Repeat Offender Problem ...
Getting busy living!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Worcester MA
Posts: 199
Repeat Offender Problem ...
I wonder why!!! I wanted to post earlier about this but I had to calm down first. My AH went to court today for probation violation on the DUI he got back caught for back in February. Now, as some of you know my AH is finally in serious recovery as he hit his rock bottom at the beginning of November. Since getting out of rehab he has been attending AA meetings 7 days a week and sometimes going twice a day as there are 4 meetings that are in walking distance of our home at two local churches. For those in early recovery AA recommends at least one meeting a day for the first 90 days.
Well, he gets in front of the judge. His probabtion officer initially recommends locking him up. Well, so much for his recovery program if they do that. (He's also finally in decent treatment for his depression too. I guess suicide attempt #3 was the charm to finally get that.) But his lawyer explained his whole treatment program so they decide house arrest will do. That's fine by me. He's very regular on his AA attendence and his outpatient treatment. No need for him to be out wandering around for anything else. Well the probation officer decides he only needs 3 AA meetings per week!!!!! I asked the probation officer why only 3? He needs 7 days a week. Well he says, he goes to AA 3 times a week and then goes to out patient 3 times a week, that's 6 couseling sessions ... blah, blah, and blah. I said AA recommends at least one meeting per day for the first 90 days. Well then he got rude and snooty with me. I told him I was NOT the criminal here, if anything I was as much a victim of the alcoholism as the individual who was driving the car he hit and that I expected to be treated with respect. I then said it's obvious the fools are running the ship around here and maybe the general public you are so intent on trying to protect should know the real reason there are so many repeat offenders on the road. I then left.
Oh by the way, as an aside, when he went in August for this first DUI he showed up in court under the influence. The probation officer wanted to section 35 him and send him to rehab for 120 days. They had a court phsyciatrist talk to him and my AH conviced the Dr that he didn't need rehab. They did ask him if they could call me but he said no. HELLO! YOU WERE TALKING TO AN ADDICT!!!!! If they had called me I would have said "send him" in a heartbeat. But he didn't get sent away so in my opinion THEY are resonsible for his second offense. As I said, the ship is being run by fools. Pathetic!
I am just so angry that it is quite obvious that those that are in a postion to deal out justice don't have a single clue about alcoholism, or addiction in general for that matter. It's one thing when you are talking about the person who went to the bar to watch the game, had a few too many, decided to drive and got nabbed. It's another thing when you are talking about an alcoholic, tried and true. Look at your "repeat offenders". I guarantee they are A's. And as we all know an active A doesn't care about anything, not you, not me, not the lady and her 3 kids in the mini-van, all they care about is getting that next drink. So judge, when an A, who is in a serious recovery program comes before you DON'T screw around with it!!!!!!
By the way, when my AH was in rehab one of his fellow patients was a judge and he wasn't really there by his choice. HIs boss told him "go to rehab or lose your job." How ironic.
Thank you for letting me rant. I feel better.
Well, he gets in front of the judge. His probabtion officer initially recommends locking him up. Well, so much for his recovery program if they do that. (He's also finally in decent treatment for his depression too. I guess suicide attempt #3 was the charm to finally get that.) But his lawyer explained his whole treatment program so they decide house arrest will do. That's fine by me. He's very regular on his AA attendence and his outpatient treatment. No need for him to be out wandering around for anything else. Well the probation officer decides he only needs 3 AA meetings per week!!!!! I asked the probation officer why only 3? He needs 7 days a week. Well he says, he goes to AA 3 times a week and then goes to out patient 3 times a week, that's 6 couseling sessions ... blah, blah, and blah. I said AA recommends at least one meeting per day for the first 90 days. Well then he got rude and snooty with me. I told him I was NOT the criminal here, if anything I was as much a victim of the alcoholism as the individual who was driving the car he hit and that I expected to be treated with respect. I then said it's obvious the fools are running the ship around here and maybe the general public you are so intent on trying to protect should know the real reason there are so many repeat offenders on the road. I then left.
Oh by the way, as an aside, when he went in August for this first DUI he showed up in court under the influence. The probation officer wanted to section 35 him and send him to rehab for 120 days. They had a court phsyciatrist talk to him and my AH conviced the Dr that he didn't need rehab. They did ask him if they could call me but he said no. HELLO! YOU WERE TALKING TO AN ADDICT!!!!! If they had called me I would have said "send him" in a heartbeat. But he didn't get sent away so in my opinion THEY are resonsible for his second offense. As I said, the ship is being run by fools. Pathetic!
