equus

I believe society does as it's individuals do - I don't think it's a constant in which we all must live, I believe it's shaped by us, our attitudes, our beliefs, our words and our actions.

People who are addicted to any substance are part of our society, they are effected by it and effect it, they grew up in it too, they were children within it and some will become elders within it.

If we don't value human life, or if we make the value given to life conditional it becomes worth less to us - as society. If life is worth less then's there's less reason to care for it, less reason to protect it, less reason to even believe in the potential of our own lives.

If we take a section of humanity and exclude them from equal worth we devalue all humanity - history repeatedly bears witness to that and the results it leads to. Despite the horrific results dehumanising people has had it appears to repeat over and over again in history. WHY? I think it's because we don't understand the power of justification, I think we all stare in shock at crimes to people without listening carefully. If we listened we would hear something over and over - justification, people committing the crimes mostly see them as justified, or at least did at the time.

The more life is valued then taking life equally becomes harder to justify. The harder taking life is to justify the more life becomes valued.

If someone addicted believes life is worth less, then so will be their own (to them), so will be those potentially harmed by their actions, and in the case of actions that risks the LIFE of another - that too becomes easier to justify if life is worth less.

What matters is to live in a way that values human life equally, make it harder to justify risking it, take away things that make a life worth less and stop teaching ourselves and each other that ANYTHING makes a life worth less. If INDIVIDUALS cease to justify devaluing life eventually so will society. If INDIVIDUALS continue to find justification for a life being worth less so will society.

People that are addicted (which happens to include me to cigarettes!) are of equal worth, not all drink drive, not all harm everyone around them but we ALL have a life - a precious life and the potential to use that life well.

The answer will never be to devalue the life of another and as long as we justify doing so we take part in building a society that does likewise and that will never be one that reduces crimes or increases our protection of each other.

We're part of it, part of it's problems, part of the solutions and changes - it isn't something 'out there' disconnected from our beliefs, attitudes, words and actions.

escape artist

i really don't think "society" has devalued the alcoholic as much as the "alcoholic" has devalued himself-and in turn has devalued society. kind of like a mirror image of what a person puts out there in life is what that person gets back.

bahookie

I agree, escape, I think you've hit the nail on the head
J
xxx

Gabe

I like the way you took the word "worthless" and broke it into two words "worth less".
That makes it very clear just what that word means.
I think feelings of worthlessness have invaded just about everyone working a recovery program at some point.
Many of us have low self-esteem issues.
I think recovery begins to work for us when we believe that we are "worth more" not "worth less".

equus

I'm talking abbout the part we as individuals play in society - I'm talking about the effect of me and you thinking an alcoholics life is worth less.

If we suggest the worth of life is conditional on our judgement of behaviour we play a part in what happens as a result. In domestic violence the purportrator will often believe it was the victim's fault, that their behaviour justified the violence dealt out to the. Child abuse follows the same pattern - spare the rod and spoil the child, valuing a life becomes dependent on how it's lived, or more importantly how WE perceive it's lived.

There are those who hate women and can wax lyrical on how that hatred is based on what women do. There are those who hate because of race and yet there's still that same ol' justification popping up - how far would Hitler have got if he hadn't labelled the Jews greedy?

If I say - 'Listen to me because I know why this or that life is worth less' inherent in that is saying it's possible to judge and right to.

What I'm saying is the worth of a life is non-conditional - AND I'm saying society will be what we as individuals are.

goffredo

I agree with equus.

In my experience, I never thought my gf was worth less or that I was better than her. I always saw the pain behind her addiction.

I have to admit though, that I felt so much anger and hatred towards her using buddies, I often called them losers and the thought of them gives me shivers. What do I think of her "friends dealers" (she used to believe in her denial that they were friends)? Do I think they are worth less? I don't know. I have no compassion for them and I cannot think of them being valuable to society, to life itself in any way.

I don't think her buddies are worth less and i know that the anger I have is because I fear that my gf will get back in touch with them, which for me is a relapse. i also know that I am uncomfortalbe with them because of what they represent for me: all my gf's insanity and unhealthy life.

Sorry I'm going off the tracks. I'm working on acceptance, on removing negative and hateful thoughts from my head and I guess no life is worth less than another, as at the end of the day, we are all human beings

Love Jo

equus

When I think about people who've I HAVE felt like this about, I think about what's inside them that lets them do as they do. For the people that statement brought to mind for me what seems to be lacking is their compassion and their realisation of how much people are worth. That brings me to a point of decision - will I follow their example in how I think of them or will I challenge it?

Bearing in mind I work with abused kids I decided that in NO WAY did I want to follow their example - which left me with challenging it!!

I bring to mind a person who I know I'm starting to feel is worth less, I ask myself if I could have harmed them as a child and the answer is no - yet they are the same human. I ask myself if I TRULY could stand by and see them tortured and the answer is no. I might be so angry that I cannot see my compassion or sense it but if I choose to I can go hunting for it and it's there. THAT is what helps me NOT follow their example.

If I look at the behaviour in the same light what I think doesn't change - if a child did that, or an old man or woman - I'd feel exactly the same way about the behaviour. If I believe the root of the behaviour is lack of human worth, and lack of compassion; if I feel so strongly about that behaviour - how should I act and think?

The scariest thing is to spend life becoming a little more alike those people who frighten me with how they behave, so naturally I try to not do or think like them.

GettingBy

This is all of it in a nutshell. Treat others as we would like to be treated. Don't we all want respect and compassion? Well we receive what we give out. If we want more compassion and love in our lives, let it begin with us.

