Question on steps
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Question on steps
Question: Im not sure what step it is but the one that makes amends for all the hurt they have caused.
Tell me, is it fair to ask that if the A needs to do this he just send you a letter and let it go at that? How much of a difference does it make in his recovery to do it in person aposed to a letter?
Tell me, is it fair to ask that if the A needs to do this he just send you a letter and let it go at that? How much of a difference does it make in his recovery to do it in person aposed to a letter?
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Hi Cynay good question.Step 9.Made direct amends to such people wherever possible,except when to do so would injure them or others.
Good judgement,a careful sence of timing,courage,and prudence-these are the qualities we shall need when we take Step9.
There will be those who ought to be dealt with as soon as we become reasonably confident that the Alcoholic can maintain their soberiety.There will be those to whom we can make only partial restitution lest complete disclosures do them or others more harm than good.There will be other cases where action ought to be deferred and still others in which by the very nature of the situation,we shall never be able to make direct personal contact at all.The alcoholic cannot buy their own peace of mind at the expence of others...This is a very careful step,that includes others.Sponsors can help the alocholic out here,with this step.
Hope this helps...
God Bless,take care!!!!!!!!!!
Good judgement,a careful sence of timing,courage,and prudence-these are the qualities we shall need when we take Step9.
There will be those who ought to be dealt with as soon as we become reasonably confident that the Alcoholic can maintain their soberiety.There will be those to whom we can make only partial restitution lest complete disclosures do them or others more harm than good.There will be other cases where action ought to be deferred and still others in which by the very nature of the situation,we shall never be able to make direct personal contact at all.The alcoholic cannot buy their own peace of mind at the expence of others...This is a very careful step,that includes others.Sponsors can help the alocholic out here,with this step.
Hope this helps...
God Bless,take care!!!!!!!!!!
No More Mrs. Nice Guy
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Iowa
Posts: 724
What I have learned is this: Amends are personal, powerful and very individual. The A most likely will work with his or her sponsor on the steps. Step 8 says , "Made a list of all persons we have harmed and became willing to make amends to them all" . Some make the list and sit on it for a long time. Some begin a list and aren't willing to be ready to make amends.... it takes time. And some go thru this process more than once. The A and his sponsor will decide a manner of making amends. WE as the "injured parties" don't get to participate in that unless we are specifically asked.
There are many different types of amends. Sometimes it's in person, sometimes it's in writing, sometimes it is a "living amend" which means that the A makes changes in his life or behavior going forward.
As family and friends, many of us believe we are entitled to an apology for all the wrong doing that the A has done to us. But my experience has been that an amend may or may not be in a manner that works for US. I am struggling with how to say this, but your A will do his amend in a way that works for him. It's difficult to understand, but the amend is really about HIM and not about YOU.
What YOU have to be careful of is measuring HIS recovery.
Courage to Change, March 15:
Before Al Anon, forgiveness meant power to me. I could judge the offender – the person who wasn’t doing what I wanted – and then exercise my power by showing that I could rise above the offense and magnanimously bestow forgiveness. But I would never forget what had been done.
Today I know that forgiveness has nothing to do with power. It does not give me control. Forgiveness is simply a reminder that I am on equal footing with every other child of God. We all do good and noble things at times; on other occasions we may offend. I have no right to judge, punish, or absolve anyone. When I behave self-righteously, I’m the one who suffers – I separate myself from my fellow human beings, focus on others, and keep busy with hateful and negative thoughts. By taking this attitude I tell myself that I am victim, so I remain a victim. The most forgiving thing I can do is to remember that my job is not to judge others, but to think and behave in a way that lets me feel good.
Today’s Reminder:
I don’t know the motives or circumstances that cause another’s behavior. I do know that when I hold onto resentment and blame, I occupy my spirit with bitterness. Today I will find a more nurturing way to fill myself up.
“You can’t hold a man down without staying down with him.” –Booker T Washington
There are many different types of amends. Sometimes it's in person, sometimes it's in writing, sometimes it is a "living amend" which means that the A makes changes in his life or behavior going forward.
As family and friends, many of us believe we are entitled to an apology for all the wrong doing that the A has done to us. But my experience has been that an amend may or may not be in a manner that works for US. I am struggling with how to say this, but your A will do his amend in a way that works for him. It's difficult to understand, but the amend is really about HIM and not about YOU.
What YOU have to be careful of is measuring HIS recovery.
Courage to Change, March 15:
Before Al Anon, forgiveness meant power to me. I could judge the offender – the person who wasn’t doing what I wanted – and then exercise my power by showing that I could rise above the offense and magnanimously bestow forgiveness. But I would never forget what had been done.
Today I know that forgiveness has nothing to do with power. It does not give me control. Forgiveness is simply a reminder that I am on equal footing with every other child of God. We all do good and noble things at times; on other occasions we may offend. I have no right to judge, punish, or absolve anyone. When I behave self-righteously, I’m the one who suffers – I separate myself from my fellow human beings, focus on others, and keep busy with hateful and negative thoughts. By taking this attitude I tell myself that I am victim, so I remain a victim. The most forgiving thing I can do is to remember that my job is not to judge others, but to think and behave in a way that lets me feel good.