I am just so angry that it is quite obvious that those that are in a postion to deal out justice don't have a single clue about alcoholism, or addiction in general for that matter. It's one thing when you are talking about the person who went to the bar to watch the game, had a few too many, decided to drive and got nabbed. It's another thing when you are talking about an alcoholic, tried and true. Look at your "repeat offenders". I guarantee they are A's. And as we all know an active A doesn't care about anything, not you, not me, not the lady and her 3 kids in the mini-van, all they care about is getting that next drink. So judge, when an A, who is in a serious recovery program comes before you DON'T screw around with it!!!!!!
By the way, when my AH was in rehab one of his fellow patients was a judge and he wasn't really there by his choice. HIs boss told him "go to rehab or lose your job." How ironic.
Thank you for letting me rant. I feel better.
Occasional poor taste poster
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,542
Damn TG... You managed to say all the things I wish I had said... after the fact! You go Girl! The "system" certainly allowed my ex to get right back on the road a couple times and threw in a few lost opportunities for forced rehab as well. I hear these types of stories all to often. What a mess.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Litterbox City
Posts: 5,691
TG - it just goes to show that there are still too many folks out in the real world that don't take alcoholism seriously, are grossly uneducated or just don't give a rat's butt. It's truly sad and you are right, the cycle will continue as long as this type of stuff continues. When my hubby got his DUI, his atty. (friend that he's known since the first grade) has NO CLUE about the complexities of alcoholism. We had a long chat at the front door one evening while hubby was passed out in bed. He said words to the effect of "well, if he promises he won't drink & drive...." - WTF! He also asked why he was driving the car without insurance and couldn't I have paid the bill. I let im know that hubby had been pretty much out of it most of the time and when his bills came in he wasn't taking care of them. I told him that was enabling as it was HIS car that he bought for fun (yeah right), HIS bill. My name was not on the title or policy. He just had no clue.
So I really think it's a combination of things that lead to repeat offenders, but the court system truly does need a big-time overhaul!
So I really think it's a combination of things that lead to repeat offenders, but the court system truly does need a big-time overhaul!
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: out of town
Posts: 85
Why is it the courts responsibility? Do you really believe it is the systems fault, that because they don't lock him up or send him to treatment he gets repeat offenses. Why can't your husband continue to go to meetings 7 days a week? Did I miss something, is he going to be violated if he goes more. I think the courts have learned for true success they need to see the initiative come from the addict. If a court orders him to go 7 days a week and he misses one, then he violates his probation. Could it be the probation officer does not want to set him up to fail?
I think it is inappropriate for the court system to order somenone to go to AA as their punishment, what does that do to the culture of the meeting when half the people are in there just to get the paper signed. I have witnessed those meetings and I feel for those who are in the meeting becuase they want to be, it is a mockery. I think there are many more effective ways to handle those that drink and drive.
Maybe if the alcoholic had to be accountable for there actions, and not use it as a crutch or excuse alot of people would be out of a job.
I think it is inappropriate for the court system to order somenone to go to AA as their punishment, what does that do to the culture of the meeting when half the people are in there just to get the paper signed. I have witnessed those meetings and I feel for those who are in the meeting becuase they want to be, it is a mockery. I think there are many more effective ways to handle those that drink and drive.
Maybe if the alcoholic had to be accountable for there actions, and not use it as a crutch or excuse alot of people would be out of a job.
Getting busy living!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Worcester MA
Posts: 199
Originally Posted by dreamcatcher
Why is it the courts responsibility? Do you really believe it is the systems fault, that because they don't lock him up or send him to treatment he gets repeat offenses. Why can't your husband continue to go to meetings 7 days a week? Did I miss something, is he going to be violated if he goes more. I think the courts have learned for true success they need to see the initiative come from the addict. If a court orders him to go 7 days a week and he misses one, then he violates his probation. Could it be the probation officer does not want to set him up to fail?
I think it is inappropriate for the court system to order somenone to go to AA as their punishment, what does that do to the culture of the meeting when half the people are in there just to get the paper signed. I have witnessed those meetings and I feel for those who are in the meeting becuase they want to be, it is a mockery. I think there are many more effective ways to handle those that drink and drive.
Maybe if the alcoholic had to be accountable for there actions, and not use it as a crutch or excuse alot of people would be out of a job.
I think it is inappropriate for the court system to order somenone to go to AA as their punishment, what does that do to the culture of the meeting when half the people are in there just to get the paper signed. I have witnessed those meetings and I feel for those who are in the meeting becuase they want to be, it is a mockery. I think there are many more effective ways to handle those that drink and drive.
