An alternative version of the 12 Steps
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Supply Manager
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Cleaverville
Posts: 2,898
Equus...what Splenda said. There is a bit of division between the stayers and the leavers...(I am a Cleaver..lol). Staying or leaving is constantly discussed around here and in the rooms as well. That's all I was talking about.
Also people often misunderstand Al Anon as a way to learn to live with alcoholism. It is no such thing. And there have been plenty of threads along those lines around here too. Not now...but since day one. Know what I mean?
Oh and I never thought anyone here was making money. My experience with many alternatives that pop up is that they are formed to make money....if not primarily then at least on some level. There is a lot to made in this area and it can be exploited.
For a "program" to so blatantly promote leaving seems irresponsible to me. How can someone who is severly affected by years of living with alcoholism make that decision? In ER the decision has been made for the person. I can see that there are people who would find that appealing.
Also people often misunderstand Al Anon as a way to learn to live with alcoholism. It is no such thing. And there have been plenty of threads along those lines around here too. Not now...but since day one. Know what I mean?
Oh and I never thought anyone here was making money. My experience with many alternatives that pop up is that they are formed to make money....if not primarily then at least on some level. There is a lot to made in this area and it can be exploited.
For a "program" to so blatantly promote leaving seems irresponsible to me. How can someone who is severly affected by years of living with alcoholism make that decision? In ER the decision has been made for the person. I can see that there are people who would find that appealing.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Punta Gorda, FL
Posts: 2
JT,
Please allow me to address a couple of points...
Just for the record, I've never made a dime off Empowered Recovery. Quite the opposite... I've spent countless thousands of hours coaching and helping people at my own expense. I also cover the costs of hosting ER out of my own pocket. I don't even ask for donations. The only products I have are ones associated with my professional websites, which are also linked to ER. I've also given my products away to my online group for free at least two times.
As you can see, I have strong ethical issues with charging anything for helping others with alcoholic relationships.
May I suggest you read ALL of the information at my site, including my FREE eBook before you draw conclusions as to what I think or don't think regarding recovery.
I'm afraid that you are not the first person to criticize ER, nor will you be the last. But here is what I have learned from those who criticize me or ER: It doesn't matter how right you are; it doesn't matter how honest you are; it doesn't matter how well-intentioned you are. Some people will like you. Some won't. Some people will agree with you. Some won't.
I found that Al-Anon didn't work for me and many others. So I developed an alternative approach. Al-Anon has helped many people. So have I. Everyone is not cast out of the same mold. Different things work for different people.
JT, I know you feel the pain of an alcoholic relationship. So did I. I'm human. I have feelings. I am doing the best I can to help others minimize or avoid suffering as you and I have. I can't tell you how many times I've thought about just quitting the whole thing. But until people stop benefitting from my experience, I'll keep offering it.
Perhaps there is something to learn from my painful experience as reflected in ER. The very reason that so many people have been affected by alcoholism for "so many years" is the very reason why ER exists. I'm tired of being affected by alcoholism. Aren't you? That's why I believe that we must resolve an alcoholic relationship, even if that means leaving the relationship.
I wish you well.
Doug Kelley
Founder of Empowered Recovery.
Please allow me to address a couple of points...
there is money being made on some level at the expense of people like us.
As you can see, I have strong ethical issues with charging anything for helping others with alcoholic relationships.
For a "program" to so blatantly promote leaving seems irresponsible to me. How can someone who is severly affected by years of living with alcoholism make that decision? In ER the decision has been made for the person. I can see that there are people who would find that appealing.
I'm afraid that you are not the first person to criticize ER, nor will you be the last. But here is what I have learned from those who criticize me or ER: It doesn't matter how right you are; it doesn't matter how honest you are; it doesn't matter how well-intentioned you are. Some people will like you. Some won't. Some people will agree with you. Some won't.
I found that Al-Anon didn't work for me and many others. So I developed an alternative approach. Al-Anon has helped many people. So have I. Everyone is not cast out of the same mold. Different things work for different people.
JT, I know you feel the pain of an alcoholic relationship. So did I. I'm human. I have feelings. I am doing the best I can to help others minimize or avoid suffering as you and I have. I can't tell you how many times I've thought about just quitting the whole thing. But until people stop benefitting from my experience, I'll keep offering it.
Perhaps there is something to learn from my painful experience as reflected in ER. The very reason that so many people have been affected by alcoholism for "so many years" is the very reason why ER exists. I'm tired of being affected by alcoholism. Aren't you? That's why I believe that we must resolve an alcoholic relationship, even if that means leaving the relationship.
I wish you well.
Doug Kelley
Founder of Empowered Recovery.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Starting over all over again
Posts: 4,426
My .02 worth :-)
Any improvement in a persons life is good. No "program" is perfect. Everybody flounders about looking for a way to better their life until they find something that helps. Some folks do well in one "program", then move on to another. Other folks do well in one program, then learn to adapt that program as they grow.
All programs have _some_ fault, somewhere, that makes them incapable of helping _everybody_ on the planet. The trick is to find a program that is flexible enough to allow _me_ to adapt said program to my needs.
As an abused child I would have been eternally grateful if my abusers had adopted _any_ program, no matter how twisted or expensive, and stopped abusing me for just one day. To me that would have been progress.
