Would you get involved with a recovering alcoholic?
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,333
What an interesing concept....12 steps taught to everyone...
Where would this begin...in a classroom setting at the age of 5?
This is something that should be taught at home as IMO, the
12 steps are essential in growing up healthy. With 98% (I do believe
that is the stat) of families that are dysfunctional who would be
qualified to teach them....
Just a thought coffe hasn't quite kicked in yet
Where would this begin...in a classroom setting at the age of 5?
This is something that should be taught at home as IMO, the
12 steps are essential in growing up healthy. With 98% (I do believe
that is the stat) of families that are dysfunctional who would be
qualified to teach them....
Just a thought coffe hasn't quite kicked in yet
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: North America
Posts: 60
Would I ever become involved with a receovering alcoholic? Interesting question and interesting thread. At this time I would say NO. But I have considered reconcilling with my AH, although that is not on the table at this time. we have a history and three children. A new person who is a recovering alcohholic? That would require reservoirs of trust that I simply do not have at this time. Hopefully I will begin to trust people again with the help of my HP, but right now I think I would run even if a non-A guy even asked me out for coffee. Thats just where I am right now.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 3,054
I've just realised that the 12 steps and recovery are often seen as synonymous. Neither D nor I 12 step and I suppose what I see as recovery is simpler - to me to recover is to get better, to heal then to go on living and I reckon we're both doing a fine job of that.
The recovery I looked for in D that came before he actually stopped drinking was a desire to live and actions that matched, THAT was what had changed in the years between and it's THAT which I believe has led to where he is now. Without that I would never have been more than a friend because we'd be on different paths going to different places.
The recovery I looked for in D that came before he actually stopped drinking was a desire to live and actions that matched, THAT was what had changed in the years between and it's THAT which I believe has led to where he is now. Without that I would never have been more than a friend because we'd be on different paths going to different places.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,333
Equus my friend you keep forgetting.....You and D are 2 very different and
special people...most people need more of a guide or a reference to live by.
Wanting/desiring to be healthy isn't enough for some, it requires so much more.
I am thinking along the lines of growing up in dysfunction only breeds more
dysfuntion and the 12 steps lend a hand in the right direction.
special people...most people need more of a guide or a reference to live by.
Wanting/desiring to be healthy isn't enough for some, it requires so much more.
I am thinking along the lines of growing up in dysfunction only breeds more
dysfuntion and the 12 steps lend a hand in the right direction.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 3,054
Hey - Patty, I'm not knocking the 12 steps just saying we are real too (honest gov - I'm not a phantom!!). I also think of people like Don.S here that have been sober for eons and dead level headed but don't 12 step - there's others too....
It struck my especially with Dax's post because none of those things are any issue for us - they just are NOT there.
It struck my especially with Dax's post because none of those things are any issue for us - they just are NOT there.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,333
I know many folks can get sober without the 12 steps.
What I meant was they can serve as somewhat as a spirital guide.
Many families grow up without spiritual guidance and without it
I tend to think we flounder.
I respect the fact that not everyone believes in God or any religious figure
and the 12 steps allows you to fill in the blank with your own HP.
I just look at it as a step by step approach at being a healthier person.
Given the fact that there are so many unhealthy people floating around
it's just another form of guidance for those that choose it to be.
What I meant was they can serve as somewhat as a spirital guide.
Many families grow up without spiritual guidance and without it
I tend to think we flounder.
I respect the fact that not everyone believes in God or any religious figure
and the 12 steps allows you to fill in the blank with your own HP.
I just look at it as a step by step approach at being a healthier person.
Given the fact that there are so many unhealthy people floating around
it's just another form of guidance for those that choose it to be.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 3,054
I think some of it may be culturally different in the UK too. I get the impression the the USA is more structured than the UK - like we don't tend to fly flags much and go most years without ever singing the national anthem!! If we had a national pledge there'd probably be an uproar if anyone was ever 'expected' to say it!
I do think that has something to do with it - we're a disorganised bunch over here and don't often do what we're told!
I do think that has something to do with it - we're a disorganised bunch over here and don't often do what we're told!
