unstablelady

Wow...what a response, that made for some interesting reading didnt it?

Thankyou to all of you for sharing your experiences with us, in some respects I feel quite guilty in saying that I'm glad Im not the only one.

Its difficult to reply to all of you personally, so I'll try to get my message accross in one post.

Thanks to gormll for supplying the info on liver disease, I knew most of the symptoms and spoke with my doctor only last week at an appointment that my AH refused to go to with me.

Her advice to me was to make him leave and find somewhere else to live as she feels that he has to hit his bottom before he will get help and I am enabling him too much.
She also felt that it was probably too late for him but without examaning him couldnt be sure.
At first I was unable to contemplate this, as after losing my young son to cancer the thought that he could die on his own was awful and my attitude was 'well if his days are numbered I'd rather he be here'
However we talked it through and he promised he would go to the doctors today....suprise he hasnt.

I understand that this is a disease but what I cannot get my head around is that he is not prepared to even TRY to get help.
To me it's like my son refusing chemo because 'it might not work'....What makes it worse is that my brother in law who is only 40 has just been diagnosed with terminal cancer and is desperate for even a 5% chance of help that is not there.
Sorry about that little rant everyone but emotions are VERY raw and to say I'm hurting at the moment is an understatement.

Anyway, back to my reply...

Equus:
Thankyou for your last sentance thats exactly all it is,curiosity.

Sarah25 - Northern lady !!!!
We live in the Westcountry all sheep and fields, but my AH is originally from Stoke On Trent ,and yes it is still like Coronation Street up there.
On a visit recently we went into the town and he wanted to go in for a drink at 10.30am (me having coffee) I said don't be ridiculous it wont be open..we went in and couldnt get a seat, so yes it is the 'norm' for a lot of Brits to drink during the day.He tells me it goes back to when the men were working down the pits in the North, how true that is who knows?

I am going to sign off now so please dont take offence anyone that I havent replied to personally and once again thanks to you all I feel as though I have a whole new bunch of friends when you reply to me.

Sharon xx

ASpouse

USL ...... the son you lost to cancer, is this your husbands son also? You told me you had never quite learned how to deal with his death (no criticism, it's difficult I know), has your husband?

I know my husbands drinking escalated after our son died. Not making excuses for him, but perhaps like you, he hasn't dealt with his death yet either.

Pick-a-name

VERY TRUE!
True,BUT......I think this may be where the cloudiness comes in. To a certain extent, I do believe this is true. Especially if there is no behavior problem that comes with it (how, at a certain point this is even possible,seems questionable to me) but I suppose what we are talking here is isolated abuse of alcohol, that if it does cause a problem, is STOPPED; immediately and permanently.
Where it gets a little questionable to me is because an abnormal (in terms of physical health) amount, especially used frequently that is accepted as "normal" use. Or social; when used when alone. That, at a point (and shouldn't take an extended length of time) sounds a lot like denial; either on the part of the one drinking or concerned person; or both. When it is "noticable", I think indicates a problem of some kind. With most people, I pay little if any attention to: if or how much they drink. When I "notice" it is when there is a reason to...something is saying to me that "this is somehow abnormal".
In fact, physically MOST people (I think about 90% of the general population--maybe those ar US figures) are actually unable to drink the way an alcoholic can;ever. Their body metabolizes the alcohol in a way that does not allow this to happen. (see "Under the Influence" by Dr. James Milam and K. Ketcham)

I know for years I knew my AH's drinking consumption and really the importance to him was not casual; it was obsessive. He still does think/say that (and actually, hard to believe, I occassionally STILL question myself) I tried to "make" it "normal" in my mind somehow..........I can not do it. He acts like he can. So when people say, you can't "label" who is or is not alcoholic...I am now thinking that really, that is not true in many realms. I assume it comes from AA where, becasue it is an all volunteer program, they do not go "looking for recruits" and therefore let the person come to that conclusion for themself. (I believe they hold the same stance on interventions. Medical research has progressed a bit since AA began; but like I said.......their interest is helping those have already made hat determination and are seeking help (as per their "qualification for membership") . AA is not define by who shows the symptoms of the disease; just who wants to quit drinking.

Whew; sorry I got so long-winded. I just get annoyed in general when A's talk their talk about how they don't drink too much, everyone drinks that much, etc. All the QUACK. They are welcome to believe what they want, and actually probably most of the people they are comfortable drinking around at a certain point DO drink the same way they do. That is human nature. Does not mean it is not destructive or it is "normal" behavior, especially for an adult.

