Co dependence, dependence, independence.
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Co dependence, dependence, independence.
Below is a quote from the Dalai Lama, taken form his book - Ancient Wisdom, Modern World. Ethics For the new Millennium.
I was brought up with western philosophy. Through my childhood without it needing to be verbalised I knew independance was my supposed goal. At work although team work is discussed and takes place, it never 'out does' the drives of personal career paths and plans.
In my late 20's I travelled far too briefly to another land and met a different way of thinking. One thing that not so much changed but became more deeply rooted, was the effects of seeing others as somehow less human or wholy different from ourselves. I believe and still believe this is both wrong and harmful. Where labels create a different sense of humanity from the one we believe of ourselves we should challenge it, left unchallenged I believe it creates harm, both to others and ourselves.
The other thing that changed in me was any belief that independence should be my goal, instead my humanity is marked by both my dependence and my dependability - this was before D returned.
I have been since challenged to look at this as a sickness for which I need recovery. Yet my life now is so much richer than ever it was striving to be independent, the way I smile at people has changed, I've found strong community in many places (including SR), my friendships have strengthened, I have found what I truly believe is real love, I'm happier now than I was. I believe this is wher I fit - dependable and dependant, I have shared houses, cars, and computers long before I travelled, I gave my last car away to a friend. I am NOT sick.
Oh and the above book ROCKS!!
p.4
For my part, meeting innumerable others from all over the world and every walk of life reminds me of our basic sameness as human beings. Indeed the more I see of the world, the clearer it becomes no matter what our situation, whether we are rich or poor, educated or not, of one race, gender, religion or another we all desire to be happy and avoid suffering.
For my part, meeting innumerable others from all over the world and every walk of life reminds me of our basic sameness as human beings. Indeed the more I see of the world, the clearer it becomes no matter what our situation, whether we are rich or poor, educated or not, of one race, gender, religion or another we all desire to be happy and avoid suffering.
p.8.
The more or less universal ambition seems to be for everyone to own their own house, their own car, their own computer, and so on in order to be as independent as possible. Of course this is natural and understandable. The increasing autonomy that people enjoy as a result of advances in science and technology has it's good points. It is possible today to be far more independent of others than ever before. But with these developments, their has risen a sense that my future is not dependent on my neighbour but rather on my job, or, at most, my employer. This in turn encourages us to suppose taht because others are not important for my happiness their happiness is not important to me.
We have, in my view, created a society in which people find it harder and harder to show one another basic affection.
The more or less universal ambition seems to be for everyone to own their own house, their own car, their own computer, and so on in order to be as independent as possible. Of course this is natural and understandable. The increasing autonomy that people enjoy as a result of advances in science and technology has it's good points. It is possible today to be far more independent of others than ever before. But with these developments, their has risen a sense that my future is not dependent on my neighbour but rather on my job, or, at most, my employer. This in turn encourages us to suppose taht because others are not important for my happiness their happiness is not important to me.
We have, in my view, created a society in which people find it harder and harder to show one another basic affection.
In my late 20's I travelled far too briefly to another land and met a different way of thinking. One thing that not so much changed but became more deeply rooted, was the effects of seeing others as somehow less human or wholy different from ourselves. I believe and still believe this is both wrong and harmful. Where labels create a different sense of humanity from the one we believe of ourselves we should challenge it, left unchallenged I believe it creates harm, both to others and ourselves.
The other thing that changed in me was any belief that independence should be my goal, instead my humanity is marked by both my dependence and my dependability - this was before D returned.
I have been since challenged to look at this as a sickness for which I need recovery. Yet my life now is so much richer than ever it was striving to be independent, the way I smile at people has changed, I've found strong community in many places (including SR), my friendships have strengthened, I have found what I truly believe is real love, I'm happier now than I was. I believe this is wher I fit - dependable and dependant, I have shared houses, cars, and computers long before I travelled, I gave my last car away to a friend. I am NOT sick.
Oh and the above book ROCKS!!
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: uk
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Interdependence relies on a reciprocol relationship, where as being dependable doesn't (although I would always hope it is returned). Whether I would chose to narrow my dependability I'm not sure - perhaps I would, but if I saw an old lady fall in the street I know I would act in a dependable way and offer help, that would be unlikely to be reciprocated with that relationship. At the same time I have even asked for help where I can't return it - asking for directions, or asking a pub landlord to keep my number somewhere safe.
