Opinions please
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: over the rainbow
Posts: 487
Opinions please
[/QUOTE]
anybody want to comment on the validity of these particular statements. i think it is a link on these pages. What stuck out to me was the thing about "you are all they have left!" and "they must depend on you to help them" and "they are on a suicide mission".
now is this a scare tactic? enabling? or this really valid?
Bruce W. Cotter and Associates, Inc.
You are probably reading this because someone in your life abuses alcohol or other drugs, legal or illegal and, until now, all attempts to help them have failed.
It is critical to understand the risk of delaying help. They may damage, often severely, their ability to process what is taking place around them. This includes their capacity to comprehend treatment for their illness. If you wait for them to “hit bottom,” one of two things will happen, they will either bounce back or they go splat! Do not wait to find out which it will be. They are unable to self-diagnose their illness; they must depend on you to help them.
Tragically, drug and alcohol use is accompanied by negative emotions. They are confused, paranoid, guilty, angry and depressed. As they exist in this vulnerable state, anything can happen, none of which is positive. They risk falling and suffering serious injury, being arrested for driving while impaired and/or buying or possessing an illegal substance.
They alienate, or lose, their spouse and family, as well as their livelihood. As these emotions and events blanket the person, the depression intensifies and so does the risk of suicide. When viewed honestly, their lifestyle is suicidal.
Although our paths may never cross, I respect your efforts to help someone unable to help him or herself. Do not wait or quit on them, you may be all they have left.
You are probably reading this because someone in your life abuses alcohol or other drugs, legal or illegal and, until now, all attempts to help them have failed.
It is critical to understand the risk of delaying help. They may damage, often severely, their ability to process what is taking place around them. This includes their capacity to comprehend treatment for their illness. If you wait for them to “hit bottom,” one of two things will happen, they will either bounce back or they go splat! Do not wait to find out which it will be. They are unable to self-diagnose their illness; they must depend on you to help them.
Tragically, drug and alcohol use is accompanied by negative emotions. They are confused, paranoid, guilty, angry and depressed. As they exist in this vulnerable state, anything can happen, none of which is positive. They risk falling and suffering serious injury, being arrested for driving while impaired and/or buying or possessing an illegal substance.
They alienate, or lose, their spouse and family, as well as their livelihood. As these emotions and events blanket the person, the depression intensifies and so does the risk of suicide. When viewed honestly, their lifestyle is suicidal.
Although our paths may never cross, I respect your efforts to help someone unable to help him or herself. Do not wait or quit on them, you may be all they have left.
anybody want to comment on the validity of these particular statements. i think it is a link on these pages. What stuck out to me was the thing about "you are all they have left!" and "they must depend on you to help them" and "they are on a suicide mission".
now is this a scare tactic? enabling? or this really valid?
Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 3,054
I think it if it is possible to be open and honest with another person - go for it! But if after having done that you start to feel responsible for their choices, that it's your fault for not convincing them the ground starts to get rocky. If your help removes consequences that is different from simply telling someone what you feel about their drinking. If you attempt to force someone into getting help, that's different from passing a number to them. If you set a boundary to make them get help, that's different from setting a boundary to protect your own mental and physical health.
If you add to a persons mental distress in order to act as an aversive it can backfire bigtime. Aversives become less powerful each time they are used and addiction has it's own powerful aversives when someone tries to give up. The difference is that the aversive the addiction has on offer will increase with the addiction where as the aversive given by distressing someone doesn't; they simply become more switched off to the distress.
The above seems to me to be missing the line of responsibility - ie that it IS NOT the responsibility of anyone else to 'save' someone addicted. However that doesn't mean we have to do nothing to help - it all depends.....
If you add to a persons mental distress in order to act as an aversive it can backfire bigtime. Aversives become less powerful each time they are used and addiction has it's own powerful aversives when someone tries to give up. The difference is that the aversive the addiction has on offer will increase with the addiction where as the aversive given by distressing someone doesn't; they simply become more switched off to the distress.
The above seems to me to be missing the line of responsibility - ie that it IS NOT the responsibility of anyone else to 'save' someone addicted. However that doesn't mean we have to do nothing to help - it all depends.....
Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Windy City Burbs
Posts: 101
Definitely intervention. Now don' tget angry but I must admit I struggle with this sometimes. Couldn't waiting be worse? But then if the A is not ready it could be the end of everything. What are we to do? Act in their best interest? Or tough it out? This of course raises all kinds of issues. What are we trying to control? Then take it for what it could be. This guy wants job security or is he that altruistic? He must love my husband more than me if he is willing to risk him becoming angry. But then again I'm so sick with codependency I don't understand healthy peopl at all.
J
J
the girl can't help it
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: splendraville
Posts: 5,599
I don't know, I've been involed in probabbly 20 or more interventions with family and close friends, 3 of them with the same person. My H is the only one of them clean so far but I mean I had to tell him either get clean or I would call the law everytime he left the house as well as kick him to the curb.
I think an intervention gives hope to the people planning them. I myself give up I mean I hope to God my loved ones will stop killing themselves. I have decided to stop killing myself with worry over them...well kinda..I still am concerned. Standing in the gap in prayer makes more sence to me now.