Maybe if the alcoholic had to be accountable for there actions, and not use it as a crutch or excuse alot of people would be out of a job.
anyway, my main point was my husband is in serious recovery and the court screwed around with his program. It upset me and more importantly, it upset him!!! He KNOWS he needs those meetings 7 days a week. The courts just come across as clueless in regards to the successful methods of conquering alcoholism. And yes, A's are accountable for their actions. Problem is, because they are ADDICTS and the need for the next drink is so strong they don't act rational, they don't think. I wish they could change the law to make it illeagal for a diagnosed alcoholic to purchase booze. But that will never, ever happen anymore than the extremely obese person will be denied access to McDonalds or the person with emphysema will be denied the right to purchase cigarettes.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Northeast, USA
Posts: 39
Excuse the intrusion.
An option may be to call or see the Assistant Chief or even the Chief of Probation. Conditions can always be modified once you have left court. Even with the electronic monitoring this is possible. Some courts see this as trying to spend the most time out of the house as possible while on electronic monitoring. Unfortunately, this can be the case. And of course, if he just leaves the house even for a meeting in a pinch that is not scheduled a warrant can be issued and he will be sent to jail pending the VOP hearing. You and your husband know what is best for his well being, it may be worth a shot to try and increase the number of meetings mandated.
Just my 0.02,
Good Luck
PS If you do contact an ACPO or a CPO give the PO a heads up. Don't give him a reason to try and smoke your husband.
An option may be to call or see the Assistant Chief or even the Chief of Probation. Conditions can always be modified once you have left court. Even with the electronic monitoring this is possible. Some courts see this as trying to spend the most time out of the house as possible while on electronic monitoring. Unfortunately, this can be the case. And of course, if he just leaves the house even for a meeting in a pinch that is not scheduled a warrant can be issued and he will be sent to jail pending the VOP hearing. You and your husband know what is best for his well being, it may be worth a shot to try and increase the number of meetings mandated.
Just my 0.02,
Good Luck
PS If you do contact an ACPO or a CPO give the PO a heads up. Don't give him a reason to try and smoke your husband.
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: over yonder
Posts: 1,548
dreamcatcher
I think court ordered is great. Anything to get them through those doors. Once through those doors it takes away that fear. Even non A's that would like to visit have a fear of stepping through those doors.
AA people say the new person is the most important person there. (Or has something changed??)
To stay sober they need new comers to help.
That is what Dr. Bob and Bill came up with, they went to find others to help, so they could stay sober.
Have you read about how AA started??
I am sure some members do not believe court ordered is good, they think the person isn't ready etc. etc. but it spoils drinking for some, some hear more than we think, and maybe it takes years, but they remember that first meeting and know where to go.
Just wanted to share my thoughts.
Sure if I want to pick the topic for the eve I am disappointed, But I have never been to a bad meeting.
I think court ordered is great. Anything to get them through those doors. Once through those doors it takes away that fear. Even non A's that would like to visit have a fear of stepping through those doors.
AA people say the new person is the most important person there. (Or has something changed??)
To stay sober they need new comers to help.
That is what Dr. Bob and Bill came up with, they went to find others to help, so they could stay sober.
Have you read about how AA started??
I am sure some members do not believe court ordered is good, they think the person isn't ready etc. etc. but it spoils drinking for some, some hear more than we think, and maybe it takes years, but they remember that first meeting and know where to go.
Just wanted to share my thoughts.
Sure if I want to pick the topic for the eve I am disappointed, But I have never been to a bad meeting.
Getting busy living!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Worcester MA
Posts: 199
Thanks Gideon, great advice. And yes, any violation (unless the house was burning down and he had to run for his life) even if it's to go to a meeting would cause a warrant. Well he's decided to see if he can get a sponsor. He was advised to wait a bit on that but that was before his meeting attendence was limited by the courts. If he can't go to AA maybe a little bit of AA can get to him via sponsor contact on his no meeting days. Just gauls me though. He was enjoying and getting so much out of them. I even attended one with him on sunday night. Open meeting with speakers. The speakers were fantastic!!! Yes, I can still go alone but it won't be the same as he and I talked about the meeting afterwards and discussed a lot of what the speakers said. If he doesn't go it would be like discussing a book where only one of the two people discussing have read it. Oh well, this goes on until January 19th and then he goes back. He'll have to make the most out of what he can attend.
Totally OT but here in Mass there's talk about stiffer penalties for people who get into accidents because they are drowsy. Now that's something I could be guilty of ... Ms Insomnia 2006! lol I'll have to start up CSA. "Can't Sleepers Anonymous"!