The above isn't limited to S/O relationships, to me it's very much about community as well. What I've found is that as I've changed my behaviour and become more open I seem to experience a huge amount of BACK where I didn't so much before. Right down to the owners of our local kebab shop drawing me a flower and writing my name in arabic - because I commented how beautiful a similar flower was on their wall!
In my relationship with D part of being dependable is to speak from the heart and to be careful that what I say IS from the heart. It guided my boundaries that I could be dependable both in sickness and in health but also that I would be honest and tell him I don't think I could offer that if the sickness was untreated through choice. Dependability is just as much a part of making boundaries that are REAL rather than intended to control another's behaviour.
The above isn't limited to S/O relationships, to me it's very much about community as well. What I've found is that as I've changed my behaviour and become more open I seem to experience a huge amount of BACK where I didn't so much before. Right down to the owners of our local kebab shop drawing me a flower and writing my name in arabic - because I commented how beautiful a similar flower was on their wall!
In my relationship with D part of being dependable is to speak from the heart and to be careful that what I say IS from the heart. It guided my boundaries that I could be dependable both in sickness and in health but also that I would be honest and tell him I don't think I could offer that if the sickness was untreated through choice. Dependability is just as much a part of making boundaries that are REAL rather than intended to control another's behaviour.
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Equus, I hear what you're saying and I'm sorry it took me so long to respond - snuck out for lunch with a friend.
I view interdependence on a wider scale, much like you describe. Reciprocity within the community, rather than one-one-one. I wouldn't like to be totally independent as I get so much from other people. Dependence is a big no-no for me. Giving and receiving in a virtuous circle makes so much more sense to me.
I view interdependence on a wider scale, much like you describe. Reciprocity within the community, rather than one-one-one. I wouldn't like to be totally independent as I get so much from other people. Dependence is a big no-no for me. Giving and receiving in a virtuous circle makes so much more sense to me.
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very good info here. I have for too long tried to be independent, and only end up going off the deep end the other way, all the while thinking that other people are dependent on me. Sick disease I say!
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When I realised there were whole cultures that never begin to bring their children up to be independent at first it made me nervous. With different people having different roles, but never one person providing all their needs for themself - it works though, I let go while I was there and allowed myself to feel it briefly.
Amongst the people I had got to know relationships got marked out in a way that was acceptable, usually males and females aren't friends but brother and sister is ok, so with the men I knew they were like my brother. It meant they watched out for me, offered to go with me wherever I wanted to go but also expected things back - like me wearing long skirts, and the expectation that I should give 'advice' to my younger brother. I took a huge risk and made other travellers think I was a fool - but I didn't gamble more than I could afford to lose.
Once I had friends I visited in a different way. I would take my spending money and put away what I needed for the hotel - then I would share the rest with the families I knew. I ended up on a 3 day road trip with the driver I knew, his friend, his wife, his son, his daughter, and his daughter's husband. the trip was on me but I travelled their way so it cost a fraction of the western style three day excursion.
While we went through my money quickly westerners said I wouldn't see these people once I ran out of cash - but I was curious enough to risk only spending money finding out. (my lodging, food and fare already paid). Guess what? As my funds grew smaller I no longer needed to eat in my hotel, I had constant invites to families and even family friends who took any excuse to BBQ! But there was more, much more I had learned more than the westerners so afraid of losing their cash and I started to get nmore back than they could buy with their cash in the first place. They had to pay for catamaran trips - I went out with prawn fisherman in a catamaran to photograph them at work - no charge of course. They had to eat anglisised hotel food - I ate dishes carefully made for my baby mouth - but beautiful, I tasted mango leaves as a vegatable. They copuld see the chefs cooking in the hotel - I was fed by Gistopa's Mum as she prepared and cooked the fish squatted by a pot over a fire in the sand, and I got to laugh at her vents at her cats who crowded for dropped bits.
There was only one way I could find out what would ACTUALLY happen, I gambled what I could afford to lose and gained more than I dreamt possible.