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,333
LOL I never thought of us being organized, interesting what others think...
I have to admit though at all sporting events we do the anthem, even NASCAR!!!
I just think instead of the bible being a guide as some families do/or in addition to
the 12 steps could provide some of the background for ones self worth.
I don't know I'm fighting the flu and my thinking is kind of random today
I have to admit though at all sporting events we do the anthem, even NASCAR!!!
I just think instead of the bible being a guide as some families do/or in addition to
the 12 steps could provide some of the background for ones self worth.
I don't know I'm fighting the flu and my thinking is kind of random today
Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 3,054
Any other brits feel free to correct me but I figure in the UK if someone was doing 12 steps then that would be ok because that's what they wanted. But if you took prejudice against 'alcohol' aside (ie presume that the listener hasn't already decided because someone said they were an alcoholic) then I think the general way would be to listen to what they were saying rather than think they should be doing this or that.
I know from experience the UK alcohol drinkline is very open to alternatives and talks uch more about choices rather than a single course of action. When I rang them they put the most store in what I wanted as being important rather than being prescriptive - sort of supporting you with information to find your answers. I've no reason to think they're any different with the drinker - certainly they were suggesting to me that D's choices were what mattered, for example to make sure he knew he could get help with moderation if that's what he chose and telling me that's often a good step towards a decision to quit (which is exactly what happened).
I find it almost impossible to imagine meeting another non drinking alcoholic and only looking to see if they 12 step, of course I'd be interested but more so in what they felt about what they were doing.
I know from experience the UK alcohol drinkline is very open to alternatives and talks uch more about choices rather than a single course of action. When I rang them they put the most store in what I wanted as being important rather than being prescriptive - sort of supporting you with information to find your answers. I've no reason to think they're any different with the drinker - certainly they were suggesting to me that D's choices were what mattered, for example to make sure he knew he could get help with moderation if that's what he chose and telling me that's often a good step towards a decision to quit (which is exactly what happened).
I find it almost impossible to imagine meeting another non drinking alcoholic and only looking to see if they 12 step, of course I'd be interested but more so in what they felt about what they were doing.
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: England
Posts: 3,410
I think the biggest cultural obstacle to introducing 12 Steps into schools is the Higher Power thing. I don't want to get into a spiritual/religious debate, but we have tend to leave spirituality and/or religion very much to the individual and it is my experience that the UK is pretty secular at state level.
That said, there are key themes that are picked up in lots of "recovery" type literature and practice that I think would be great to introduce into schools. I find it very sad that so many people grow into adults with cripplingly low levels of self-esteem and would be interested to know how that could be helped through the school system in a way that isn't being addressed now.
And yes, our health-care system is very much about patient-choice, providing there is choice - which as Eq knows, isn't always the case.
That said, there are key themes that are picked up in lots of "recovery" type literature and practice that I think would be great to introduce into schools. I find it very sad that so many people grow into adults with cripplingly low levels of self-esteem and would be interested to know how that could be helped through the school system in a way that isn't being addressed now.
And yes, our health-care system is very much about patient-choice, providing there is choice - which as Eq knows, isn't always the case.
*
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Lincolnshire, England
Posts: 464
I don't know enough about the 12 steps to give an opinion on them being useful in everyday life.
I do think us Brits in general are big on personal choices and protecting our own space.
There are about 300 people at my place of work; I know them quite well as I've worked with them before for about 16 years, I'm pretty sure less than 5 per cent have ever opened a bible except during R. E. at school. And I'm more than pretty sure that if I sent around a poll asking "What are the 12 steps?" that the answers would be "Don't know" for 98 per cent of them.
Anyway; yes Equus I agree we are a disorganised bunch and Yes we don't like being told whats best for us, we're stubborn and we like to find things out for our selves.
There's a streak running through most Brits that says " You live your way; I'll live mine" but woe betide anyone or anything that comes against us as a whole!
I think that this may constitute a hijack; Sorry! I'll go hide now.
I do think us Brits in general are big on personal choices and protecting our own space.