Hell, if you aren't comfortable being compassionate to your spouse, why not first try helping out a stranger? Offer to carry an elderly ladies groceries to her car, or hold a door for someone with their hands full... see how good it makes you feel.

The next time you feel like screaming at the slow driver in front of you... think about the fact that maybe that's someone's grandparent, or daughter... and is nervous about being on the road. Maybe instead of honking the horn, or tailgating... give them some space and let them feel comfortable. They have enough anxiety, they don't need some a-hole making their day that much worse.

I say all of this out of experience. I used to be that selfish a-hole. I was rude, and self-centered, and thought the world revolved around me. I thought the world was always "out to get me" because bad stuff seemed to always happen to me. The reality was... I was giving out bad, so I got bad back. My attitude sucked. When I started doling out love and compassion, I was shocked to see how quickly it came right back. The world didn't seem so bleak and ugly anymore... and nothing had changed except my attitude.

bahookie

? Really?

I'd expect those with a degree of emotional maturity,and a firmer grasp of morality, to behave better.
I think that may be why children are treated differently than adults after a transgression.

equus

You’re talking about people – I’m talking about the behaviour. Of course I would think differently about a child doing something, but the behaviour that happens when compassion disappears is no less damaging when it’s a child doing it. Bullying in schools is an excellent example.

bahookie

Unless the compassion hasn't disappeared or lessened, to say it has assumes we all have it in the first place.

I know my children have had to learn compassion, and it's usually through encountering something new.

I think to judge all bad acts equally is to ignore the mitigating circumstances
J

equus

Again I would argue that there’s confusion between the person and the behaviour. I think children do have compassion but what they learn is how to show it – how to act in a way that is recognisable as compassion.

I am the same person if I had been killed as a child I wouldn’t be here now, if I’m killed now I won’t be here as an elderly lady. Yet my behaviour isn’t the same, my behaviour changes and has potential to change – if a behaviour stopped in childhood then I continue, if I stop in childhood, it may stop the behaviour but it also destroys all the potential and THAT is human worth.

If I was to judge a person by their behaviour despite mitigating circumstances that WOULD be wrong. I’m not suggesting that, what I’m saying is that when a child shows cruelty it’s the cruelty that needs to be untolerated NOT the child.

That’s why human worth is non conditional – that worth doesn’t disappear.

denny57

I think it all comes down, then, to how we view the disease of alcoholism. I agree with equus on this. I don't think or feel my AH has devalued himself or society. He has a disease and suffers just as I do. I know some people see what the alcoholic does as against THEM, but I just don't see it that way.

Sophia57

I have to agree with Jane - people (who perform the behaviour in the first place) aren't necessarily born with compassion.
We could get into a pointless nature/nurture discussion over that but IMHO people learn to be compassionate with others through example and education. Some people never learn compassion or empathy or may lose it through their own bad life experiences.
Mitigating circumstances must play a role when we examine a bad act - if a child is abused and goes on to abuse, do we consider their life experience with compassion when judging them?
Just my two cents, but I think so.
Sophia

equus

ABSOLUTELY!!! Who can say a person is worth less? But the abuse remains wrong.

I believe we have compassion in us from the start BUT I also believe we can learn to have both more of it and how to better demonstrate it. It's because of that potential in us as humans to improve our behaviour that I believe we do have an equal worth.

bahookie

Hm
I know for a fact that I have encountered some people in my life who cared neither for their own potential nor anyone else's, and who make their choices with no thought for anything but their own gain or comfort.

Of course each life has equal worth, for goodness sake, who's said it doesn't?

Really, there's very little comfort, or use, for me thinking about the potential of someone causing me real pain, and that's what lots of people here are going through.

equus

Now I can't judge that much about another person. I've no means to know whether they have ever helped a person or ever will. But I would like to ask what you think their worth IS if you believe that?

I haven't accused anyone, I've pointed out the worth we give life matters, and the more we give it the better we live as a society.

In this we are opposite then. It gioves me great comfort to know that D's worth and potential isn't dependeant on me or what I think or do. If he was to say he didn't care whether he lived or died as long as he could be drunk, I would do now what I did when he said that 10 years ago - withdraw and offer no more than friendship. I'd be able to do that knowing it didn't devalue him or remove his potential.

When I started to see it was a person's behaviour that hurt instead of judging the whole of them the way I acted also changed. Instaed of calling someone a selfish **** I could easily explain why what they had done upset me. This has been alot more productive for me!!! I can explain easily why a behaviour is so destructive without reducing a person's self esteem to mush! I could explain to D how much he was worth to all those who loved him and that was why self destructive behaviour was so painful to them.

It also means my worth and potential stay constant and that's one hell of a motivator to protect myself from harm and live well.

bahookie

I'd say, then that it's a tad arrogant to judge anyone, and to assume that our opinions actually matter to them. Or should.

In the case of someone hurting me, it's not their worth that concerns me but their relevance in my life. That is my choice and nothing to do with their self-esteem.

J

equus

J!!!
I'm gonna call you on that!! I know you consider self esteem, I know you think it matters and don't want to squash it - that doesn't mean you want to live with all the behaviour. Maybe it's cheeky of me to say that - but hey, we've posted here long enough to have some clue

I didn't really get what you meant here?

bahookie

It's exactly the same, in my eyes, as anyone else's.

Exactly, but why then
If it's not dependant, why even bother about the effect on another's self esteem?

They just don't agree

J