ASpouse

It's a need that their body has so yes, in reality it is like power that sucks them in.

Here's an example of myself: When I was single I rarely cooked for myself, but frequented many many fast food places and fast food restaurants. I loved fast food, I couldn't get enough it. Burgers, fries, chicken wings, subs, chips, you name it in the fast food category, I lived on it. Surprisingly I didn't get fat, but I knew deep down in the recesses of my mind that it was bad for me, very bad. So I said no more, I could eat healthy and be fine. Well, I have to tell you, kicking fast food was one of the hardest things I ever did, not up there with alcoholism, but by the withdrawal I had, I was addicted to junk food! I know sounds funny.

I smoke too. Just the thought of never smoking again, although smoking is not a mind altering drug like alcohol, scares the bejesus out of me. I've tried believe me. I've gotten up at 2am, knowing I intentionally made sure there were no more cigarettes, which would freak me out and I went out in my bathrobe, slippers and PJ's to find someplace open to buy cigarettes. An addiction, you bet it is and a scary one at that. I know they are going to kill me, but I can't stop.

I'm sure it is the same with the alcoholic .... it's frightening thinking "I can never drink again" or in my case "I can never smoke again". I have not accepted the simple fact that the cigarettes I smoke will someday play a big part in my death.

ranae1221

I heard someone say once " No man is worth crying over.....and the one that is, won't make you cry".

mallowcup

I don believe that alcoholism is a disease. I believe it is an addiction. I believe that preceiving it as a disease is the biggest enabler of all. If it's a disease we have to find a tolerance for it, something that a person does have a choice in.

Jazzman

I'm glad Alcoholism was classified as a disease by the AMA, so Doctors would treat it and more important, insurance companies would cover such treatment. It also paved the way for other addictions to be classified as a disease. My personal perception of addiction means nothing compared to insurance coverage of treatment.

jimhere

If I may, I'd like to share personal experience. I am an alcoholic. My experience is that once I start drinking, I have no idea how it will turn out. No idea how much or how long I will drink. I don't drink 'till I'm done, I drink 'till "it" is done. There a lot of consequences related to that-broken hearts of disapointed loved ones, legal problems. My family never knew if Santa Claus or the devil was going to be coming home. Or when I (or if) was coming home. I had to make a lot of amends because of it, and it took them years before they trusted me again. One reason it took so long to regain trust is that when I was full of remorse about my drinking behavior, I would promise to straighten out, and mean it with all my heart. I'm sure many of you have heard that before. I might do all right for 30-40 days or so, and then for no reason at all, I would drink again. Most of the time, the thought of where that might take me didn't even show up. I think some of the greatest harm I did the people who loved me was that evert time I fell down I'd get back up. I get everyone's hopes up and then dash those hopes. I was baffled and so were they. People would ask me why I did that and I couldn't give them a good reason. Alcoholics are people that drink with every reason not to and for no reason at all. I was not an evil person. It tore me up, hurting the people I loved. I didn't choose to do that. I don't know if disease is the right word or not. But I do know that my body reacts to alcohol differently than a non-alcoholic and there is a strange mental twist that occurs before the drink. I really can't expect a non-alcoholic to understand what's it like to experience that. Understand too, that it is no excuse for me not to take responsibility for my actions. I didn't choose to be an alcoholic, but I am responsible for my recovery. Just as diabetics is are responsible for taking care of themselves. Thanks for giving me the space here.
Jim

BigSis

Interesting, Mallowcup... I sometimes refer to it as a "condition"... but then I always think of psoriasis or a scalp condition or something (grin).

When I was young, I learned that diseases were caused by germs. A disease was only a thing of the body.

Later, I heard that folks I called "crazy" or "insane" were supposed to be called "mentally ill"... and the more I read, the more I realized that what they had (sometimes) was also a disease. And that it might have a physical/chemical basis, and required both a physical and psychological cure.

Some diseases include elements of behavior - for both cause and cure. Diabetes and heart disease both come to mind. Genetic predispositions, coupled with behaviors.

But your point about tolerance is well-taken. I asked myself, do I tolerate untreated diabetes or untreated heart disease? I think I do if they stay in their worlds and leave mine alone.

In this way, I think alcoholism is more like mental illness - and why it is somewhat different from nicotine addiction - the behavior changes as the "disease/condition" progresses. And it is the "bad" behavior that I am so intolerant of.

So, is that a good thing or a bad thing?... if the behavior never got mean, or nasty or intrusive, would anybody even notice or care about alcholism? Or would society/science treat it more like a disease and less like a problem of "
bad people"?

.... damn, and here I was already to go in and get some sleep. Now I will be up half the night thinking about this. (can you say... OBSESSION!... it NEVER goes away!)