There are about 300 people at my place of work; I know them quite well as I've worked with them before for about 16 years, I'm pretty sure less than 5 per cent have ever opened a bible except during R. E. at school. And I'm more than pretty sure that if I sent around a poll asking "What are the 12 steps?" that the answers would be "Don't know" for 98 per cent of them.
Anyway; yes Equus I agree we are a disorganised bunch and Yes we don't like being told whats best for us, we're stubborn and we like to find things out for our selves.
There's a streak running through most Brits that says " You live your way; I'll live mine" but woe betide anyone or anything that comes against us as a whole!
I think that this may constitute a hijack; Sorry! I'll go hide now.
Paused
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Washington
Posts: 5,093
I think the 12 steps should be a way of life. Who would teach them? Hmmm...good point. I wouldn't rely on the schools to teach them. Teaching them at home from early development would be ideal. However, pmaslan is correct, families are so dysfunctional. That is why we have so many problems and pent up emotions in individuals today. The exact reason why alcoholics drink. However, we know that alcoholics aren't the only ones with unhealthy pent up emotions.
I'm glad the 12 steps were offered to me as an elective. I chose them as a choice to get healthy and free from my addiction. Maybe it would be a great alternative type emotional health, spiritual health, physical health, work shop. I suppose money would be involved where AA provides it for free.
Maybe mandatory classes? You can't get your driver's license, get married, or buy a new home without taking a 12 step class. I'm only joking of course, I know that would never fly, but sure might be helpful. I'll keep thinking and working on this.
I'm glad the 12 steps were offered to me as an elective. I chose them as a choice to get healthy and free from my addiction. Maybe it would be a great alternative type emotional health, spiritual health, physical health, work shop. I suppose money would be involved where AA provides it for free.
Maybe mandatory classes? You can't get your driver's license, get married, or buy a new home without taking a 12 step class. I'm only joking of course, I know that would never fly, but sure might be helpful. I'll keep thinking and working on this.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Casper Wyoming
Posts: 8
I know from personal experience I swore I would never date another addict whether they were in recovery or not. When I met my current husband the chemistry between us was impossible to deny that we are mean't to be together until death do us part. He has been a recovering meth addict for the past 5 years. When we met he was up front with me and told me he had been in prison, lost everything he had built for his family because he loved his meth more than life it self. He is now in recovery and will be there everyday. So judging ones past is wrong..It is how they currently live their lives is what is most important as they are able to share a good life with out drugs and alcohol as the focus.
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: over yonder
Posts: 1,548
My soap box got triggered by someone saying everyone needs the 12 steps, sorry i am OT.
The 12 steps are always suggestive only, the neat part is we hear others say what they did to get sober, also they cover resentments, anger, our faults, our expectations, We are never to attack anyones beliefs. they grow or not, they learn what they want or need to learn or go back out.
AA is for those that want it, not need it.
By listening to how others worked their program, hear how they change, we learn much more faster than having anyone or everyone saying. 'You can just quit. It isn't good for you, your hurting people, we get defensive when accused and told shoulds and aughts ,then we do not really hear, except the things we want to defend and make excuses for. Last I knew we had Athiests and Agnostics in AA.
I felt strongly it works well for men as they see tough old boys talking feelings, talking learning to live life on life's terms. learning about the SO's feelings etc.
Its like us, on here, getting it out, getting idea's, we never told the people we thought were normal, they would not think well of us, so we hurt, many of them hurt, men also hurt, as many keep it all in thinking they are the only one' s with these problems,
faults, fears etc. Each group has their faults etc. Practice, practice is a big help.
The child wanting to be a pianonist(sp?) practices every chance he gets. So the members by attending keep practiceing, and get new ideas.
SHUCKS , I highjacked a thread didn't I???
equus I can't help but think you would love AA, I too have trouble with HP etc.
We get our head bloodied sometimes, and everyone thinks we are wrong or nuts sometimes, but it is family, we iron it out. No one has to say they are alcoholic.
