CatsTail

Hi Walkingthe line,

Your a hasn't been sober all that long. He's not even out of the fog. He has no idea of the damage he has caused and he won;t until he has been sober for a long time. He actually shouldn't even attempt a fourth and fifth until he's been a year sober AT LEAST. To tell you the truth I feel that he's doing this fourth and fifth not for good reasons but to manipulate you. I don't feel it's sincere and I also feel that his sponsor contacting you like that is also wrong. Your A should be living the consequences of his actions which is a restraining order and the end of your relationship. He shouldn't have his sponsor delivering letters of MANIPULATION to you.

Hopefully you'll be able to get over your anger, I don't blame you for being angry you have a lot to be angry about. And on top of it he's giving you some childish, insincere fourth step letter.

Take care of yourself.

Ngaire

FriendofBill

Who the #U$(#&*^@%# is this guy's sponsor, and did he read that letter before offering to deliver it????

Hell's Bell's, that aint no ammend Ive ever heard of.

What a joke.....I cant suggest on how to reply cus Im so frickin' pissed-off by it myself..that and all the coffee I drank today..!

Damn, Irene, sorry for this turd dropping on your head. A test of your higher-power perhaps?...Keep calm, and keep on keepong on!

Girlfriend

Thanks, DanaNicole!! I try to live by that every day.

I read your initial post, walkingtheline, about the one night and what had happened to you.
First of all, I'm sorry that it happened. It's a shock and it's traumatizing. I don't know a whole lot about alot of things, but one thing I do know about is physical/mental abuse. Cuz I lived it every day for 8 years and then some.

When you were speaking about getting a knife and sticking it in his chest, it brought me back to a really scary incident/time in my life.

After we've been the victims of abuse for years, we can easily become the perpetrators and switch roles. After you've lived in that everyday, all day long.......you build up a wall to protect yourself and become really angry and numb to it all.

I remember fighting with my ex husband years ago and I was the drinker back then. We were standing at the top of the stairs and all of a sudden, I grabbed him by the shirt and the belt loops on his pants and THREW him down the 20 stairs. I watched him roll down them all and slump at the bottom, not moving. I was SO NUMB to it all and drunk at the time, that I didn't even care if he was alive or dead. I went back to bed and went to sleep.

About 1/2 an hour later, the police came and shined a flashlight in my eyes and told me that I was under arrest for assault. Like you said, if the police are called and someone's been hurt, the other person is going to jail whether or not the assaulted wants to press charges. In this case, the state pressed charges against me.(He was okay, his knee got banged up, but thank God that was it!)

I did 40 hours community service, paid a fine of $300 and was ordered to domestic violence therapy for 9 months. Plus, put on probation. In therapy, I learned the cycle of domestic violence and it's the same as alcoholism. There's a flare up and then the "honeymoon period" of "I'm sorry! I'll never do that again ....ever, I promise!" and BAM......it happens again.

Someone needs to stop that cycle and get help. If one wants to go and the other one doesn't.....then, that relationship is (or should be) ended. You can't be the only one working at the problem. It takes two.

I'm proud of you for leaving him. I'm proud that you didn't go back into the house and use the knife. Cuz, if you would've, you could be sitting in jail right now for a long time. He's not worth that AT all. To have you go to jail and become someone that you're not only becuz you've been pushed and pushed and pushed by an abuser.........it's SO not worth it. I thank God for the 9 months in domestic violence therapy. It taught me alot and I haven't been with an abusive man since then. I can smell the violent ones a mile away.

Here's a few characteristics of an abusive person (that I learned of):

1) Jealous

2) Possesive

3) obsessive

4) manipulating

5) control freak

if a person has ANY of those characteristics, there is a chance of physical abuse happening soon if it hasn't happened, yet. Once it starts, it's not gonna stop. It'll intensify.

Victim's Assistance organizations are really good at getting people help for that. Safehouses and women's shelters.

I hope that helps confirm even more that what you did and how you handled it was really well done. You got out of there. Good for you!

dax

Here is cynicial and blunt Dax's take on amends. they are for the alcoholic only- to have him let go of the guilt of all the horrible crap they have put loved one's through. To the one's harmed they are usually so anemic that they just make the one harmed madder. AA amends are a usually a bunch of crap if you are really expecting true sincerity. It is just to save the alcoholic's guilty hide so he can move on. And in tht respect it works. AA is a SELFISH self centered program. No care as to the rest of the family. Remember DENIAL is their brother. dax

CatsTail

Dax,

I was trying to think of a sane response to your post and all I could come up with is hopefully one day you'll deal with your anger issues and find peace for yourself not anyone else.

