Gabe

Good for you Minx, it IS a miserable place to be.
And we are the ones who choose to be there...or not.
In my way of thinking, life is too short and precious to go around bitter and angry about what is behind us.
Kind of like driving and always looking in the rear view mirror.
You're bound to crash into something eventually.

dax

Minx and Cynay- I still see a lot of ' trying to justfiy' for an unacceptable situation.You went bowling and had dinner while he was still married? Now this was fine if your exbf was along-otherwise-not! If the ex wife sees you as the ow - well where their is smoke there is fire. She may be forever angry and be as mean as you say but you have put yourself in the middle of a potential war. Just please take thing slowly.
I apologize about the 12 step thing. I thought you had done a lot of AA discussion with him and had seen and talked to him at meetings.
dax

OMGdess

Marriedtoit, sorry you are struggling with your situation. It takes a good person to look within as you are doing. I am working through so many things of mine own right now I couldn't be of much help to anyone. But my thoughts are with you.

I couldn't help but notice the posts by those who obviously are still not close to getting it. And let me just say, Dax... I don't mean you.

A spouses resentment is a "normal" (and you know I don't mean normal, normal) part of the whole A experience. It's another thing that needs to be addressed and dealt with...... mainly by the A.

I think it is the exception that "nothing is ever good enough" and should not be the first line of defense against the spouses.

I think it's one more thing the A needs to put on his/her list of amends. Helping the spouse or significant other dress the wounds inflicted and understanding that they may never completely heal. Checking on those wounds, and realizing they will always be vulnerable from then on. That is the plight of A. One more reason not to drink.

I've probably said enough...

Marriedtoit... don't beat yourself up. There are others here that can help you I'm sure.

OMGdess

Cap3

Hi,hmmm,wondering where you are understanding that the very first line of defence is actually the first,of enough is just not good enough..?And that this is actually a defence.Why would i ever need one?
it not a defence,at least for me.{shrugs shoulders}I dont have to defend.Thats not what making amends to another is about,defending myself,to another.This is how you are personally seeing this.And thats ok too.We can help others,yes,by all means.But not to allow another to make us the victims of our past,no.Continuing to be seduced by what is over and cannot be changed.We cannot fix the alcoholic...The alcoholic cannot fix another either.To let go,let God,for only God can heal that spiritual wound.I cannot do this no matter what i do,or how i try.And no from my own experice,and of course everyone is different,here,i have no wounds from my past,and present..Forgiveness has been my answer to this.I chose to let it all go.You may understand this poat as a defence,but its not.I know that online another cannot see,my expressions,see me.Just making myself clear,on what im sharring.To each their own,really,,,,.If one choses,misery,thats their choice.When one choses to heal,they will find ways to do this.I cannot make this decsion for another.Im powerless...Step one.

Cap3

Am re-reading my above post.saw that i typed poat,,hehehee.Im gonna leave it there,,lol

Cynay

Im not making excuses or trying to be defensive. I honestly dont feel there is anything wrong with what Im doing or how I see it. I had a lightbulb moment on a view I have never seen before, the view from the A's side of it and how much of a struggle it is for them to make amends... also how sometimes it does not matter how hard they try, the person that was hurt does not want to heal and therefore the A could never completly make amends. I can now understand why the A would walk away from it, there is no reason somone should be "beat up" the rest of their lives for their mistakes.

In my relationship with Mr. R.... I spent time with Them, bowling etc with him his wife and my ex-abf ... we starting doing things together AFTER he made the decision to end his marriage. Im only explaining this because of respect for people on this board, not to make excuses, defend myself. If others here or his ex want to make judgement calls or point fingers... that is ok with me, I know what happened and the steps that lead us to where we are, I walked through it not only with my sponsor... but others as well so I was not making codi decisions and could make sure I was seeing it for what it really is.

Im very happy with my growth, Im much more peaceful with my ex-abf and what he must also be going through and Im even starting to have compassion for him. Im totally seeing what I contributed to that failed relationship, the "crazies" that I was doing and how warped my thinking was when I was in the heat of it. I could make amends to him as well, no I did not cheat on him, lie to him but I was NOT very loving or giving at that point and I can see my behavior for what it was.... My Part. But best of all I can forgive myself, make amends and find peace in all of this... and in forgiving myself for my crazy behavior ... well then one day maybe I will be able to forgive him too.

