equus

I gave up a long time ago trying to figure it out. In one setting he can show me a level of empathy I can't comprehend - how he iswith my brother is incredible. Other times he seems very vulnerable - like having had his new workmates only two months but he gives them so many gifts. If they like an author he'll load his bags with books, if they have a PS he takes in what amounts to £100 or so worth of his games. I think one reason I would be terrified of D in rehab is that once he likes someone he'd trust them far too much straight away. I've seen beggers take money out his hand and I've been the one to take it back. D also signs up to every charity he gets asked to.

There's something not right in how he weighs people up but he has no lacking in feeling for them, no lack of social ability (just confidence) and no lack of highly articulate language or imagination.

I've chalked him up as a one off!!

Pick-a-name

Minnie: Yes; I understand what you are saying about different conditions, but funny thing is, this sister saw everything differently. Brother 1 yr younger (who is 1yr older than the one I am talking about;she's 3 yrs my jr.) sister 7 yrs younger and brother almost 11yrs younger all have exact similar memories. Just this one is different.....but of course, it is HER PERCEPTION that was the difference, I think....even as a child. And she saw and heard everything through that. (Long before her first drink.)

Yes, even identical twins ARE very different; my dad is one and I worked with/for both him and his identical twin brother. Their upbringing was mainly the same, although subtle differences because of temperament but we each bring our own personalities to the mix...even before birth my children were different.

Interesting stuff!

(Guess I get tired of sister's blame [when she got away with more than the rest of us combined] irkes me sometime. My dad's xyz or our mother's death [she says how it was hardest on her;she didn't even help us because she was too busy having an affair with a married man at her office, it turns out] MADE her have stress and drink......but she isn't "really" an alcoholic..at least not a "bad" one and certainly not like some of us who smoked cigarettes,etc in college. haha That's my problem, if I care about her talk....but some people believe it, as we all know. I just hate to help alcoholics place blame so they realize the need to address the disease.) Thanks again for the post.

minnie

Ah! The blame thing. You know, I have eliminated that word from my vocabulary. Never does anyone any good.

Got away with stuff? In my book, one of the most damaging things for kids is the lack of boundaries. Not only do boundaries teach right from wrong etc, but I also think they generate a deep sense of security. Letting a kid get away with stuff actually teaches them that you don't care.

DesertEyes

In the whole genetics vs. environment question there's one _big_ detail left out, which explains why identical twins don't grow up identical. It's called "perception". Us humans are _thinking_ creatures. We are capable of perceiving the world around us as suits our own thinking. We are _not_ machines that respond exclusively to our genes and environment. As long as the theoreticians forget to consider the individual "free will" then genetics vs. environment will continue to spin in circles and get nowhere.

Mike :-)
p.s. Not my original thought, that's Jung and James in summary form ;-)

minnie

Thanks for this, Laurie. This quote sums up the part of addiction that truly fascinates me and makes me want to learn more. I have heard this time and time again from recovering alcoholics and I just know that there is something in there that is not being addressed by the medical profession.

Where does this "not fitting in" come from?

Pick-a-name

No lack of boundaries growing up..had them and were encouraged to keep our own.
Just the rest of us kids did let her get away with the stuff that didn't really matter...not worth the effort arguing,between us. No, she towed the line like the rest of us. I mean she wanted to watcha tv show (one set) and I didn't, I would do something else rather than barter set-time, junk like that.

Guess it was the blame thing....always. I see now my folks didn't really buy into it, but I guess I was always worried they might..haha.

Funny, my sibs and I have talked about this subject; esp. recently. At family sessions at her IOP the counselors (well one in particular) and her therapist of course believe this crap and she is operating as if it is 100% true....but it is not. We are called hostile and in denial because she said we were controlled and never learned boundaries,etc.......false.

Truthfully, the only difference in this sister is her concept and relationship to HP (that is changing and so is her life out-look) She tell half of us she is prefect in her behavior, has never done anything wrong,etc () on the other hand she didn't think she was "good enough". THAT may br the crux of it all....trying to be perfect,to look perfect,etc and knowing you are not and can never be. (for any of us...step 1; believing it and then ACTING on it.......that is the critical part;faith.) JMO

Jazzman

My guess would be low self esteem, poor self image. No matter what the underlying cause whether it be environmental or perception. I can certainly understand how feelings of inferiority can manifest itself in the desire to self medicate.

