equus

Jenna,

We can't understand you so quickly - not because there's a lack of care, it doesn't reflect that at all. It takes so long to really get to know people, I know some people here but I also know the difference in that and the way I know lifelong friends - it takes time, it takes so much time.

Being understood takes patience on both sides - yours and ours, that patience comes from knowing what a hard task it is and that we do want to connect as people. What would it take to know me like my best mate does? It would take knowing all the changes I've been through and knowing how I as an individual went through them, then it takes forgiveness to repair friendship through some awful mistakes, it takes so much time and effort. In a 23 year long friendship we still misunderstand each other but while we might huff and puff for a moment or two, we've learned it doesn't always reflect any lack of effort or care - there's still things to learn about each other.

With my husband the history is less long, we learn about each other everyday, we misunderstand each other sometimes. I have a cold that made me feel very sick - but not like I was going to throw up, just sick. My husband told me he's felt like that all his life, he knows he has to eat but feels sick and on a bad day is - I didn't know that, I didn't know he loves my meals because I made them, but he still feels slightly sick. We learn everyday and that's the way it should be.

Does he understand me? Not yet, doing that is the journey of love and life - things are as they should be.

Do I understand him? Sometimes arrogantly I can say yes, but in truth it's still a journey and one which I've only just begun, but that's as it should be too.

It takes time, effort, patience, tolerance, and humility to know we still need to learn to get to even begin to understand another human being.

Don't be too hard on us for not understanding - or too hard on yourself, it's not a sign that there's something wrong with you, it's a normal part of life.

BTW - I'm an aitheist so you ain't gonna get any judgement from me re whether you love god enough - you only owe to yourself to live the best you can IMHO.

shutterbug

Thank you Equus and Gabe...I respect your words. .

I'M HEADING TO BED NOW.....SO PLEASE GUYS....EVERYONE ELSE: IF YOU DONT' HAVE LOVING AND SUPPORTIVE AND KIND WORDS TO SAY TO ME OR RYAN THEN AT THIS POINT PLEASE DON'T SAY THEM AT ALL. I BEG YOU...I KNOW MOST OF YOU COULD NEVER UNDERSTAND BUT THIS HAS ALL BEEN ALMOST TOO MUCH FOR ME TO HANDLE. MY HAIR IS ALREADY FALLING OUT FROM HOW MUCH STRESS I ALREADY HAVE IN MY LIFE FROM NOT BEING ABLE TO HANDLE THINGS, EVEN SMALL THINGS RIGHT NOW, AND THIS FEELS LIKE A GIANT THING TO ME RIGHT NOW. SO PLEASE...I KNOW THAT MANY OF YOUR HEARTS ARE IN THE RIGHT PLACE...I JUST CAN'T TAKE ANY HARSHNESS WHAT SO EVER RIGHT NOW. I'M TRULY SORRY THAT I GOT THIS ALL STIRRED UP CUS GOD KNOWS I DON'T LIKE OR WANT ANY MORE DRAMA IN MY LIFE. I FEEL STUPID FOR OPENING MYSELF AND RYAN UP TO ALL OF THIS....I WILL SORT IT ALL OUT ON MY OWN.

WHAT A CLUSTER....

GOODNIGHT AND GOD BLESS,
JENNA

CodeMaster

Sweetdreams and best wishes to you.

ASpouse

You are too too funny. None of what you mentioned above is how Jenna presented this situation. It sounds as if she loves you, not as a friend either.

My only suggestion to both of you is first, go to a counsellor who is familiar in dealing with bi-polar disorder. The both of you are like the blind leading the blind ...

I hope this thread ends as it really has nothing to do with dealing with "Friends and Family of Alcoholics" unless you are an alcoholic also?

guyinNC

You are an Adult Shutterbug. Make your own choice. Freewill, you know. Ryan is a class act. I'm sure you will be happy.

ASpouse

I'm sorry you are wrong ..... I did not condemn you, I'm afraid for you, and no I would not feel the same way if someone said "How Dare I" about something I hold near and dear. Do you know why? Because when someone calls me to the carpet in that way, it makes ME step back and think about and analyze what I am doing and why?

