's brilliant example. The people that have it can control it by taking their insulin shots or being cautious in their diets.
I also have Graves Disease. So I consider myself as having three diseases rather than two and an addiction.
I don't think we are trying to encourage enablement by saying that it is a disease. After all, it is one that we are able to curtail, despite all difficulties. But we have this disease for life. We cannot abstain one day and then choose to drink without repurcussions a year later. We will always be at the mercy of alcohol, should we allow ourselves to either be in denial of it, or allow ourselves to self-destruct.
I do think though, that it's a disease that we have for life, one that we can control by abstaining. It's like diabeties, taking Jim's brilliant example. The people that have it can control it by taking their insulin shots or being cautious in their diets.
I also have Graves Disease. So I consider myself as having three diseases rather than two and an addiction.
I don't think we are trying to encourage enablement by saying that it is a disease. After all, it is one that we are able to curtail, despite all difficulties. But we have this disease for life. We cannot abstain one day and then choose to drink without repurcussions a year later. We will always be at the mercy of alcohol, should we allow ourselves to either be in denial of it, or allow ourselves to self-destruct.
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mallowcup,
I believe that it is alcoholism, not alcohol that is the problem. and from reading some of your most recent posts on other threads, I would say that right now you are at the mercy of alcoholism as it is manifested in your husband. I do not say this in an unkind way, but you are allowing it to make you unhappy and bitter and miserable. You have a choice of whether you want to be that way. Stop focusing on whether or not your husband is a weak or an ill person and look at yourself.
I believe that it is alcoholism, not alcohol that is the problem. and from reading some of your most recent posts on other threads, I would say that right now you are at the mercy of alcoholism as it is manifested in your husband. I do not say this in an unkind way, but you are allowing it to make you unhappy and bitter and miserable. You have a choice of whether you want to be that way. Stop focusing on whether or not your husband is a weak or an ill person and look at yourself.
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When you are at the mercy of something or someone, you have no choices. I have choices. I am upset about my husbands drinking but I am NOT at the mercy of it. That's just plain insulting to people with end stage cancer, people who are blind and other irreversable circumstances. I am in a process, this is not my destination. I am in no way resigned to staying with an alcoholic no matter what.
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Alcoholism, Disease or weakness?
Originally Posted by mallowcup
When you are at the mercy of something or someone, you have no choices. I have choices. I am upset about my husbands drinking but I am NOT at the mercy of it. That's just plain insulting to people with end stage cancer, people who are blind and other irreversable circumstances. I am in a process, this is not my destination. I am in no way resigned to staying with an alcoholic no matter what.
Good for you. I am glad for you.
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