NOW; having said that ; I do know for me; for many reasons, how much they drink (or knowing or caring about it) is irrelevant for our purposes. If it bothers me, it is a problem FOR ME, and I am then responsible for what I choose to do about it; accept it or not in MY life. But; for me, I first had to convince myself that THIS was actually the SOURCE of the problems. I did not grow up with much drinking, I rarely do and only did a short time (abusively) in college, so I had nothing to compare AH's consumption to. HE, I find out after 30 y actually does NOT really drink much differently than his father, gf,uncle,etc so he thinks it is "normal" and they are "normal" drinkers who just have "bad luck", and "nervous breakdowns" from time to time. (Some are/were retired doctors..not skid-row bums(THEIR idea of what an alcoholic is), but alcoholic and abusive of both pills and IV drugs, but with "reasons"...)

This helps me know that it is not "just me" , "over-reacting,exaggerating" and making a big deal out of nothing; like I am often told. I know it, but denial is strong. (I expect it from AH, but I still have it,too.)

Wow! Actually these thoughts have been "caught" again lately...thanks for letting me get this out, AND all of you for posting how the A's in your life drink. It is most helpful to me; and gives me a strange peace of mind.


p.s. I also need not wonder if I should be on my ADD medication. I have been out of it for a few days, and from my rambling on here (and to you kind people who P/M me) I see my answer in an overwhelming YES! Think I better go pick them up NOW! Thanks for your kind indulgence!

ASpouse

I still don't know what the source was for my husband's drinking ..... his childhood? his mother? his father? me? him? and the list goes on and on and on.

However, what is important to me and continues to be is whatever his reasons, he doesn't drink now and is in recovery and works a program. I don't need to know the why's ...... he does ..... and believe me, IT IS VERY HARD FOR ME NOT TO KNOW, but for my sake and for his, I leave it alone. It's personal for him and I am not involved in it.

Alcoholics believe their own lies and I do agree that not many folks can handle booze the way an alcoholic does ....... or I should say the way their bodies metabolize it.

minnie

What a great thread!

I never really knew how much my ex drank and I can guarantee that what I did know wasn't even close to the true amount. And please don't kid yourselves that all of you know either. Some may, but the majority of you won't. The amount that I did know about concerned me because, it was a lot, it was at irregular hours, it was his only coping mechanism and it affected our relationship on a fundamental level. Actually, in the end, it didn't matter how much, why or when he drank - I couldn't bear to live with his behaviour.

I drink. In fact, I drink frequently. No-one has EVER expressed any concern about my drinking, I do not drink at irregular times, I do not go out of my way to have a drink, I can easily not bother, it is not my chosen coping method and, apart from the odd night on the lash, it does not cause the changes in behaviour in me that I see so frequently described on here. Does all of the above sound like an alcoholic in denial? Of course it does. Doesn't make me one, though.

So, the question is - is it simply the amount that your SO/child/parent drinks that brings you here? Or is the behaviour that goes along with it?

Pick-a-name

Remember the 3'C's!


I agree with all you said. That is the important part of OUR recovery from this crazy alcoholism! (and I am in need of constant reminding of it; for my own sake, though also most helpful for AH,too!) This kind of discussion is so helpful for me; to learn to trust what I know.

Hope your day is going well!

ASpouse

Very thought provoking minnie and I agree with every word!

pmaslan

If it weren't for the amount he drank, I don't think the behaviour would have
been affected in such an intolerable way.

minnie

I partly agree, Patty. However, if a person has insufficient emotional coping skills, then that is what they have whether they drink or not. It would simply be expressed in a different way. Like overeating, working too much, computer games. Or even, shock horror, codependency - lol!

BigSis

Let's see...

Mom drank a fifth a day of vodka last time I was counting bottles... but then 25 years after she quit, we found a 1/2 gallon, and I realized that I had stopped counting bottles several years before she quit... so I am guessing she was above a quart a day. She mixed it with beer inside a coffee cup... I guess so we wouldn't notice that she passed out at 2 or 3 in the afternoon and would only rouse herself for a round of "hit the nearest person" with a stick game in the evening.

Sister drank about a pint a day of rum - 151 proof. She was just a sipper, ya know. Of course, she was supplementing with meth for a few years. Glad I didn't know for most of that time.

