equus

Five why not start a new thread re diagnosis in what is recovery? My reply tothis would be somewhat long and have nothing to do with the difference between us diagnosing family and friends and proffessional diagnosis.

On a last note from me re labels - The word 'cancer' comes from the middle English 'canker'. In Sheakspearian times 'cankerous' was used commonly as an insulting label for a person, despite it's relation to physical ailment even in those days! The study of cancer, the labelling of it as a disease hasn't spread it's usage as an insult - it's all but stopped it as our understanding has increased.

The label cancer is now used as it should be, prevention, research, and treatment.

Sometimes it helps to hold the perspective of a few hundred years - time is not ours.

Five

I think my point is general to the "recovery community". There is an argument against what leaders and thinkers of the recovery community think that we, as sufferers, are. Many of whom are zealots and have a vested interest in forcing their discriptions and beliefs on others, in the name of recovery. The link I posted goes into in far more detail than I have the time for. I do not want to say medical diagnosis are a bad thing, I just know that I have to watch what I call myself and others. Calling alcoholics selfish sociopaths for example.

equus

No just human!

Like me and you - we could all do with remembering that it's behaviour, disease, illness and problems that should be labelled - not people.

I don't believe orange have really learned that - yet.

denny57

This is not always true. Sometimes the greatest challenge we face is living with someone who treats everyone with respect BUT the person closest to them. Many abusers act this way.

equus

But when that is the case we don't need a label to know we are treated badly - my initial comment was about those who smooje if you know what I mean.

Also in some ways the same still applies - for those who are treated well, they would do well to hold back trust towards someone treating those closest to them with disrespect. If I have an aquiantance who always seems to put me first despite other committments, I guess perhaps they are not a person who takes their committments seriously.

I realise often things are behind closed doors - but while inperfect it's still the best I can get as I haven't found any other means.

denny57

I do know what you mean. All I can say in my case was that I DID need that label to know I was being treated badly. It was eye-opening for me to learn that everything my AH was doing was not necessarily related to his A. It's an interesting thread.

minnie

I had to walk away from this thread for a good few hours because something in it irritated an anger-filled sore in me that was in danger of exploding in entirely the wrong direction. And I'm glad, because I didn't even know it was there.

I totally appreciate what you say about labels, Equus, and for the most part I wholeheartedly agree. I have a question for you, though. How do I explain my experience to friends/acquaintances I haven't seen for a few years, without spending hours describing the behaviours? By your logic, it would be incorrect of me to even refer to him as an alcoholic, given that he has not been diagnosed with anything alcohol-related as far as I am aware. He drank a lot and lied all the time just doesn't seem to cut it. Actually, forget about the friends thing - how do I explain it to myself?

You, of all people, know that much of the behaviour that is described on these boards is not simply that of abuse of, or dependence on, alcohol. But alcoholic is the label that has been put on such behaviour. And the more I come here, the more I see how dangerous that can be.

Ach, I can't find the words. I think I'm long overdue a break from the whole fecking lot of it.

pmaslan

Minnie quote:
"Ach, I can't find the words. I think I'm long overdue a break from the whole fecking lot of it."

I too am at the point of just needing a break.
Went to a funeral Saturday. The guy died of a heart attack no doubt that huge cocaine consumption had a hand in it. I could label that , I won't.
Not to mention the incredible amount of alcohol I saw around the room, more
consumed by some than others, probably have a name/label for that too....
I don't know when describing John and why we broke up to friends and relatives....heck what's the point....

equus

You know I have reservations about labelling - even where alcoholism is concerned. BUT to be able to say someone's drinking is effecting me - or any other behaviour is 100% reasonable, so is saying it isn't acceptable.

I'm not critical of why a person including me or you might believe there is an underlying problem, likely diagnosis, etc; my points are about how functional or accurate that can be. My concern isn't about a private thought or even one that's shared, it's when that grows to a suggestion generalised beyond a single individual known well to a whole group.

Of course things cross my mind - but I have to know there's a very real difference between what I can offer, what I can define, and what is being talked about when psych disorders are discussed.

From a more personal viewpoint - from a VERY personal viewpoint, I do understand the frustration. What happened to D over summer? He had a variety of half cocked diagnosis from a GP who readily admitted he was out his depth, one appointment with a CPN and nothing else, NO other diagnosis apart from being again diagnosed as addicted to alcohol (by the GP as alcoholic by APAS as 'Dependency Disorder'!). How do I explain that to myself? Well as at times he was wearing his clothes inside out sober, wouldn't drive, rarely left the house etc - I know there was something very wrong and THAT was what I needed to know. I have said since that I THINK he had a breakdown and we just got left to deal with it, but hell, I don't KNOW if that's the case. I have said that the last times he drank I think were a cry for help rather than a desire to drink again - that was based on what happened after each time - he sought help rather than drank again! Most of my interpretations have been very simple despite frustration to have something easier to say.

I agree with this wholeheartedly!! Even to the point where I think sometimes D gets classed as somehow not truly alcoholic (hey - you should have seen him drink!!). He fits all the criteria asked for by DSM but not the 'incapable of love' 'totally selfish' etc add ons repeated here over and over. How did they get to be part of 'disease'? And when finally that stretches the power of reason is the answer to find a new label?

In understanding people I'm stuck with that mostly we are more alike than different, we want to avoid pain and be happy. In understanding behaviour I take them one at a time - I can mostly understand a lie, a selfish act, and lack of feeling - I've been guilty of all of them!

When it comes to judging who I want in my life or using explaination to ease hurt the nearest I can get is my mother. What I've learned there is that her way of life is very painful, she's very unhappy - I mustn't follow her and I see bitterness and resentment play abig part in her path so when I think of her I do my best to avoid those. I don't need a label - despite years of PAST hurt the most helpful thing to my peace of mind is knowing she is human, that she has the potential for compassion and has shown it, she also fails sometimes.

If I was to call my mother a sociopath it would be to seperate her behaviour from my own and other people's where as what I need is to understand she is a part of the world, I have been capable of similar things and other people will be too. By knowing that I walk with my own eyes open to where I'm going - I will not go down the path where hurting people is reasonable and fair so I can only walk with people going my direction - that includes D.

Minnie - you are not doing anything I think is awful, nothing I haven't done myself and in the past been burned by.

Five

Great post Eq. According to some my mother is codependant, neurotic, selfish, prideful.

And I say, so what?

I love here anyway, and she is happy in her ways, she has things in her life that make her happy. Despite her seriours flaws I think she will be at peace on her death bed, knowing she has lived a decent life.

However, I am aware that when people get hurt we scramble for understanding - and I know labels are good in that respect.

O I dunno.

paula a.

I should have posted that question when I was going to be around to participate in the conversation. It looks like I missed out on an interesting exchange of thoughts!

This is what I was wondering about--are some people being "half-treated" because they are labeled as alcoholics? I think I am pretty naieve about some things. When I googled sociopath and alcoholics I came across quite a few sites that don't subscribe to the AA twelve step way of thinking. It just never occured to me to think otherwise...