earlybird

Firstly,...he didnt get off so easy. If he is anything at all like the average recovering alcoholic, he was, and probably still is, very, very sorry as well as embarrassed of how badly he treated you and feels terrible about all the crap he has put you through. The ONLY thing he can do to make it right is to do the next right thing and stay sober. He cannot go back and undo whats been done. Ask yourself this.......what is it going to do to your relationship to "get him back" for what you are harboring major resentments about other than HURT your relationship?? If you cant get past these things, then why stay married? Twenty years is way too long to hold on to these resentments. Maybe talk to a therapist. From your story, it seems your husband treats you with respect, and kindness and loves you very much. I would cherish that rather than lash out and harm him. Also,...its VERY common for people to want to force a relapse to get the chaos back into their lives subconsiously. Without even realizing it. Have you ever just gotten a new car and the gas cap is on the left and your old cars cap was on the right? And you are fully aware of that fact yet still pull up to the pump on the right from time to time? Its instinct. Its familiar. You do it without thinking. Same principle here. You are used to years of let downs, fights, hoping, resentment, anger, and hardship and embarrassment. Why would you even think that those old behaviors couldnt sneak back without being detected? Sobriety is a journey. Be ON IT with him. So dont laugh off that therapists theory. It could be dead on.

dax

Cynay - it is much easier to forgive if you have have found happiness. You have a new man in your life so you are on a pink cloud. Pray you new man's ex wife finds some one new to love. it will be easier for her to move on. I gather you and this man have not attended meetings together? Do they have a chapter 9 meeting in the area. You might enjoy find it interesting. dax

dax

Early bird - Marriedtoit is not the one still mad after 20 years. It is the ex wife of Cynay's new boyfriend that is still angry.
Just staying sober is not in my opinion a blanket amend here. The recovered alcoholic needs to treat those he has harmed with love, respect and fidelity. He is staying sober for himself not others. And each person is different. Some alcoholics want to get out of any and all resonsibilities for past wrong. Plus they were stoned a good deal of the time and are somewhat clueless to how awful they treated their loved ones. I did not have any problem forgiving all my husband did while drinking= probably because he didn't cheat, beat or kill anyone. dax

earlybird

Does THIS sound like shes not mad about it still???

marriedtoit

Earlybird,

Actually, I'm not. Yes AH cheated on me before we were married but there were a lot of contributing factors and I even share responsibility. AH had asked me to marry him at least a dozen times during the years we were dating and when I always responded with a "no" he started to ask me to move in with him. Again my answer was always "no". The rejection he felt was overwhelming. He felt I wasn't as committed to our relationship as he was and he was probably right. I do know that my AH loves me deeply and truly feels guilty for this indiscretion. This is no longer an issue in our relationship and that's why I was upset with myself for bringing it up. I know I mentioned this just to hurt him and I didn't know why. That was the reason for my post. I was trying to find out why I would intentionally try to start something and if this was a normal way to feel.

Zoey

marrirdtoit... Why in the world did you finally marry him??
From you saying "No "several times I get the feeling you were not in love.
You might just want out, being human we find fault so we can do this, and if can find fault not feel quilty.
Honesty, is best.
My niece married because she thought she would never get another chance. Divorced.
Some thought every one should be married. Divorced.
Some married a nice man because they had a extreme drive to have childern. Unhappy.
Sorry to say these things, but I think you want to figure this out.
Life too short to be unhappy.

Cynay

Im guilty of being more comfortable in the chaos then in the peace. I lived it chaos for a very long time and that was what I was use too... it was hard for me to accept a peaceful life... I know that sounds weird but it true. I also struggle with deserving a peaceful/loving life. Not always sure why this is, only that its a change that I have to work on everyday.

Dax - I do pray for her every night... I think sometimes people stay in a awful marriage/relationship because its safe and its what they know. Sometimes people change and dont grow in the same direction... but I do know from my own experience that I would have stayed in my relationship with my ex-abf for alot longer if he did not end it. I dont think the new relationship has anything to do with my starting to forgive my ex-abf, I think it has more to do with going to the AA open meetings and listening to recovering A's .. listening to what they did, how they felt and realizing it really is a disease... Im not sure I was getting that part. Im not sure what a Chapter 9 meeting is, unless its part of the steps and the making amends. Mr. R has gone to an Al-anon meeting with me but no we dont go to meetings together.

I have to agree with Dax.... I dont think just being sober is all there is to making the amends, I do think you have to live it. But when I listen to the A's in the meetings, the ones that are really trying to work the steps and are honest with themselves and everyone... well it starts to bring compassion...Maybe forgiveness is not too far away, I will have to figure out the forgiving myself too, Lord knows Im not perfect either.

minnie

And that is why I would always suggest that us al-anon's go to some open AA meetings, or at the very least read the alcoholism/AA forums here. We have had some wonderful AA speakers invited to share at our meetings and we have joint meetings when our venue is closed in the holidays. I certainly have compassion for those who are truly working their recovery and I am only able to recognise those who are by hearing recovering AA's share.