I drank in bars... Thursday - Sunday, with the occassional Wednesday thrown in. I don't think I ever drank fewer than 6 drinks... generally 10 to 15. Have no idea what that amounts to in a bottle.... "I never drank alone" - I told myself that right up until the other day when I had a memory of "fortifying" myself for a first-date, and another time of "liquid courage" in order to call a man I was interested in. But those, of course, were "exceptions"... (ha!). How lucky I was that I stopped fairly early in my progression...

My dad was a beer drinker - unless he was with people, then he drank what you were drinking. Generally a half-a-rack on the week nights, gung-ho and "no limits" on the weekends.

Brother was drinking 44 oz. beers on the way home from work every night until he quit. I don't know that he quit altogether, but he was at least going through a phase of controlled drinking, and "only" drinking on the weekends. He died a few years later in an accident (no booze involved), else he might also have progressed further.

pmaslan

and there you have it.....emotional coping skills.....
mine had none, thus compensated with alcohol,
which then resulted in unacceptable behaviour...

ASpouse

Actually for the past 2 years, I haven't cared about the "why's". I had to get off that ride because it was driving me crazy. I have enough to go crazy about without that stuff LOL.

mythreesons

My husband would buy two beers for the train ride home... it was always, I only had two beers on the train. Granted they were 24 oz tall boys! And never any mention of the vodka/cranberry cocktails while waiting for the train. He drank them from big tall soda tumblers so I guess that is why they never counted.

But on too bigger and hopefully better things. He is 17 days sober and expected to be home from rehab on Monday. Which is great, cause my favorite Alanon meeting is Monday night so I won't need a sitter!

minnie

Me too, Judy. I am still curious in a detached, intellectual (and possibly professional) level, but I rarely apply what I read to my ex.

And besides, it really isn't relevant to anyone other than the individual with the drinking problem or professionals who are working with them. Knowing the "why" doesn't offer anything towards the solution for US.

Pick-a-name

Not exactly sure that I agree with this, though to my mind it is a "Catch 22".
My AH did not seem to have the problems coping (we have been together 30y) until the amount of alcohol increased; then so did the problems it created via events OR inability/refusal because he would rather drink instead, which he reacted to by trying to ignore by drinking more and round and round.

Then; physically there were a cycle of problems. Actually, the drinking first seemed to be to help him get to sleep, then eventually it disrupted his sleep in many ways BUT he could not get to sleep (etc.? I suspect) without drinking. (I remember the night he got hom from a business outing--pro ball game;I think) where he must not have wanted to drink with the company rep. present. He was home not much later than we usually went to bed. He let the dog out, locked up, usual stuff and probably had a beer or two in that time, and we went to bed. Normal night. An hour or so later, I woke up to use the bathroom, but he was gone from bed, so I assumed he was using it, and I would have to wait. I did. Finally, I got up to see if he was sick. Bathroom dark. Not in checking the kids. I went downstairs, it was pitch black. Something moved as I was about to turn on the light. He was sitting in the dark, drinking.......he could not sleep. He HAD some before bed, but not his usual. This is one example of why (at least in his case) I do not buy the psychological explanation.......though it becomes that, especially when the guilt and shame come in.

I hope I don't sound cranky, but I think it is really a very important distinction. Addiction research now shows that alcoholism causes pyschological and social problem, not the problems causing the alcoholism.

I agree, some people don't choose to look for other coping methods (that is what AA is about, I believe) and I also agree usually it becomes a major problem as "escaping" in one form or another is used instead of solving any problem. I also know that there are other biochemical disorders that some people self-medicate and end up addicted,etc. I do not argue any of this. I guess, I do not disagree at all, as long as the FIRST step before any other treatment must be the removal of the chemical that is altering the brain function in the first place, if there is going to be any other chance to improve the other things.

JMO; (hope I don't come across in a way that I do not intend.)

minnie

Fair enough. But why did he start drinking more alcohol in the first place after 30 years? I'm afraid I don't understand your example about the sleeping (or not) being proof that it is not psychological. Sorry if it seems nit-picky, but I'm just trying to understand.

I'm interested in the part about current addiction research - can you give me some pointers where to find that?

ASpouse

But don't you think that his "drinking to get to sleep" exaserbates the problem? He in essence, was self medicating himself, or is that what you are saying.

Look, people drink for all kinds of reasons, lack or or minimal coping skills is probably the main reason.