Totally OT but here in Mass there's talk about stiffer penalties for people who get into accidents because they are drowsy. Now that's something I could be guilty of ... Ms Insomnia 2006! lol I'll have to start up CSA. "Can't Sleepers Anonymous"!
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: out of town
Posts: 85
TomsGirl...
I did ask if I had missed something, thanks for the clarity on his house arrest. It is very rarely offered to a person with a drug or alcohol problem where I am from as they can sit home and use, not much of a punishment. Hopefully your husband can stay sober with the contact he gets 6 days a week and if not you can blame the court system.
If you have had to sit through an entire day of hearings for ADDICTS or people who drink and drive day after day, you might have more of an understanding for the judges and probation officers. The bullsh#$ they have to hear over and over. Oh yes your honor I will never do that again, or yes your honor I go to meetings everyday, funny not a signature on the card, or a whole bunch of them forged. These men and woman in our court system are not drug counsolers or therapists, they are there to ENFORCE THE LAW. YOUR ADDICT broke the law. How do expect the court system to determine if this one is an addict or is this one just a person who drinks and drives, most specialists can't do it even with months of observation if ever.
Most of time we don't believe our addicts/alcoholics, how do we possibly expect some one who has met them once or twice and on those occasions they show up drunk
You can blast me all you want, AA should not be a form of punishment for a DUI. I think the offender should attend a Mothers Against Drunk Drivers Meetings, or how about spending a few nights at the homeless shelter. Maybe they need to spend some time with Victim Witness Program and meet the loved ones of a person who was killed by a drunk driver. Let the offender explain it to that group...oh I drink and drive because I have a disease. AA should be suggested not ordered. I think AA is useful while they are incarcerated (offered not ordered)
I think breathalizers should be mandated to all vehicles that are registered to them on the first offense.
My A was given an option of attending 36 AA meetings or having to put breathalizers in the 6 vehicles he owned. What do you think he chose? AA of course. Attended about six meetings, got a second DUI.......oh but your honor I get so much out of those meetings........ok attend 16 more meetings, got a 3rd DUI and hurt someone, but still attending AA and getting those cards signed. He was sentenced to prison for 2 years got out in 9 months because he was such a model prisoner and is going to attend AA everyday and still drinking.
I guess if you have cancer and rob a bank you should go to chemotherapy in stead of jail.
And yes I have read the big book and how AA was started and have attended many meetings good and bad....yes their are bad meetings. I have worked in mental health and drug and alcohol counsoling for 16 years so hopefully that gives me a little insight to what I am talking about. We all still have a right to our opinions don't we?
I did ask if I had missed something, thanks for the clarity on his house arrest. It is very rarely offered to a person with a drug or alcohol problem where I am from as they can sit home and use, not much of a punishment. Hopefully your husband can stay sober with the contact he gets 6 days a week and if not you can blame the court system.
If you have had to sit through an entire day of hearings for ADDICTS or people who drink and drive day after day, you might have more of an understanding for the judges and probation officers. The bullsh#$ they have to hear over and over. Oh yes your honor I will never do that again, or yes your honor I go to meetings everyday, funny not a signature on the card, or a whole bunch of them forged. These men and woman in our court system are not drug counsolers or therapists, they are there to ENFORCE THE LAW. YOUR ADDICT broke the law. How do expect the court system to determine if this one is an addict or is this one just a person who drinks and drives, most specialists can't do it even with months of observation if ever.
Most of time we don't believe our addicts/alcoholics, how do we possibly expect some one who has met them once or twice and on those occasions they show up drunk
You can blast me all you want, AA should not be a form of punishment for a DUI. I think the offender should attend a Mothers Against Drunk Drivers Meetings, or how about spending a few nights at the homeless shelter. Maybe they need to spend some time with Victim Witness Program and meet the loved ones of a person who was killed by a drunk driver. Let the offender explain it to that group...oh I drink and drive because I have a disease. AA should be suggested not ordered. I think AA is useful while they are incarcerated (offered not ordered)
I think breathalizers should be mandated to all vehicles that are registered to them on the first offense.
My A was given an option of attending 36 AA meetings or having to put breathalizers in the 6 vehicles he owned. What do you think he chose? AA of course. Attended about six meetings, got a second DUI.......oh but your honor I get so much out of those meetings........ok attend 16 more meetings, got a 3rd DUI and hurt someone, but still attending AA and getting those cards signed. He was sentenced to prison for 2 years got out in 9 months because he was such a model prisoner and is going to attend AA everyday and still drinking.
I guess if you have cancer and rob a bank you should go to chemotherapy in stead of jail.