Ngaire

dax

Nagaire- I am sorry but this is how I feel about the 'amend' thing in AA. How many people on this site can say- Hey my recovered alcoholic made amends that made me feel like he was truely sorry. The amend making is solely for Mr Selfish alcoholic. In fact mine is one of the few where when he got sober, things got immediately better. But even then I thought- hey he is way short on the 'amend ' thing. He still doesn't have a clue[and to this day 26 years down the line] he doesn't on the pain and suffering he caused. He said'sorry' half ass wise and moved on. But he stayed sober so that in itself was an amend=till he had his AA affair. Then Mr Denial turned in =hoping I could just 'turn over '9 years of Cheating while in and after meeting. And ow sure wasn't going to make any amends- I asked. Still thought the program had some influence in the long time sober. IN MY CASE ONLY- I am stating it didn't. Are you alanon only are also in AA? dax

CatsTail

I'm in both Dax and wanted to say that when I did a fourth and fifth yes it did help to let go of a lot of the guilt I carried but it also helped those around me who I made amends too. And it also helped me to change my ways and become a better person so I wouldn't continue to repeat the same mistakes.

It all depends on the people we are and on the sponsors that we have in the program so I can't say as if the denial thing would be true for all A's in a program.

Ngaire

dax

I figured you were in both by your response. And you may THINK your amends helped others. But I see so much denial in the alcoholic to think things are 'ok' so they can move on, I am skeptical.But tell me- Did yoy say to these people. "What Can I do to make amends to you." Or did you just decide for ourself what amend was acceptable for YOU to give the ones you have harmed. ??????? dax

CatsTail

Well here Dax, as far as my ex-husband went the father of my son. When my ex was terminally ill in the hospital and at home for four months, I put aside all the resentments I had towards him and spent alot of time at both the hospital and his house taking my son for visits, taking in his dog and cat, feeding him in the hospital, spending alot of time there both with and without my son and being there with him the night that he died.

I made my amends both in I'm sorry .................. and in actions.

Sometimes we have the opportunity to actually DO something and other times it's a matter of SINCERELY acknowledging the wrongs we have done to others.
Sometimes it can be a matter of plain not doing it again. There are alot of different ways to make an amends.

Ngaire

walkingtheline

I agree. Amends can be actions. They can be words. But what they shouldn't be is an attempt to rationalize the hurtful event(s) or minimize someone else's feelings.

Personally, an "I'm sorry you were hurt by my actions" would have worked.

Oh well. I think I did the right thing for me. The RO stands.

CatsTail

Walkingtheline,

YOU DEFINITELY DID THE RIGHT THING. mINIMALIZING THE OTHER PERSONS FEELINGS Is NOT an amends. We can only concentrate on what we did and realize what we did and that it hurt another person and make the amends.

How the other person takes it or what they do with it is none of our business they are entitled to their reaction but we have no right to try and minimalize it to make ourselves feel better.

Ngaire

dax

Well here you are getting after me for my anger-which I know is not good for me-and you admit to having resentments still towards you ex as he lay dying. Which I would surely have but I don't go attacking others who are still angry. So let's admit we all have problems dealing with alcoholic abusiveness. And I bet you did this not so much for your ex but for you son. Was you ex also an alcoholic? dax

CatsTail

Sorry Dax, wasn't attacking you, don't take it that way. I originally said that I hope one day you get rid of your anger as it must be very draining on you.

You bet I also did it for my son, I could have been a jerk about it and used it to carry on old wounds but I didn't feel that my son needed that on top of everything else he was going through. I felt it was the sober way to behave.


As far as resentments towards my husband as he lay dying those were put aside very quickly at the beginning of things for the best of everyone concerned.

Ngaire

Beautiful

I think it also confirmed to the sponsor that his protege' had a long way to go in order to make it to the level of where he needs to be. Go girl!

Cap3

Well who knows eh?Might have bomed the first try in making amends.Im not saying that he did.My belief is that everyone does the best that they can,given their mental state.For myself too,i never did better till i learned better.Who knows again?That down line when he is more into recovery,that he won't try to make another amends to you.This time seeing his part only...Ya just never know.Remain open.Sick folks will never act and behave well,until they learn a different way.
And ,asking another how can i make amends?,to another sick person?To each their own really.Ive seen some al-anons keep the alcoholic hostage,for years.Saying,sorry wasn't enough.Changing their actions wasn't enough ....Nothing ...that the alcoholic can do and or say is just simply not "enough"...The club is forever over the alcoholic,s head.And, brought up again and again.The al-anon has been hurt,don't ya know,and the alcoholic is put into a position to never forget this.Its brought up all the time.Don't forget dear what you did,in 1959,sort of thing.Alcoholism is the family disease.Every member has played their part in all the sickness.
Forgivenss has always been the answer for me.Acceptance too.Folks will never do or say what i think that they should.But its simply not about them.Its about recovery.Let go,let God.
im sure some arrows will be thrown my way,,lol...