That is just part of the honesty. (kinda like the bank telling me I am overdrawn and I say no, can't be. If I don't say honestly ya I guess I am overdrawn, then I may do nothing, get charges, etc, finally account closed, but I was not overdrawn., because I am not like those people that overdraw)
Sorry everyone, this is my soap box.
pmaslan... lets start something, know any school counselors to bounce it off of??
The 12 steps are always suggestive only, the neat part is we hear others say what they did to get sober, also they cover resentments, anger, our faults, our expectations, We are never to attack anyones beliefs. they grow or not, they learn what they want or need to learn or go back out.
AA is for those that want it, not need it.
By listening to how others worked their program, hear how they change, we learn much more faster than having anyone or everyone saying. 'You can just quit. It isn't good for you, your hurting people, we get defensive when accused and told shoulds and aughts ,then we do not really hear, except the things we want to defend and make excuses for. Last I knew we had Athiests and Agnostics in AA.
I felt strongly it works well for men as they see tough old boys talking feelings, talking learning to live life on life's terms. learning about the SO's feelings etc.
Its like us, on here, getting it out, getting idea's, we never told the people we thought were normal, they would not think well of us, so we hurt, many of them hurt, men also hurt, as many keep it all in thinking they are the only one' s with these problems,
faults, fears etc. Each group has their faults etc. Practice, practice is a big help.
The child wanting to be a pianonist(sp?) practices every chance he gets. So the members by attending keep practiceing, and get new ideas.
SHUCKS , I highjacked a thread didn't I???
equus I can't help but think you would love AA, I too have trouble with HP etc.
We get our head bloodied sometimes, and everyone thinks we are wrong or nuts sometimes, but it is family, we iron it out. No one has to say they are alcoholic.
That is just part of the honesty. (kinda like the bank telling me I am overdrawn and I say no, can't be. If I don't say honestly ya I guess I am overdrawn, then I may do nothing, get charges, etc, finally account closed, but I was not overdrawn., because I am not like those people that overdraw)
Sorry everyone, this is my soap box.
pmaslan... lets start something, know any school counselors to bounce it off of??
Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 3,054
There's more than the HP thing that makes me think 12 steps aren't for me but I like that they are there for some.
I wouldn't want to see them taught in schools but that's because I think it should be a choice therefore school would be the wrong place. In the UK there is a new class I think it's called Personal Development but I'm not sure - it covers lots of stuff from community spirit to emotions etc, I'd love to sit in on a class!!
Slightly more back on track there's more than just how someone gets over any problem in life, there's what they learn from it. I'm not going to be choosing another partner unless something awful happens but I know I tend to choose friends that have had things to get over in life. There's a reason for that and it sure as hell is sympathy - I just find having overcome stuff people are left less 'green'. The friends I have are resourceful, determined and open minded (not easily convinced though!!), that's got lots to do with their life experience.
What might be damaged goods to one person is like a valued antique to me, I don't want them any different, I don't want them to have to be as they were before.
I chose my husband because he was already my friend - I continue to choose my friends for their character and heart, I find both mature through difficulties when a person wants to grow rather than be defeated.
I wouldn't want to see them taught in schools but that's because I think it should be a choice therefore school would be the wrong place. In the UK there is a new class I think it's called Personal Development but I'm not sure - it covers lots of stuff from community spirit to emotions etc, I'd love to sit in on a class!!
Slightly more back on track there's more than just how someone gets over any problem in life, there's what they learn from it. I'm not going to be choosing another partner unless something awful happens but I know I tend to choose friends that have had things to get over in life. There's a reason for that and it sure as hell is sympathy - I just find having overcome stuff people are left less 'green'. The friends I have are resourceful, determined and open minded (not easily convinced though!!), that's got lots to do with their life experience.
What might be damaged goods to one person is like a valued antique to me, I don't want them any different, I don't want them to have to be as they were before.
I chose my husband because he was already my friend - I continue to choose my friends for their character and heart, I find both mature through difficulties when a person wants to grow rather than be defeated.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: anomaly
Posts: 2,180
I figure a person with sometype of a living program is better than one
without , or had at least seen the light.
I'm also a recovery alki/addict.
