Dishonesty & Addiction
 

I was just digging around in the basement and found this quote by Peter.
"Selfishness spawns dishonesty.
Addicts are self absorbed people who resort to dishonesty as a survival technique.
I will lie cheat and manipulate to get what I want then I will lie cheat and manipulate some more to avoid taking responsibility for my actions."
Heavy stuff, and hard to wrap yourself around when you're on the other side of it.

Thanks for sharing Gabe....
You are right it is hard to get your head around it
when you are on the other side of it....
and thank you Peter.

It helps me to hate the disease, and not the person.

The disease is baffling. It makes no sense. An alcoholic doesn't think rationally (about consequences). Their thoughts and feelings are centered on the next drink. They either don't care about or don't acknowledge the pain and devastation their actions are causing in their loved ones. The betrayal, fear, anxiety and hurt that are caused by the alcoholic's actions are awful.

How do I live with this knowledge while maintaining a loving and respectful relationship with the alcoholic in my life? It's not easy, and that's why I need Al-anon.

Robin

I struggle with that one sometimes.
It almost takes the responsibility off of the person and puts it on the disease.
I don't know, disease or not, we are all responsible for being honest with the people we love.
Obviously, I'm still a work in progress on this topic.

I have a little problem with the theory of blaming the disease and absolving the alcoholic of responsibility.

I dont hate the person, I hate the choices, selfishness, and lack of responsibility.

I feel that if the alcoholic took as much time to face their responsibilties as they took to hide from them, the cycle would be easier to break.

If it was the disease all to blame, "recovery" would be a hoax. People would never get well and continue to go in spirals. There would be no examples of how people recover....bc afterall ,they have a disease.

Ok, Im done. Sorry Gabe, didnt mean to hijack.

Yep - they need to be honest... but my hatred can be contained to the disease, I don't see much of a connection between the two (for me).

From what I've heard around the tables, the person we know just isn't there during active addiction.... just not. He/she comes out while coming down or newly sober or sober... until then, the addictive personality just ain't the person I know. And THAT personality will do anything to be fed...

When I was drinking, my tolerance built to incredible levels,my "hangovers" were likely just withdrawal, and I was starting to have to impacts to work, social and self esteem... but I did not have cravings. I did not have to seek out my DOC because it was legal. So in those ways, I still have trouble understanding the animal that is addiction.

No problem, you didn't hijack.
I'm the one who brought up having a problem with disease vs. person.
I have no problem hating the disease.
I do have a problem with the idea that all of the dishonest behavior associated with the disease is a byproduct of that disease and not the responsibility of the person.
I mean, if that were the case, why would there be a fourth and a ninth step?

I agree with what you are saying.

However, hating the disease is a tool for me.

Hating the disease helps me maintain a loving and respectful attitude toward the person, when their actions are all too unlovable, and when they have done terrible damage to me.

Robin

Heres my dilemna as a codie.
When I minimalize the behavior by assigning fault to the disease, I am in essence enabling the addict to continue the behavior I find assaulting.
I am doing that by way of not allowing the consequences of the behavior to be his when I pin it on the disease.

How does that work for you? I mean that, I am curious. I don't mimize the behavior, and I hold the addict accountable.... but if they are active, I have NO expectations for an outcome. That means I can say - "I can't have this happen in my house anymore" and if it does, then the consequence - addict on the street - happens.

I think this is how it works for me...

The person I love has a disease called addiciton.
While aflicted with the disease, the addict (diseased person) does unacceptable things.
The disease is behind the unacceptable behavior.
I hate the disease.
My feelings for the person do not change.

I have boundaries around behavior that impacts ME.
The diseased person (addict) breaks those boundaries.
I have to remove myself from the addict's behavior, or remove the addict from me.

If I think the person I love is CHOOSING bad behavior, then I have to hate the person... and I don't want to do that. But I don't think believing in the disease will change WHAT the addict does or does not do.

At least, I think that is the thought process that allows me to love the addict and hate the disease.

I agree. I think the alcoholic jumps on the "it wasn't me it was the addiction or the alcohol" band wagon much to easily. It lets THEM off the hook and allows them to blame and we all know how well they can blame. It lets them shun being responsible for their actions while active. NOW, if they are truely working a good program this won't happen, but that my friend takes time, years even.
Even drunk they have a brain and are able to make choices. I agree the disease make them drink, but the lies, cheating and manipulation are choices they consciously make in order to keep drinking. Just my opinion.
I hate the disease, I hate the choices my husband made while drinking, BUT I love the person. I have to break it down to make it work for me.

BigSis,
Good points, I agree. For me, yes I love the person with the disease, no doubt. However, its not easy for me to say, well I love her/him, but hate that disease they have that MAKES them act that way.

I feel like we Al-anoners spend all this time, taking responsibility for whats ours and detaching, separating, and saying this is what is up to me and what I am in control of and no one else is to blame for MY choices.

And the addicts, while as unpleasant as this may sound, has the "I have a disease" card in their deck.
The disease may be what gets one into addiction, but certainly is not what stops them from recovery. They are responsible for that all on their own, in my opinion.

So, the way it works for me, is that I accept responsibility for my actions, and expect the alcoholic to do the same...disease or not. Oh man, I can really put into words what I want to say today..

Geeeeshhh.

I struggle so much with this addiction as a disease, I do believe addicts are sick but I believe it is a sickness of bad/selfish/wrong choices. You can't say no to cancer, you can say no thanks I'll only have one Parkinsons shake tonight. You can and people do choose not to have a drink or a line, or take a pill. I am so angry at my AH, he has just begun counseling, 3 weeks, at least 3 relapses that I am aware of, one being last night, he left for work around 9:30 AM and never came home, I still haven't heard from him but I spoke to someone at his rehab facility and he went to his counseling session this morning. Is that normal addict behavior? How can he be so "sick" as to use beyond being able to get himself home and then brush him self off and be able to get to couseling on time?

I agree with all of you but I mostly agree with "mythreesons". The person whom is doing this is very selfish/selfcentered person who makes bad and wrong choices.

My soon to be ex AH called tonight wanted to speak with our son which he did for a few minutes and then our son was finished talking with him and ready to get off the phone. This upset him totally (you know it is ok for him to only want to spend time with us on his terms and we are suppose to bow at his feet when he makes "time for us". I tried seperating the person and the disease and it made no difference with him, I even tried the going on with our activities without him and sometimes all this accomplished was adding fuel to the fire. I am sorry but no more of the merry go round, I am now focused on my son's and my own well being.

If he does not like it well 1-800-bite-me. LOL Sorry just needed to vent a little today. My son was just saying this morning that he hates the things going on this time of year. Had to reassure him that we would be alright and that it was ok to be upset. I hate this disease and what it does to the person.

Doubletime :slomo:

One of the first things active addiction took from me was a healthy sense of priorities. However, it never took away my desire to cover my ass when I knew full well I'd messed up in the eyes of my loved ones.