I wanted to add an interesting observation, having known my ex's family since childhood. She's one of seven children. One child can get lost in the noise level of such a large family. I can easily see where one can get off track, between the desire to love and be loved, and the esteem step, need for reputation, prestige and recognition from others, (from the 1st post). Self medicating will provide the medicator the illusion of self esteem, prestige and recognition from others. But w/out the love and feeling loved step, it falls short of the mark.

nutz

Denial,

I'm the only person from my family that attend recovery. Or you can put
a label on me. I stopped drinking when I was 22...and I'm the alki.
I'm 39. Not really sure what to label myself..Mmmm nutz sounds good.lol

My girlfriend from all account had a good put brining. She was basicailly
spoil. Loosing her father play a major role for her relapes.
She hasn't process or grieve. It been years
It's like she keeps messing up so her father might come back from the
grave to tell her she's okay. He loves her very much no matter what.
No it's not everything, but it dose murky clear water just a little.
We also lost children. Too much lost in very little time. She can't
bare the pain. I know....the gambling started soon after that.
I havn't seen her cried. She have dreams of our children often.

I was devisated, I ended up relasping after 11 years of being sober.
I went into this wierd stage of buying toys and hobbies, like trying
to live for my child. The life he never had. For some reason...grace
I stopped drinking in two weeks. The first thing or challenge was
breaking down and grieve over the lost of our children. It was painful.

I do understand...
will you know, stress is from wanting to choke the living **** out of
someone that really deserves it.lol
My girlfreind still drives my up the freanken wall.
She's still at the casino.lol

Everybody have a living problem/challenges of some sort. Emotional bagage..ect. Some handle it better than others. I tried the self medicaing methode. It's compounded interrest or problems.

It's not about blame, it's about just trying to identify the hick-ups
and retuning. Blame accomplish totally nothing. That why i go talk to
a tree sometimes. It handle it, peaple can't.lol

minnie

Yes, Jazz. I realise I probably answered my own question in my original post. I have to remember that not everyone has worked so (damned) hard on knowing what really makes them tick. Not talking about you Laurie, but I sometimes get the idea that some recovering alcoholics see this "not fitting in" thing as something they were born with, rather than something created.

Uh oh - another lightbulb comes from typing on here. Maybe we ARE born like that and it is our upbringing that fosters something dfferent. But unfortunately, some parents are unable to pass that something on. Gosh, am I supposed to be able to sleep now?

equus

The genetic research isn't just based on twins. Where it is based on twins they measure identicle versus non identical to see if the incidence is higher across LARGE number for monozygotic twins.

That's usually a first step, as genetic research on people would be highly unethical they then ususally support it heavily with animal research. That allows a high level of control and they can and do breed 'alcohol prefering' rats. The breeding will influence predictabley whether the rats become alcoholic.

Now where it gets interesting is the difference in complexity - hard wiring versus learned connections. The lower down the evolutionary scale you get the more is hard wired and less learned, but that doesn't mean we KNOW there is 'less' hardwiring higher up, it may be the same but with greater function to adapt and over rule it. This has my bet - that we have alot of hardwiring but also alot of ability to control it - IF we are aware and have been given motivation enough. I believe this because in extreme religious practice the basics of hardwiring such as desire for food, reaction to pain, cold etc appear to be overcome. In that exceptional setting an individual is taught to be aware and then taught to control what we can't without learning.

With alcohol the cultural acceptance of it perhaps removes a great deal of motivation in early stages - then the chemical itself damages the area of the brain most needed to 'OVER RULE' impulsion. At that point I believe clear differences would be seen amongst those with a genetic vulnerablity and those without.

Processes like AA, CBT, etc offer what the monk gains in order to control the hard wiring - awareness and motivation. In fact both these two elements are prevelant in ALL the recovery methods I've read about.

minnie

Hmm - I will have to come back to you on the last post, Eq. My brain has died.

I'd like to just point out that, although this thread has been centered on addiction, I actually see much of this stuff in myself. I just expressed it in a different way. Whether that was because of genetics or environment, I can't say.

nutz

Oki doki ...so back to the ego thing
Ego as i defind it, is a part of a human mind that requires stemulies.
Everybody has different levels or degree of this. Just like your finger
prints. There are deferent style, methdodes. Alki/addict are on
the extreem end of the scale.
There's simple wisdom or commonsense. You don't see a cowboy
mess'in around with a bull after he got done spiking the crap out of
it. He gets the hell out of the arena. That's control.
I assume somewhere alone the line he learned it hurts like hell to get
stump on by a bull. Great awareness and motiviation.
An addict/alki is obsess in thoughts.
Like someone said. It's their thinking of all these outrageous problems.
And thinking drives your emotions and you act or react accordingly.

Holy shmoly there's only around 84 keys on a keyboard.
The ability to make music from it is limitless. So how in the hell
are you going to put certain amount of peaple into a box and
conclued all humans are like that. There's only 5 note in a
pentatonic scale. I assure you , I don't play it like Blinmelon,
or BB king.