The down side is.... if she relapsed..it sucks.lol
But it's still better than being totally wet behaind the ears.lol
It's true peaple act different in different enviorment or culture.
Here in southern CA , or in the area I live.
it's fast, it's eye candi, it's what I wear
and what i drive definds who I am.
You see the keepin with the jones sydrom around every conner.
What community ??? what culture ??? what values ???
Not a big city but growning, fast, fast
But not a friendly small home town feel either.
You don't even know who your niehgbors are.
When I was growning here...at least all the kids
the lived in the neighborhood would get together
and have a game of street/touch football.
You don't see that becuase somehow...that would degrade
the nieghborhood.
What life style did you thought I was referring to ???
Did you actaully thought my Gf looked like a bag lady ??
Or what she was doing and how she was living look just like the norm??
Did you actually thought I looked like a wine no in my disease,
or i had a great job and was very productive ???...functioning alki.
Recovery was/is going against the grain.
There's a lot of dyfunctional functionals around me.
You can feel it, smell it...it's in the air.
The living deads, unaware, blinde.
Mmmmm or perhaspe some might be future members.lol
Yes there are peaple here that's not like that. Not in the
crazy rat race...but it is an execption to the norm.
That's why I like coming on here.....I get a different perspective.
Just to remind me ....there a whole world out thar.lol
without , or had at least seen the light.
I'm also a recovery alki/addict.
The down side is.... if she relapsed..it sucks.lol
But it's still better than being totally wet behaind the ears.lol
It's true peaple act different in different enviorment or culture.
Here in southern CA , or in the area I live.
it's fast, it's eye candi, it's what I wear
and what i drive definds who I am.
You see the keepin with the jones sydrom around every conner.
What community ??? what culture ??? what values ???
Not a big city but growning, fast, fast
But not a friendly small home town feel either.
You don't even know who your niehgbors are.
When I was growning here...at least all the kids
the lived in the neighborhood would get together
and have a game of street/touch football.
You don't see that becuase somehow...that would degrade
the nieghborhood.
What life style did you thought I was referring to ???
Did you actaully thought my Gf looked like a bag lady ??
Or what she was doing and how she was living look just like the norm??
Did you actually thought I looked like a wine no in my disease,
or i had a great job and was very productive ???...functioning alki.
Recovery was/is going against the grain.
There's a lot of dyfunctional functionals around me.
You can feel it, smell it...it's in the air.
The living deads, unaware, blinde.
Mmmmm or perhaspe some might be future members.lol
Yes there are peaple here that's not like that. Not in the
crazy rat race...but it is an execption to the norm.
That's why I like coming on here.....I get a different perspective.
Just to remind me ....there a whole world out thar.lol
Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 3,054
Here in southern CA , or in the area I live.
it's fast, it's eye candi, it's what I wear
and what i drive definds who I am.
You see the keepin with the jones sydrom around every conner.
What community ??? what culture ??? what values ???
it's fast, it's eye candi, it's what I wear
and what i drive definds who I am.
You see the keepin with the jones sydrom around every conner.
What community ??? what culture ??? what values ???
Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 3,054
That's probably why I stay so near to where I grew up. I lived in the inner city then in the countryside when I worked there - I shrivel up in suburbia!!
I went to London once for a conference. I walked round a bit to look at the shops and decided I didn't like it and have never been back since. I'm not saying everyone should be the same - just there's no way I could thrive without saying good morning to neighbours in the morning, asking after families, keeping a parcel for a neighbour, taking my friends dogs, having my carpet laid by another friend's Mum. When we go to D's village it's the same, it takes forever to get to the shops and back 'cos everyone says hello (but he's says lots aren't as genuine as here).
I went to London once for a conference. I walked round a bit to look at the shops and decided I didn't like it and have never been back since. I'm not saying everyone should be the same - just there's no way I could thrive without saying good morning to neighbours in the morning, asking after families, keeping a parcel for a neighbour, taking my friends dogs, having my carpet laid by another friend's Mum. When we go to D's village it's the same, it takes forever to get to the shops and back 'cos everyone says hello (but he's says lots aren't as genuine as here).
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