Others start out as party animals as kids, it's cool, it's fun etc. Then one day, they realize they can't "not" drink. That realization would in effect cause depression which would cause .......... whatever. Now it's a physical need, not just a psychological need.

Then of course you have the sales person ...... the one who attends company functions are part of their job ...... drinking is a big part of this job ...... it's hard to say no when the CEO insists that someone has a drink with him .... it gets to be a daily routine and suddenly, it's a physical need.

Of course there is the housewife, home with kids and a mundane life (if that is how they choose to look at it) .... same situation.

Alcoholism is an easy trap for anyone to fall into and it becomes a physical addiction way before the person even knows what's happening. I do not think that alcoholics set on this path to self destruction and self-loathing. Well, OK, maybe some, but certainly not all.

I have to say that all the recovering folks I've had the pleasure to meet, they are all super nice folks, smart, funny and genuine. Sometimes I sit and wonder what they were like when they were drinking, but they all had one thing in common ..... regardless of the reason they all admitted their lives were unmanageable because of alcohol and made a commitment to themselves to quit.

Zoey

Pick-a-name.. I agree with you. Social drinking can work on the physical body to the point of causing the craving.
At meetings, some old timer A's would say, "I drank because I was an alcoholic".
They didn't have any psychological problems. Also it is an allergy, once we really understand allergies we can then understand that it is an allergy.

Dr. gives us a tranquilizer for anxiety, works wonders, but the small print says for short term use. as they will turn and cause the anxiety that it cured in the beginning.
Same with alcohol, little stress on the job and a drink relaxes us. Ok, if we are not prone to be alcoholic.

I didn't crave a drink, did not protect my supply, but the third drink always tipped me over into addiction and I drank all night, and fast. A non A probably doesn't even finish the 2nd drink. one or two drinks last a normal person all eve, or they sip and get stale and dumped out and they get a fresh one and let that sit.

So I suspect I picked up some bad gene's, an uncle on one side was a very bad alcoholic. A uncle on other side was diabetic. Which both are an inability to handle sugar. (Sugar turns to alcohol in our system and alcohol turns to sugar in our body)

Perhaps A Spouse's A was just an alcoholic, thats why he drank and no hidden childhood drama, etc. or life problems. The alcohol causes the paranoia, the anxiety, the stress etc, Bottom line is "It is cunning, baffeling and powerful"
Drinking is the "in thing" all over, so why isn't every drinker an alcoholic???
Some have tried to join the SO and can not get high, their bodies will not allow it.
Just my thoughts.

minnie

Oh Gawd!! I've done it again! Derailed the thread onto the causes of alcoholism. I'm so sorry.

Pick-a-name

It didn't "just" happen. He started drinking before I met him (in college, we were 19yr). He had probably been drinking four or five years buy then (and other stuff..early 70's)
Physical progression of the disease. There was a time he didn't drink during the week. There was a time a six pack lasted a week. Over the course of 30 yrs it picked up slowly usually, but sometimes he would have spells where he increased or changed what he drank (ie new job and worked with another who liked to drink,too) etc. Then he would cruise along a bit and it would increase, Just the other day I remeber the "freaked" feeling I got one day in our early married years when he got a 40 oz. beer "to last for a Sunday"..I couldn't believe he was thinking of drinking ALL THAT HIMSELF IN ONE DAY! haha Not funny, but compared to how it got/has gotten is interesting that I found That excessive and now sometimes question if a 12 pk plus who knows how much or what more is "really" a problem....yes; I admit, I have become one sick puppy!
He has a very involved father, helped around the house (without being asked!) loving,generous husband,etc.etc, When he moved out he was buying 2 cases of beer every other day (for home), had booze stashed around in his car,etc, per the kids, would walk in the door, pop 3 beers and drink them down in front of the refrigerator and THEN go change his clothes (no longer checked the mail or read the newspaper.) Maybe would eat with us; always would complain about the food, us, blah, drink non-stop in front of the TV and made it very clear he did not want anyone around him or to bother him. Would not even pick up the ringing phone beside him (said it would be for on of our teenage kids, so he didn't want or need to; not for him) He would throw things, he wrestled 18y son to the ground once or twice until I said I would call the police if/when it ever happened again.