One thing clinched it for me. A man with Down Syndrome came to tea at Gistopa's - he was carried there and wanted to do his impersonation of the pope. He and we all dressed up for the performance we had to sit and stand when he gestured and furnish him with home made props. This man wasn't able to walk, he had no 'carer' with him but it was no problem. It got explained to me he can't walk so when he wants to go somewhere he asks and someone carries him. I asked what happened if no-one would take him - but I got the same statement as an answer 'He can't walk so when he wants to go somewhere he asks and someone carries him'. I asked again what happened if no-one had time to take him - I got told again he can't walk - we must carry him. I realised in my country whatever stopped him from walking would probably have been corrected, he would have a carer and everything would be done to give him independence. But how would he ever be as free as the man I met? The guy who could decide to put on a performance at the drop of a hat and have everyone agree? I saw as soon as he was ready to go he asked with absolute confidence and was carried straight away by 2 men to where he wanted to go.
I got on a plane, came back to the UK - but to this day I can't seem to really manage to come home in attitude, I saw something and it was anything but sick.
Amongst the people I had got to know relationships got marked out in a way that was acceptable, usually males and females aren't friends but brother and sister is ok, so with the men I knew they were like my brother. It meant they watched out for me, offered to go with me wherever I wanted to go but also expected things back - like me wearing long skirts, and the expectation that I should give 'advice' to my younger brother. I took a huge risk and made other travellers think I was a fool - but I didn't gamble more than I could afford to lose.
Once I had friends I visited in a different way. I would take my spending money and put away what I needed for the hotel - then I would share the rest with the families I knew. I ended up on a 3 day road trip with the driver I knew, his friend, his wife, his son, his daughter, and his daughter's husband. the trip was on me but I travelled their way so it cost a fraction of the western style three day excursion.
While we went through my money quickly westerners said I wouldn't see these people once I ran out of cash - but I was curious enough to risk only spending money finding out. (my lodging, food and fare already paid). Guess what? As my funds grew smaller I no longer needed to eat in my hotel, I had constant invites to families and even family friends who took any excuse to BBQ! But there was more, much more I had learned more than the westerners so afraid of losing their cash and I started to get nmore back than they could buy with their cash in the first place. They had to pay for catamaran trips - I went out with prawn fisherman in a catamaran to photograph them at work - no charge of course. They had to eat anglisised hotel food - I ate dishes carefully made for my baby mouth - but beautiful, I tasted mango leaves as a vegatable. They copuld see the chefs cooking in the hotel - I was fed by Gistopa's Mum as she prepared and cooked the fish squatted by a pot over a fire in the sand, and I got to laugh at her vents at her cats who crowded for dropped bits.
There was only one way I could find out what would ACTUALLY happen, I gambled what I could afford to lose and gained more than I dreamt possible.
One thing clinched it for me. A man with Down Syndrome came to tea at Gistopa's - he was carried there and wanted to do his impersonation of the pope. He and we all dressed up for the performance we had to sit and stand when he gestured and furnish him with home made props. This man wasn't able to walk, he had no 'carer' with him but it was no problem. It got explained to me he can't walk so when he wants to go somewhere he asks and someone carries him. I asked what happened if no-one would take him - but I got the same statement as an answer 'He can't walk so when he wants to go somewhere he asks and someone carries him'. I asked again what happened if no-one had time to take him - I got told again he can't walk - we must carry him. I realised in my country whatever stopped him from walking would probably have been corrected, he would have a carer and everything would be done to give him independence. But how would he ever be as free as the man I met? The guy who could decide to put on a performance at the drop of a hat and have everyone agree? I saw as soon as he was ready to go he asked with absolute confidence and was carried straight away by 2 men to where he wanted to go.
I got on a plane, came back to the UK - but to this day I can't seem to really manage to come home in attitude, I saw something and it was anything but sick.
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Join Date: May 2004
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Thanks for sharing that, Equus, it was beautiful. To me, that is interdependence in action and wonderfully illustrated.
To take the eg of the Down's boy - co-dependence would be where one person gave up all of their own life to carry him around.
To take the eg of the Down's boy - co-dependence would be where one person gave up all of their own life to carry him around.
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