I'm not going to analyze this "ER" program and find faults in it. That's a waste of my time. If somebody else wants to try out this "ER" program I would be delighted to hear how it _worked_ for them. I'm interested in results and experience, not opinions.
Oh Minnie, making an e-version of a book is a _huge_ amount of work. Especially if it's not already in some kind of electronic form. If you would like to volunteer to help with the conversion of Al-Anon text to e-books call up the Al-Anon central office, they'd love to hear from you. The biggest challenge right now is not conversion to electronic, but distribution in many countries where any woman who even _thinks_ of being respected and empowered risks getting beaten to death. 'tis just a matter of priorities.
BTW, the AA Big Book, english version, is already electronic and free to download.
Mike :-)
Any improvement in a persons life is good. No "program" is perfect. Everybody flounders about looking for a way to better their life until they find something that helps. Some folks do well in one "program", then move on to another. Other folks do well in one program, then learn to adapt that program as they grow.
All programs have _some_ fault, somewhere, that makes them incapable of helping _everybody_ on the planet. The trick is to find a program that is flexible enough to allow _me_ to adapt said program to my needs.
As an abused child I would have been eternally grateful if my abusers had adopted _any_ program, no matter how twisted or expensive, and stopped abusing me for just one day. To me that would have been progress.
I'm not going to analyze this "ER" program and find faults in it. That's a waste of my time. If somebody else wants to try out this "ER" program I would be delighted to hear how it _worked_ for them. I'm interested in results and experience, not opinions.
Oh Minnie, making an e-version of a book is a _huge_ amount of work. Especially if it's not already in some kind of electronic form. If you would like to volunteer to help with the conversion of Al-Anon text to e-books call up the Al-Anon central office, they'd love to hear from you. The biggest challenge right now is not conversion to electronic, but distribution in many countries where any woman who even _thinks_ of being respected and empowered risks getting beaten to death. 'tis just a matter of priorities.
BTW, the AA Big Book, english version, is already electronic and free to download.
Mike :-)
Binge poster
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 561
Hey, I'd just like to say that I make electronic books all the time.
Unless there is absolutely no electronic text available in any form it's not hard work. I would get another job if it was, because I don't have the attention span!
J
xx
Unless there is absolutely no electronic text available in any form it's not hard work. I would get another job if it was, because I don't have the attention span!
J
xx
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2004
Location: England
Posts: 3,410
Occasional poor taste poster
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,542
Doug - Thanks for clarifying those points, and thanks for all your effort. I, for one, have never seen a document, (your free e-book) or approach that addresses these issues in such a logical and productive way, (for my specific situation). Your efforts are greatly appreciated.
Minnie - explain to me just how Doug ended up jumping into this thread? Did you have anything to do with that?!?!
Minnie - explain to me just how Doug ended up jumping into this thread? Did you have anything to do with that?!?!
Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Punta Gorda, FL
Posts: 2
Jazzman,
Thank you very much for your kind words! I found this thread because I often check my website statistics to see where visitors come from. Minnie had nothing to do with me finding it. I felt it important to clarify the issues brought up on this thread.
Minnie,
I appreciate you posting my stuff! No need to feel bad. I am happy when people find value in ER and spread it to others.
Thank you both for your interest and support!
Doug Kelley
Thank you very much for your kind words! I found this thread because I often check my website statistics to see where visitors come from. Minnie had nothing to do with me finding it. I felt it important to clarify the issues brought up on this thread.
Minnie,
I appreciate you posting my stuff! No need to feel bad. I am happy when people find value in ER and spread it to others.
Thank you both for your interest and support!
Doug Kelley
Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Starting over all over again
Posts: 4,426
Originally Posted by bahookie
Hey, I'd just like to say that I make electronic books all the time...
Mike :-)
Supply Manager
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Cleaverville
Posts: 2,898
Doug,
I purposely avoided talking in absolutes because there is no such thing. And when I mentioned money I also said I would be pleasantly surprised if that were not the case. I also plan to read through your site completely because I do like to be informed about what is out there.
I admit to being a little sensitive at times because people so often condemn Al Anon as a program that “teaches people to live with it”. On the contrary, Al Anon teaches people to live. That attitude unnerves me as you can probably detect. I don’t agree with promoting leaving any more than I would agree with promoting staying.
I have no reason to debate you….at least not until I read more of your site..lol! Like Mike said…anything that works is worth working. I have said many times that since the initial rigidity of my program I have branched way out and discovered that AA’s 12 steps is not at all unique. It is one version of a map that can take me from where I was to where I am now.
You seem like a reasonable enough person…nice to meetcha!
I purposely avoided talking in absolutes because there is no such thing. And when I mentioned money I also said I would be pleasantly surprised if that were not the case. I also plan to read through your site completely because I do like to be informed about what is out there.
I admit to being a little sensitive at times because people so often condemn Al Anon as a program that “teaches people to live with it”. On the contrary, Al Anon teaches people to live. That attitude unnerves me as you can probably detect. I don’t agree with promoting leaving any more than I would agree with promoting staying.
I have no reason to debate you….at least not until I read more of your site..lol! Like Mike said…anything that works is worth working. I have said many times that since the initial rigidity of my program I have branched way out and discovered that AA’s 12 steps is not at all unique. It is one version of a map that can take me from where I was to where I am now.
You seem like a reasonable enough person…nice to meetcha!
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