Do I like it? Nope, not always, but I do know that it comes from the persons good heart to help me, to push me in the right direction. After I analyze my actions and pray to God for guidance, I will admit I was wrong or I will be comfortable in my own skin to know that what I am doing or not doing is right. There are consequences for actions ..... being mature and grown up helps us to accept those consequences. It's about choices and if you want to use God and religious undertones, God loves us enough to give us the free will to make our choices and live with the consequences, good or bad, He will always forgive us.

If this relationship with Ryan is something you are comfortable with, can live with your choice and the consequences of this so called relationship, then by all means do it. After all, God will always be there for you to help you.

Now that this has turned around to a completely different way than you expected, I have to ask ..... why did you post something like this in the first place?

equus

There are lots of people here who had ex's that abused alcohol and sometimes they post about other things in their life - especially when they feel it's the same problem in them getting them involved.

Maybe ask yourself what the intention was when this was typed? What did you want the reader to feel? Why?

Perhaps some things are hard to understand, maybe unless you have had some things in your life they seem impossible to understand - but there are always people at the other end of these keyboards.

I think here it is about lack of understanding rather than ill intent - but I also think it's worth second checking what gets typed in the little box and sent back up there^

ASpouse

Honestly equus you know I sugarcoat nothing. Perhaps I don't say things "sweetly" but who has the time to dance around things. This is what got me in trouble in the first place living with an alcoholic, I call them the way I see them, just as you all do.

I say what I have to say and then move on to the next "disaster" .... sometimes things are quite as simple as black and white and as hard as this is to believe, I am very compassionate.

This entire thread has turned around on Jenna and now she is becoming defensive. Let me ask you, how would you like it if D had a "loving friendship" with a woman on the internet to speak to about his problems and didn't come to you? Gosh, no matter how understanding you are, this would have to bother you.

equus

When I reach perfect (okay stop laughing now) I'll know the pefect answer to that. But I hope I would think hard about the intentions behind what I did or said and not lose compassion - I hope that for me too, because when that happens I get hurt.

Like I said to shutterbug - we don't get a whole picture here so I can't compare it to the more complete picture I have at home. However when D got way out of balance last week he did hand our phone number to people in town, I have no idea whther they were male or female, thankfully none have rung! The morning after he wanted me to answer any calls to pretend it was the wrong number! He doesn't understand what happened, made no attempt to hide it, was worried by it, told his doc and guess what? Still no help or treatment.

Just tread lightly.

Pick-a-name

Yes; I think that is the best advice.

ASpouse

equus, I'm only using you as an example. I do not really know what is going on with you or D, but I do know that you have found a program or solution, if you will, that helps you both and works for you. That is the way it's supposed to be.

I KNOW if I found out my husband was cyberchatting with someone like Ryan is with Jenna, I'd first not understand and then I'd probably really do some serious physical harm to him and then perhaps have a dog or two hold him to the ground while I smushed his face with my shoe and I train the dogs, so I know they will hold him down on command LOL.

But in all seriousness, I am not a violent person but I can tell you I'd be very hurt if he did this, even with knowledge of it and secondly I'd really look closely at our relationship and find out why he feels the need to speak to someone else about such personal things.

equus

The first rule is harm no-one and even such a simple thing can be a struggle sometimes!!

Judy - maybe a animal training story will make more sense of what I'm trying to say.

My boss once told me that most problems happen when the horse doesn't do as the rider expects, the problem then is that the rider forgets how to behave and also starts behaving 'badly', horse and rider then worsen each other and 'Viola' a much bigger problem.

The same boss taught me to hold strong horses using baling twine instead of reins. He used to shout (I'll remove swearing) 'You've got a *** iron bar in the horses mouth - if you don't want to shred your hands - DON'T pull - if you want to shred his mouth feel free - it'll hurt you just as much.'

He said Ride Right - when the horse misbehaves don't forget your own discipline - keep riding right and the horse will come right, if you say it's impossible because the horse is............ you need to get off and learn to frigging ride.'