TheBeesKnees

hey Cap,

No arrows here. I think you are dead on. This is a family disease, and the recovery process is different for each of us. We've all been affected by it, and we all improve our lives if we choose a program of recovery.

from Courage to Change, July 14

I didn’t know how great a burden my guilt was until I made amends and gained release from it. I never wanted to face the harm I’d done in the past. Consequently, without knowing it, I carried guilt with me most of the time. Making amends has helped me to put the past behind me and move on with a clear conscience. My self-esteem has grown ever since, and I feel much better about myself.

But I had a problem. The person I felt I owed the most amends to is no longer living. Deep in my heart I knew she had understood and forgiven me, but I could not forgive myself for the harm I had done. How could I make amends?

After much prayer and thought, I realized that I couldn’t change the past. All I could do was to change my present behavior. Now, when I feel tempted to shirk a responsibility, I can remember my friend and reconsider my choice. Each time I talk to a newcomer, chair a meeting, or share my story, I am making amends to my friend.

Today’s Reminder

I can’t make past wrongs disappear, but I can take actions that will help me to let them go. When I make amends, I do what I can to correct the situation. Then I can put the past in its rightful place and leave it there.

“Let me remember that the reason for making amends is to free my own mind of uneasiness.”

The Dilemma of the Alcoholic Marriage

dax

Cap - forgive me but I have no sympathy for the alcoholic living with the alanon with the club over his head. His amends are probaly pathetic in her eyes. He is free to leave so living like that is his choice. Ah the great brotherhood of AA- always ready to put down the alanon. This man is not doing the best he can at the time. He is still in denial of the harm he has caused. l About the sick asking the sick- that is what AA is about. In my opinion, if a person wants to really make amends to someone they have harmed- asking how is the best way for healing. dax

Kahlia

I agree with Minx.....Will confronting this issue cause YOU more pain than you need at any point and it is worth it? Are you wanting to make things Ok with the ex or are you wanting a true apology. It sounds as if he is rationalizing everything about what has happened and that is HIS issue NOT yours. I hope that you can take this letter and find something in it that can give you what you need or want. IF you cannot......get rid of it and the rest of the things that go with it......I have had a letter like that and it just hurt me more......Kahlia...many Blessings to you........

Daffodil

You did "good too" Hugs!

Cap3

Hey Dax,ok i will bite,,lol...you say ah the great brotherhood of AA..Well actually im in both programs. Al-anon,and AA..I didn't know during ,my first years with these programs ,that im alcoholic,too.Both programs ,teach me ,what to do,about,,,MY resentments,MY,grudges,and what to do with these if i want to move on,with recovery.Ive recieved ammeds like the post above.And in the beginnings of my recovery i probably made some like the post above...lol..Until i learned a different way.To take full responsibility,for my own actions and words.I own this..And for me to learn how not to take responsibilty for how others feel.They own this..Ive also asked another how can i ever make this up to you,what can i do?They wanted me to be at their beck and call,no matter what i was doing.I was expected to go,run to them everytime,they called me..After all i said to them,in my past,who am i to even say no,to them,they said..Always reminding me how bad,bad,i was.Pushing the continued guilt towards,me for something that i could never change.My past happened..I eventually became resentful towards them and regreted even making ammends to them.,in the first place.Knew this was not good for me to think this way.Only to learn that i played my part ,in, letting this happen.They pushed the guilt and i recieved it.There was the problem.Not them but me.I teach others how to treat me by my own behaviour.I eventually let them go,.And worked on my resentments,here.For some folks there is just no forgiving,and moving onwards.Folks taking others hostage,because in the past they were hurt.Who hasnt been hurt?Who hasn't said or done hurtful stuff towards others?Who hasn't made ammends and it just wasn't accepted?Who hasnt done things to upset others?Ive had some folks say and do some awful things to me,too...If your human these things happen..Choices,Making ammends,and letting go,forgiving,and,onto a new way of life/or staying in the sickness,and hauling out all the,old,past, stuff against another forever.We all have choices,and the tools of recovery programs to help get past all that...stuff.This is what im wanting in my life.To let go,of all that stuff..Im not perfect.So i stoped expecting perfection from others.This helps make my life alot better.
Ok,im off my soap box,,,,
Thanks again for letting me share,my opinions,and experiences here,
God Bless,take care!!!!!!!!