And yes I have read the big book and how AA was started and have attended many meetings good and bad....yes their are bad meetings. I have worked in mental health and drug and alcohol counsoling for 16 years so hopefully that gives me a little insight to what I am talking about. We all still have a right to our opinions don't we?
Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Litterbox City
Posts: 5,691
in ohio they do have to attend a MADD meeting (which my hubby never made it to because he was drinking on both occasions when the time came). i must say my hubby's PO was pretty saavy, when i spoke to her about him being in detox and not making his appt. she said she was not surprised. she said he's been drinking for 30 years and she didn't expect him NOT to relapse. i don't have the answers obviously - bottom line is they have to want recovery and be willing to do whatever it takes.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: out of town
Posts: 85
After going back and reading your threads, I think the realization is your husband primary problem is not alcohol or addiction HE HAS A SEVERE MENTAL ILLNESS. Their is a big difference. You cannot compare an addict or alcholic to a person who is mentally ill. Mental Illness in not choice, you cannot go to a meeting a believe in a higher power and then BOOM the mental illness is gone. AA can be very devastating to a person that is mentally ill. They don't fit in, yes in there euphoria and desperation they can believe AA helps but in the end when the mental illness takes over and they lose that chip it is devastating. Please focus on you husbands mental illness and not the addiction.
Getting busy living!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Worcester MA
Posts: 199
Originally Posted by dreamcatcher
After going back and reading your threads, I think the realization is your husband primary problem is not alcohol or addiction HE HAS A SEVERE MENTAL ILLNESS. Their is a big difference. You cannot compare an addict or alcholic to a person who is mentally ill. Mental Illness in not choice, you cannot go to a meeting a believe in a higher power and then BOOM the mental illness is gone. AA can be very devastating to a person that is mentally ill. They don't fit in, yes in there euphoria and desperation they can believe AA helps but in the end when the mental illness takes over and they lose that chip it is devastating. Please focus on you husbands mental illness and not the addiction.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: out of town
Posts: 85
Why should this be getting personal? This is about your loved one, not you, correct?
I thought we came here to share through experience and learning. I think what triggers some of my responses, and you may may have noticed they are not sugar coated, is the blame game. blame the courts, blame the alcohol, blame the world. Lets just focus on the situation and get on with it.
I agree the treatment needs to go hand and hand WHEN the mental illness is being treated effectivley. Their is a big difference between someone who drinks beer, progresses to vodka,whiskey,tequilla, than someone who progresses from beer,vodka to antifreeze.
As far as my statement about AA and not fitting in, again not directed at you, The point being OF COURSE they will make you feel welcome, it is what happens internally to the person trying to stay sober. When a person is mentally ill and relapses it is devastaing for them, and the shame and guilt is compounded when the sobriety is taken away and they have to start all over. A person who is clinically depressed already feels badly about themselves and somethimes the teaching of AA don't fit for them.
Yes I was a counsoler, but in no way does that make me an expert. I have just learned through working with so many others who have suffered,and through my own experience of being married to a alcoholicfor 23 years. Yes it is true, even though we work in the field we can't fix our own or always make the best decisions for ourselves.
I thought we came here to share through experience and learning. I think what triggers some of my responses, and you may may have noticed they are not sugar coated, is the blame game. blame the courts, blame the alcohol, blame the world. Lets just focus on the situation and get on with it.
I agree the treatment needs to go hand and hand WHEN the mental illness is being treated effectivley. Their is a big difference between someone who drinks beer, progresses to vodka,whiskey,tequilla, than someone who progresses from beer,vodka to antifreeze.
As far as my statement about AA and not fitting in, again not directed at you, The point being OF COURSE they will make you feel welcome, it is what happens internally to the person trying to stay sober. When a person is mentally ill and relapses it is devastaing for them, and the shame and guilt is compounded when the sobriety is taken away and they have to start all over. A person who is clinically depressed already feels badly about themselves and somethimes the teaching of AA don't fit for them.
Yes I was a counsoler, but in no way does that make me an expert. I have just learned through working with so many others who have suffered,and through my own experience of being married to a alcoholicfor 23 years. Yes it is true, even though we work in the field we can't fix our own or always make the best decisions for ourselves.
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: over yonder
Posts: 1,548
There should be no argument, we all state our opinions, and that is great. To clarify our opinion is not argument or critisim(sp) it helps us all learn We can all learn from each opinion. To question is also good, we learn more.
Each person is different. What works for one does not work for another how well we know. These posts make me think. Thank you all.
TomsGirl HUGS
Each person is different. What works for one does not work for another how well we know. These posts make me think. Thank you all.
TomsGirl HUGS
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