ASpouse

Jim, I think what you had to say is very important. Thanks for sharing it.

mallowcup

I work with terminally ill children who have a disease. It is not their choice, there is no part of it that they can control. Jimhere, the cue words you used are"when I start drinking". Don't start. If you don't start, you can't get drunk. Drunk people have no good judgement to stop. It's not that they can't, they don't have the sense to. If you drink till "it's" done, I think intolerance to it would help "it" to end sooner rather than later. By classifying it as a disease, "it" becomes responsible. It isn't "it". It is you. Referencing the drinking and the behavior to "it", takes the heat off of you as if we were blaming a thrid party. I'm not trying to be harsh. I'm trying to speak to those who live around it. You always have the choice to pick up that drink. Remove yourself from it. We ave to at least entertain the idea that somone who drinks themself to death and kills the joy in childhood for his chidren, drools and stumbles is a selfish person. The disease is in having a weak disposition. You can pick up a drink or not.

mallowcup

Let's suppose that alcoholism was declassified as a disease. Wouldn't we havew a much easier time making healthy decisions for our lives, we live with it because we it's a disease. My husband totalled the second new car in two years on Fat Tuesday. He quit drinking for lent and apparently lent ended yesterday. He has been clean and dry for 40 days. He chose to buy a 12 pack yesterday and resume drinking. That was a choice, not a disease.

jimhere

I'm not disagreeing about the selfish part. And you are free to have your own view. I'm not blaming "it". I do not have a choice in whether I start or not. If I did, I would have stopped at about age 15, when the trouble started. And I do not have a weak disposition. I can usually make up my mind to do something, or get something done and do it. That is why stopping drinking was so frustrating-no matter how much I made up my mind, I couldn't seem to do it. Like I said, I really can't expect a non-alcoholic to understand, I am not going to debate this. In fact I probably won't post anymore about it. But I am not going to debate with people over their opinion of an experience they never had. By the way, I haven't removed myself from it, it has been removed from me.
Have a good day,
Jim

Jazzman

Mallowcup, if it was de-classified as a disease AND insurance companies no longer covered treatment for it, then my guess would be that fewer people would make the choice to seak treatment.

dan1958

Jim
Thanks for adding to this discussion. It's good to hear from the other side of the table. Everyone's comments were interesting.

ASpouse

Jim, we enablers can learn a lot from someone from the other side. We are a hurting bunch of folks, please don't take it personally.

Personally, if mallowcups husband is an alcoholic, it is doubtful in my mind he could quit for 40 days, or perhaps he is a binge drinker right now.

Ayers1995

Mallow - I tend to believe the same as you. They have the choice to drink or not.

In most cases, they have to make the decision to drive by/to the liquor store, they have to buy it, they have to pour it, they have to pick it up and drink it. How come in all of those steps they are 'unable' to make the choice NOT to? Doesn't seem logical.

As I said before about the substance (ecstacy) that I tried when i was younger. I had the craving for it, I would get worked up if I couldn't get any.... but I SAW that it was a problem and never touched it again. Yes, I think it was an addiction....I liked the way it made me feel...blah blah blah..... It's no different. I think having that experience I see it as a choice. Not the alcoholism - but the choice to drink.

mallowcup

So far as the insurance issues, I think that "a person with a drinking problem" has always been treated. Before this was considered a disease, less of the care plan depended on the persons compliance. The major shift in thinking was that the resonsibility was placed on the person with the problem. They don't have the ability. In the old days decisions were made in their best interest but without factoring them so heavily into their own success. An alcoholics issues were treated more of a medical issue. There was less tolerance for that being used as a reason to drive drunk, to beat your wife, trash your home. These were crimes. I'm just requesting that people entertain the idea that in the name of "disease", we tolerate things that are winthin the control of the person drinking.

CatsTail

Hi Ayers,

If Alcoholism was a question of self-control I would have stopped drinking no problem. But it isn;t it's a disease of the mind, body and spirit.


From your post it sounds like you are very caught up in him. You mentioned trying to meet his needs, what about your needs? If you work on those you'll feel much happier I bet.

Detachment preserves our sanity it has nothing to do with them.

Telling them to stop drinking is like telling a bear to not @#$% in the woods.

They don't see what their illness is doing they are too caught up in their illness.

But you have the power to change your side of the illness as there are two sides to Alcoholism. You have the choice to work on your side and not focus on his.

Ngaire

mallowcup

I believe that alcohol is not the disease, it is the medicine people use to self medicate. Morphine is not a disease. It is the medicine that people use to ease the pain of cancer.

Jazzman

Do you mean "YOU" tolerate living with an active addict because of the "disease" classification? You still have a choice regardless of any definition/opinion/perception/classification. I would think that only your definition AND boundaries would be applicable here. Screw the rest... know what I mean?

CatsTail

Sorry,

But TexasGirl, "Mastermind a plan to break through his denial"??????????????

Helloooooooo?????????

Ngaire

mallowcup

I was sexually assaulted by two uncles, ironically from different sides of the family. They were both drunk at the time. I was violated and it was all reduced to the fact that they couldn't help themselves, they were alcoholics. Screw the rest, sure if only that had been an option for a 12 year old girl. Children and wives and husbands are being devastated by people who have a choic to pick up a drink or not. If your body were violated by a person who was drunk, you'd at least question it. In the effort to detach, everyone turned their head to it. They have a problem with drinking ans I should just stay away from them. In an effort to carry on without allowing these Uncles to ruin or dictate our family gatherings, I was forced to sit across form them at many a Thanksgiving table.