Funny thing is that is was so gradual, that it was barely noticable because it happened so slowly,it seemed "normal". Took me awhile to believe it wasn't "something else"; job stress, family sicknesses,etc. But HE was the only one drinking and all the problems seemed to eventually point back to the increase of alcohol coinsided with the incrase of problems. His (depression,anxiety,sleeping disorders,etc) and ours with arguing,fighting and lots of tension. He and I never fought during our marriage. We had a problem (there were not many) we figured out a solution; sometimes it took us a few ideas that came up with something that worked, but that is what he did. Then he would be in w/drawl when he came home, I now assume, drinking,wasted.....he never "looks " or "acts" drunk. I finally figured out he had many blackouts........that is when the really ugly stuff happened. For years he was a "heavy drinker" but no personality change........not any more.
He gets that look in his eye and becomes someone I really do not like. Even with all I just said, I still wondered ..what was making him do this? What was the real problem? We isolated from us all, and would not talk, just surface stuff. I mentioned to his doctor about his depression (he had the same doctor;I just found out he changed haha) and the doctor is the one who told me: "You know, he is an alcoholic. He needs to stop drinking and go to AA." he told me they had discussed it, and that his physial complaints (oh, yes eventually also: sleep apnea, "equipment failure"vascular headaches, high blood glucose..prob. more) were all being caused by drinking and that I should consider Alanon and possibly an intervention. That was probably seven years ago or so.

It has all gotten so much worse, and he moved out, but it is still progressing and I can see it. Behaviors, and drinking (I don't know how much, but he tried to control it by switching from beer to expensive wines..he drinks both now..because he made a big deal of telling me he didn't drink any beer for three weeks; just wine .Good for you!haha) Trouble at work, women, I don't know it all and frankly, I don't want to. He is divorcing me instead of stopping.

Really, his family and friends(that are left) are really in shock. He will have very little to do with any of us; I think he has too much shame and guilt AND we are a nuissance. He can still deal with problems at work (I think) where it is a controlled environment AND he does not drink before 5pm. That is a rule he will not break (yet) If/when it gets to that, I have no doubt that he would consider suicide.

SO.......that, what I have learned from professionals, etc finally made me have to believe that it is a progressive illness. If you have never read "Under the Influence" I encourage you to do so. I know I sound like a broken record, but in it explains biochemically, etc why this is so. I think a lot of people have not gotten the treatment that would help them because of this point. Brain chemistry is altered, so of course it does alter thinking, reactions,etc.

Thanks for letting me remind myself about all of this today. I guess I haven't thought about this much; I often don't like to but it is very important for me to remeber. Frankly, the timing was critical. My children and I have hit a crisis-point and it is important for me to remember how we got here. We discussed yesterday the crucial boundaries that we had to keep with him, and what boundaries they were setting that they will be able to keep for their peace of mind. Etc. (Young adults should not have to be ina position to have to do that, especsilly with a father who loves them, and they love and also have all this other emotional baggage with. I am proud of them but so sorry that it has happened, to/for all of us.)
Thanks Minnie; this helped me. I don't know if you could even follow any of it, and even if you did if it answered your question/s.

I do know the length and nature of the relationship we have with the person whose alcoholism got us to this place, varies greatly. I also have a sister who has been acloset drinker (lives alone) and lost her job because of alcoholism-impaired judgement (I think inappropriate behavior w/ another employee). She was sent to rehab, completed it and sent home about 18 days later, just saw a therapist relapsed a few more times then started IOP rehab./meetings/group and indiv. therapy. She has been sober since April and is doing well. Some days she still tries to go with the "stress,coping,etc" stuff as the basis........but she says she can't drink and take her medicine. I think she is starting to believe that the alcohol was more than a "crutch"; but then again, she had DT's and explained those away,too. I gently reminded her that she was getting therapy and drinking and having problems. Therapists can also be alcoholic; and they certainly know about coping skills other than alcohol. She is not drinking, working her program, meetings and therapy (IT is working better!) and she is doing so much better than I ever remeber her to be.....and she is single and still does not have a job (and used her unemployment). How her alcoholism effects me, even thought we live close to each other is soooooooooo much different than that of my husband of 27yrs (who is divorcing over this issue) and the father of my children. It is so much easier to detatch, "tough love" her, let her hit bottom, not care as much....although I love both. I didn't "watch" her illness progress or suffer from it's effects as much, although I suspected as I learned about alcoholism, that it was probably what was going on with her. The problems were there with her, but I could walk away.
My point? There are patterns and it is progressive......but it depends if you are privey to seeing it all. I am sure parents would have their stories,too. Several children, all raised the same; all different. Same basic "coping tools" at least initially, but other things are definately involved!