I think an intervention gives hope to the people planning them. I myself give up I mean I hope to God my loved ones will stop killing themselves. I have decided to stop killing myself with worry over them...well kinda..I still am concerned. Standing in the gap in prayer makes more sence to me now.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 727
Hey EA,would be intersting if this was posted on the alcoholism form also i think.To get alcoholics experiences,thoughts and opinions on this topic,too.Can't force anyone do to anything that they don't want to do,or are not agreeable with.Short of locking folks up,All the helping won't change another,until they are willing.,open for this help.Ive tried with many,family members.Using all kinds of different ways to help.Never worked.I felt guilty.,for a while till it passed.I felt that there was something missing in me,that i couldn't help another.I was wrong.For the truth is a man turned against his own will,is of the same opinion still.And i was right too.For i being a human being cannot cure another person.Can't make them want for better.I am powerless,over anothers healing inside of themselves.The willingness comes from inside of them.
Great topic,thanks for letting me share,
God Bless,take care!!!!!!!!...Just wanted to add,that i had Doctors involved also with some family members,seeking proofessional help.This did not work either,for they were not willing nor wanting,the help.
Great topic,thanks for letting me share,
God Bless,take care!!!!!!!!...Just wanted to add,that i had Doctors involved also with some family members,seeking proofessional help.This did not work either,for they were not willing nor wanting,the help.
Last edited by Cap3; 08-02-2005 at 06:49 AM. Reason: adding to post.
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Starting over all over again
Posts: 4,426
>> ...now is this a scare tactic? enabling? or this really valid?
IMHO this is just an advertisement for the services of an independent "interventionist". In my experience as an alcoholic and once sober with many years as a therapist in various large hospitals I have participated in many interventions. Around several hundred. This advertisement has to be taken in the context of a guy trying to sell you something, just like they try to sell you a used car.
>> ... They are unable to self-diagnose their illness; they must depend on you to help them.
Well, no. That's completely mis-leading. _Nobody_ can self-diagnose unless they are a physician with a relatively mild disease. Alcoholics know they have a problem, we just find it easier to blame it on somebody else. No, we must _not_ depend on anybody else, it's the easy access of other people who are willing to protect us from the consequences of our own actions that allows us to continue using and abusing everything around us. We alkies must depend on _us_ to learn how to get and stay sober.
>> ... Do not wait or quit on them, you may be all they have left.
No, that's not completely right either. Us alkies are particularly good manipulators, and it's really easy to walk into a bar and hook up with some bar-fly who will put us up for a month or two. There's no shortage of un-treaded co-dependents in the world. What you are not supposed to quit on is _you_. It is your own sanity that you have to protect, what you're not supposed to wait on is going to meetings of Al-Anon and learning as much as you can about the disease and how it's affecting you.
Whadya think?
Mike :-)
IMHO this is just an advertisement for the services of an independent "interventionist". In my experience as an alcoholic and once sober with many years as a therapist in various large hospitals I have participated in many interventions. Around several hundred. This advertisement has to be taken in the context of a guy trying to sell you something, just like they try to sell you a used car.
>> ... They are unable to self-diagnose their illness; they must depend on you to help them.
Well, no. That's completely mis-leading. _Nobody_ can self-diagnose unless they are a physician with a relatively mild disease. Alcoholics know they have a problem, we just find it easier to blame it on somebody else. No, we must _not_ depend on anybody else, it's the easy access of other people who are willing to protect us from the consequences of our own actions that allows us to continue using and abusing everything around us. We alkies must depend on _us_ to learn how to get and stay sober.
>> ... Do not wait or quit on them, you may be all they have left.
No, that's not completely right either. Us alkies are particularly good manipulators, and it's really easy to walk into a bar and hook up with some bar-fly who will put us up for a month or two. There's no shortage of un-treaded co-dependents in the world. What you are not supposed to quit on is _you_. It is your own sanity that you have to protect, what you're not supposed to wait on is going to meetings of Al-Anon and learning as much as you can about the disease and how it's affecting you.
Whadya think?
Mike :-)
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Faith without works is dead
Posts: 26
Is this an advertisement for his business? Sounds like he is playing on the co-dependents fear, distorted thinking, and illusion of control:
Im not waiting for anything with the A. The A's sobriety is between the A and HP. I am powerless. I am keeping the focus on myself.
This is not healthy thinking. Its the all-or-nothing/black-or-white thinking my sponsor warned me about. I was taught to live somewhere in the gray.
Whenif the A is ready to diagnose their illness, they will. I am powerless.
Also, I am not the HP of the A. They must depend on HP, not me.
They do risk these injuries, but it is their risk. I am powerless.
HP's job; not mine. My job is to take care of myself.
It is critical to understand the risk of delaying help. They may damage, often severely, their ability to process what is taking place around them. If you wait for them to “hit bottom...”
...one of two things will happen, they will either bounce back or they go splat!
They are unable to self-diagnose their illness; they must depend on you to help them.