Clancy - you make some very good points and I need to remember those if/when I start dating again. At 32, I feel my biological clock ticking somewhat, but must remember that it's not the be all and end all.

Cap3

Forgiveness is a gift that you give to.....yourself....In this way you are free...

dax

Cynay- Cynical dax here. Now when you are hearing all these stories from the recovering alcoholics and how honest they are and working the steps. You really don't know what is REALLy going on back at home. My husband was though t to be Mr religious, upstanding spiritual person all the while he was having the affair. He has gone to a step meeting every Mon night for 27 years. He lied to everyone including the counselor. Chapter 9 meetings are also called-'the family afterwards' based on the chapter in the Big book. They are for alcoholics and any friend or family member Now AA often will not list these meetings because God forbide you have a couple leading the meetings- an Alanon and a AAer. And a lot of deeper seated problems are revealed in these. I have seen meetings where the husband and wife were arguing as they led the meeting. dax

dax

marriedto it- I feel that non addicted survivors in a recovering alcoholic marriage often suffer true post tramatic stress syndrome. Even when the recovering alcoholic is treating you with love and respect. it is going to take years of good treatment -and I think professional counseling to get rid of the anger. And even when you have forgiven a wrong, the memory of it will still hurt at times and-you might strike out. An apology to the one yelled at is in order. If I do this to my husband, I apologise. But I also tell him- I can not promise it will not happen again. The hurt is still there and always will be to some extent. Now he if lies in the present time- he is going to get both barrels with no apology. And then I let it go because I am thru wasting energry being mad at him. I have too many wonderful things going on. dax

marriedtoit

[QUOTE=Clancy46]marrirdtoit... Why in the world did you finally marry him??
From you saying "No "several times I get the feeling you were not in love.
QUOTE]

Clancy46,

I married him because I loved him. The reason I said "no" for so many years was because I was young and getting an education and building a career were more important to me at the time. I had very specific goals and living in his apartment or renting were never options for me. I wanted to buy a house right away. And being raised in a strict Catholic home, I certainly didn't want to live with him. I always knew we'd get married. It was just a matter of when. AH just got tired of waiting for me and I don't blame him.

GettingBy

Hey Dax,

I have one quick, but very serious question for you... How would YOU feel if your husband rubbed your nose in EVERY mistake you ever made? What if he constantly relived all of your past wrongs and something as simple as a cup of coffee was a reminder to him of something you did 20 years ago? Everytime he saw a coffee cup, or a Starbucks, he'd freak out on you. After a while, wouldn't you start to be afraid of coffee too? But then he could just look at you and say, "Sorry, but you did this to me."

Somewhat of a silly example, I know, but my point is this: I was much like you described. I use to flip out on my husband, give a half-hearted apology, but then say, 'Sorry but it's probably going to happen again.' I was basically doing the SAME thing an alcoholic does. "Sorry I drank, but it's probably going to happen again." Why? B/c they're alcoholics and that's what they do!

So it comes back to acceptance. I accept him as the alcoholic he is, and he accepted me as the crazy, vindictive woman I am. For me, that sucked. I hated to think of myself as a crazy vindictive mean-spirited person. I know I can be better than that, so that is what I focus on. My recovery, no one elses. In accepted my husband for who he is, I deal with the truth. The truth about what an alcoholics behavior is like, and I accept that only HE can change himself, not me. I have been able to let go of the hurt that I have experienced, and that has saved our marriage.

Some hurts, well, they are really hard to let go of, and I believe if you are in a relationship with pains so deep, at some point you have to just accept that it's not working.

My thought is that I should not intentionally inflict pain on my loved ones. I think giving someone "both barrels with no apology" is intentionally inflicted pain, and is behavior completely lacking of love or respect.

Is this really the marriage you want Dax? Only you can know for sure.

Take what you like and leave the rest,
Shannon

Cynay

Marri - What is it that your truely want now out of all of this?? Are you taking care of you?

Dax - WOW I did not even know those meetings existed... that sounds wonderful and I might just check that out if I hear of one. You know clancey is right the forgiveness is for me, it feels good to let go of some of these issues that I had, especially the cheating but I have to remember that he is sick. That was hard to do for me. My bestfriend's mother has alseimers (sp) and it kills my bestfriend that her mother is such a different person then she use to be. She does and says things now that are totally against her nature, hurtful things too. If I could remember that this is a disease, and he is sick, maybe I can let go of all of it. I think the biggest difference is .... I WANT to let go, I want to heal and I push for it every single day.

Your right that there are some up there that are not walking the walk, that maybe are not doing their best. I know preachers that are up there and they also are not walking the walk.... they are not living what they preach... but that does not mean I should toss out my faith, I just have to have faith that more are good/honest then bad.... accept that the bad apples are out there but enjoy the fruit that is healthy