It's certainly true, I've had many bad rides when I've been sucked into the horses behaviour but when I've held my own discipline and my own behaviour it works every time.

Both these posters have said they are vulnerable - who am I to think otherwise? I think treading lightly is right so I won't let my judgement or imagination change that.

ASpouse

equus,

I understand the horse story and I train dogs, starting slow, baby steps if you will. I let them fly, on their own, when I am confident that the dog will obey me or be right, as in the horse story.

Now what I said above has nothing to do with anything in this thread, however being suspicious by nature, I find it odd that now that Jenna says she's vulnerable, in the beginning post she didn't. It's funny how we humans become vulnerable when we are confronted with something. Oh well, that's just me being suspicious and a very good read on people.

equus

Judy - suspicion no bad thing in itself as long as it doesn't remove all compassion or too quickly become fact in our minds. No doubt as a dog trainer you've seen the results when someone loses compassion for a dog? - even when it has done wrong we who've worked round animals and people working with animals have all seen the results when a trainer lets frustration take away compassion.

I believe it's the same with people - all living things. They may do wrong but if we lose our sense of their needs, or of their whole self and only see the wrong then we risk behaving badly.

I'm only suggesting that we second check our motives, what we are intending before we finally add the response. I've often found myself hitting the delete key - and I've regretted posts sometimes when I haven't looked or thought. Including one I sent to you where you had made a genuine mistake and I didn't bother to think that might be the case - I'm sorry for that (and that this sorry is long overdue!). We all live and learn...

Cap3

Hey Shutterbug,your question,who wouldnt fall in love with this one....I wouldnt.Having no relfection on him,who he is or anything else.All i know is that he is a person,human.And,people,,,,cannot fill that hole in my soul.People,can only tempory give me that happiness/help that i search for inside.And its tempory at best.For they are only human,and can only go so far.They cannot heal me.That deep down area,that only God can go in another.But the true,ever-lasting healing that i seach,for is with God.Only He can fill that void.My relationship with Him,fills my heart,my soul.And folks that are in my life,are a bonus,to the happiness,that i already am having inside of myself,with my relastionship with Him..Happiness is an inside job.And its my own responsibility to have happiness,joy in my life.This has been my experince..
Now all that judgeing you are talking about,,ho,,hum.I see things and folks not as they are..but as i am,and where im coming from in da moment.Its all in my own perception..All i need do is stop trying to control others.Hard one,but not impossible,as im living in the 12 steps.The 12 steps never mention,that i need to tell others,how to act,or to change them,in any way.Live and let live...Its about changing myself..They have a right to be everything that they have chosen to be,just like me....smile...Keeping my side of the street clean.Where have i thrown judgements towards others?This is for my own recovery,to take notice,of what im doing,.How im responding towars others.I am the problem,not others.Progresss never perfection...But keeping the focus on my recovery,no matter what...
Thanks for letting me share,
God Bless,take care!!!!!!!!

FriendofBill

Shutterbug,

Have you ever thought of therapy?

Anyone who becomes obsessed with an unseen, married man has a problem, imho.

Good luck

ASpouse

Quick and to the point FoB ... maybe someday I'll learn to be that way ;-)

emily33

If I were in a healthy relationship is it normal for me to be able to have close bestfriend relationship with the opposite sex?

Shutterbug

My H had an emotional affair with a co-worker, my H said they were friends, she invited us to do things with her and her family. (married too)

We were on vacation to our usual spot every year, he mentioned her, said that she was up there at the same time as we were.

My H didnt let me know that he was as close to her as he was. He didnt tell me she was his best friend at work, and they talked together all the time. I knew of her!

I dont know for sure and never will who went over the line first, but it was stepped over. Supposedly not sexually, but in my opinion a kiss is sexual, just because you dont have intercourse doesnt mean it wasnt sexual. They both claim, no intercourse, but to me what is more intimate is before intercourse. He put her first, I would be sitting down on the couch, helping the kids with whatever, or just relaxing and he would be on the phone with her, I picked up the phone at one point and he yelled for me to get off of it, I questioned who it was he said he sister, a red flag I should have caught but didnt.