Also, I am not the HP of the A. They must depend on HP, not me.
They risk falling and suffering serious injury, being arrested for driving while impaired and/or buying or possessing an illegal substance.
Do not wait or quit on them, you may be all they have left.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Faith without works is dead
Posts: 26
check this out:
HA!
http://www.speakermatch.com/keynotes.../871680240.htm
Sounds to me like hes trying to play God...
As an alanon, I know its unhealthy for me to react. However, I am angry at what this guy represents, as it goes against what I have learned in recovery. Before I began recovery, I might have believed it. I might have fallen for some of his "intimidating big businessman" crap; thinking he must be right/credible because he is so successful. Now, I know otherwise I am grateful for that.
I will remind myself yet again that I am powerless.
Im glad that there are places like meetings and this board (that are free) where I can work my program and recognize unhealthy behavior when I come across it- not to take others inventory, but to be aware for myself. I am powerless towards this guy and all the people who go to him for service.
Helping those who don't want help.
HA!
The strategies and options that keep corporate and political VIPs, athletes and entertainers clean and sober.
http://www.speakermatch.com/keynotes.../871680240.htm
Bruce Cotter rose to the trappings of senior management while sinking deeper into the trap of his own alcoholism. Today, Cotter, a recovering alcoholic, is the senior partner of Bruce W. Cotter and Associates, Inc., a national consulting firm, meeting the challenge of identifying, confronting, treating and remaining free from alcohol and drugs.
The firm's creed is simple: No matter how lost, hurt, or despairing a person may be, it doesn't have to be that way.
The firm's creed is simple: No matter how lost, hurt, or despairing a person may be, it doesn't have to be that way.
Bruce Cotter shares the strategies and options that keep his clients, athletes, entertainers, corporate and political VIPs as well as everyday people, clean and sober.
Cotter is an ongoing story source for CNN, Fox, ESPN, NY Times, Dallas Morning News, magazines, newspapers, radio and TV stations across the Country. He is the author of WHEN THEY WON'T QUIT.
Cotter is an ongoing story source for CNN, Fox, ESPN, NY Times, Dallas Morning News, magazines, newspapers, radio and TV stations across the Country. He is the author of WHEN THEY WON'T QUIT.
I will remind myself yet again that I am powerless.
Im glad that there are places like meetings and this board (that are free) where I can work my program and recognize unhealthy behavior when I come across it- not to take others inventory, but to be aware for myself. I am powerless towards this guy and all the people who go to him for service.
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Litterbox City
Posts: 5,691
thanks swanie - wonder how many poor unsuspecting folks get hooked into that - apparently enough that he has his own company, la de dah!
good responses from the crowd!
mike - you have such a way with words - but boy do they speak!
hugs - christie
good responses from the crowd!
No, that's not completely right either. Us alkies are particularly good manipulators, and it's really easy to walk into a bar and hook up with some bar-fly who will put us up for a month or two. There's no shortage of un-treaded co-dependents in the world. What you are not supposed to quit on is _you_. It is your own sanity that you have to protect, what you're not supposed to wait on is going to meetings of Al-Anon and learning as much as you can about the disease and how it's affecting you.
hugs - christie
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Faith without works is dead
Posts: 26
and another thing...
It has been my experience that we are all equal and that Alanon/AA know ALL walks of life- not just "corporate and political VIPs, athletes and entertainers."
Ugh.
I am powerless.
Thanks....
It has been my experience that we are all equal and that Alanon/AA know ALL walks of life- not just "corporate and political VIPs, athletes and entertainers."
Ugh.
I am powerless.
Thanks....
Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: DooDooville, USA
Posts: 453
WHoa! About the only thing I agree with in Bruce Cotter's writing is that drinking for the alcoholic is a suicide mission. Not that the A looks at it that way, but it is a day-by-day killing of one's self.
That's sad that he's playing on the sensitivity of the co-dependants. We do enough of a number on ourselves as it is, let alone a professional telling us that it more or less rests on us to help the A get help.
We KNOW that we can't make the A get help. They have to do that for themselves. We can set boundaries for them as to what we can handle and what we can't with their choice and to encourage them when they do go and get help (IF they do.)
whew! What some people will say to get you to put out $ for their business.
That's sad that he's playing on the sensitivity of the co-dependants. We do enough of a number on ourselves as it is, let alone a professional telling us that it more or less rests on us to help the A get help.
We KNOW that we can't make the A get help. They have to do that for themselves. We can set boundaries for them as to what we can handle and what we can't with their choice and to encourage them when they do go and get help (IF they do.)
whew! What some people will say to get you to put out $ for their business.
too much on my plate!!
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: not kissing frogs anymore
Posts: 646
Just like most businesses today, I'm sure he's saying these things to get people to pay big bucks for his services. And sadly enough, many people that don't know any better will do it.
Many people will say anything to get you to buy into what they are selling; in this case he is trying to sell sobriety...YEAH RIGHT!!!
We all know better then that!
Many people will say anything to get you to buy into what they are selling; in this case he is trying to sell sobriety...YEAH RIGHT!!!
We all know better then that!
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