IMO those e-mails were not of friendship nature, If my H was talking to another women like that on e-mail, I would take a sledge hammer to every computer in my home, just to feel better.

Cynay

Wow... this is quite the thread.

Jena... your welcome, and no my name does not start with a N or T. When I posted that I told you that what I was posting was not the worse of all that happened.... That is true, though Im not going to go into the rest of it let me just tell you the damage done was VERY deep on all levels and not only to me, my daughter but Im sure his side of the family too. I try not to think about what his wife went through.... I honestly did not "MEAN" for that friendship to develope like it did...I really believed what he was telling me.... but let me point out a few things that are so similiar.

1.. In Church, AA, Al-anon and most therphy they will tell you..... Men minister to Men and Women to Women. Is there any doubt in your mind why this is a classic rule???

Look what is happening in your ministering to each other for your bi-polor.... you have fallen in love with this man. He is giving you the same message.... Please dont try to convience yourself this is a sister/friend type of love because you have stated that you want this for yourself... If you feel "in love" and have asked how to back away from this because you are afraid of being hurt... that is the little voice inside that you should trust.

2. You said that he is not trying to play the "Savior" role.... yet instead of letting you work through this, (because it is your issue to work through) he has come on the board and defended you.

Not only on the thread but PMing individuals and telling them what he would like to "physically" (physically abusive) do to them, and cussing (verbally abusive) at them. You came to this place for advice, yep sometimes people can be harsh in how they sound, but it is up to you to take what you need and leave the rest... you are taking it too personally and it is a choice.... if you wanted you dont even have to come back here are read. My point being.... this was about YOU, your reaching out for advice and he came in and "saved" you (or tried) ... You already have a 'savior" you dont need another one.

3. Do not covent thy neighbors wife.

If your looking for scripture to help direct you... try that one. You have said that you are "in love" with him, that you want that for yourself.... You have not done this alone, in his e-mails he is doing it right along with you. He may say he only loves you as a friend, but several times he hints to what is much deeper.... Sorry but lust is not only about wanting someone physically, lust is a mental/emotional state.

4. He is Bi-polar and as such has to be struggling with the balance as much as you are.

Please, understand.... I dont pretend to know how you feel, the emotion that goes on ... but what I do hear is someone that is sick and hurting from deep emotional wounds... who is doing everything in her power to become healthy. ALL of us on this board are working on that. We all have different communication styles and strengths and weekness... but I dont think anyone here is out to cause you harm. We have no motive to do that. Ryan has every motive to do whatever it takes to maintain your "friendship" because you are also filling a void in him.

5. He stated in one of his posts (correct me if Im wrong) that he WOULD NEVER do that to his wife, but also said that she is the only family he has, and HE ALMOST LOST HER because of something similiar to this????

You know I would have bet my life that the man I had that affair with loved me ... that I was special (I so needed to feel that) that I was the only one. Well I was dead wrong... and should have seen it. He was doing that to his wife, so it was not just me but later I found messages to another girl, she even sent him a topless pic. I know one thing .... If Im not healthy (I was not then) It is IMPOSSIBLE for me to make healthy decisions.... now dont get me wrong I can point out red flags in everyone elses relationships, but when it comes to mine the emotion blinds me... maybe that is true for you too? I COMPLETELY understand that need your talking about, the difference is you are at the begining of what I have already gone through.... Maybe yours is different, but I would not bet my life on it.... and that sounds like what your doing, hanging on by a thread and that thread is worn (married and bi-polar) and will not support you. If it were me I would grab for the rope.... its right next to the thread only its not sugar coated and does not feel as good.

PLEASE TAKE WHAT YOU WANT AND LEAVE THE REST. DO NOT TAKE IT PERSONALLY. God Knows I have no place to lecture, judge or direct.... Im only giving you a way to look at things differently, and only giving you what you asked us to give.

ASpouse

I think Jenna is on to bigger and better things today. My gut feeling, this whole thing has been forgotten already.