Today’s Reminder:
I don’t know the motives or circumstances that cause another’s behavior. I do know that when I hold onto resentment and blame, I occupy my spirit with bitterness. Today I will find a more nurturing way to fill myself up.
“You can’t hold a man down without staying down with him.” –Booker T Washington
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Im talking about my ex-ABF and the last I talked with him was a month ago... IMHO and Im trying not to judge harshly he is a dry drunk who is going through the motions. The only change I saw was he is not drinking. He still is not taking care of responsibilities, dealing with the deep issues (only brushes past them) and to be honest it looks to me like he is still partying, just now without drinking and his new fellowship. He avoids what ever does not make him feel good about himself. I understand that he has to recover in his way and because Im not an A... I probably dont have the whole picture. His sponsor has been sober just over a year and is now living with a gal he met in the program that has about 6 months in.
Now, I know that is the step he will be working on soon and I know his sponsor has told him to be around me is not healthy for him and to just not answer calls and such. To be quiet honest I dont want him to call, nothing has changed and it just hurts to much. Yes I love him, but not at the expense of me and Im confident after watching for a month, attending some of his meetings with him and being around his "fellowship" that he would not be sincer anyway.
I dont want to hinder his recovery, That is another reason I have not had contact in a month (not healthy for either of us) but knowing this is coming I was wondering if he calls (dont know he will... He cant fool me so I make him uncomfortable) I could just politely suggest that he write me a letter and consider it complete. That way he can feel good about his steps and let it go and I dont have to see him or deal with the hurt of more lies.
In the month we saw each other he went from knowing I was the one he wanted to spend his life with to saying he cant see me till his first year is up 3 times in 4 weeks. When I ended the physical... well needless to say I talked to him 3 times after but never saw him again (did not have time for me, was working on him) and then after 3 days I never heard from him again.
Now, I know that is the step he will be working on soon and I know his sponsor has told him to be around me is not healthy for him and to just not answer calls and such. To be quiet honest I dont want him to call, nothing has changed and it just hurts to much. Yes I love him, but not at the expense of me and Im confident after watching for a month, attending some of his meetings with him and being around his "fellowship" that he would not be sincer anyway.
I dont want to hinder his recovery, That is another reason I have not had contact in a month (not healthy for either of us) but knowing this is coming I was wondering if he calls (dont know he will... He cant fool me so I make him uncomfortable) I could just politely suggest that he write me a letter and consider it complete. That way he can feel good about his steps and let it go and I dont have to see him or deal with the hurt of more lies.
In the month we saw each other he went from knowing I was the one he wanted to spend his life with to saying he cant see me till his first year is up 3 times in 4 weeks. When I ended the physical... well needless to say I talked to him 3 times after but never saw him again (did not have time for me, was working on him) and then after 3 days I never heard from him again.
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I haven't done that step yet, and my A isn't at that one either. I remember reading around the forums though, and I found what I was looking for. This was the thought that I really connected to about amends:
Originally Posted by CAPTAINZING2000
Actions speak volumes my friend. We can all say sorry till we're blue in the face. Staying sober and doing unto others helps heal the wound faster then shallow word filled with empty promises.
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Originally Posted by osier59
What YOU have to be careful of is measuring HIS recovery.
It can take people months or years to get to Step 9. It all depends on how they work their program.
Basically Cynay - it is HIS program and he will figure out the best way to do Step 9.
Personally - I'm on Step 9 in Alanon and I am not allowed to contact my ex boyfriends to personally make amends..But AlAnon works the steps differently then AA..
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Join Date: May 2004
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I don't feel it's up to me to say how someone else should work their programme.
Although I did draw the line at being the "other human being" for my then fiance's Step 5. That might have been a bit much....
Although I did draw the line at being the "other human being" for my then fiance's Step 5. That might have been a bit much....
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OK.... I need to explain. His recovery is HIS, I dont want to control it, be a part of it, I will not understand it, and its not my problem to understand him or his recovery. I dont have to agree with how he is recovering but Im not in his life to judge that.
Im not consumed with how he recovers, Im more conserned about my recovery from living with an A. Im not a fool that believes what he is telling me because this is exactly what I base the truth of of.
Originally Posted by CAPTAINZING2000
Actions speak volumes my friend. We can all say sorry till we're blue in the face. Staying sober and doing unto others helps heal the wound faster then shallow word filled with empty promises.
I dont hold hard feelings for him, I know he is sick, I feel sorry for him only because his life is falling apart around him, But I also know that its his life to live and his recovery....
The question is more in my boundries. I dont want to talk with him, I dont want to see him. I do know that this step is important to him but I do not want to participate in it. I want to have no contact so that I can work on me and heal and I know from my experience with him that to see him would only set us both back in our individual recovery.... SO.... IF this question comes up, do you feel it is unreasonable to just ask that he make his amends in a different style for the common good of us both.
Im not consumed with how he recovers, Im more conserned about my recovery from living with an A. Im not a fool that believes what he is telling me because this is exactly what I base the truth of of.
Originally Posted by CAPTAINZING2000
Actions speak volumes my friend. We can all say sorry till we're blue in the face. Staying sober and doing unto others helps heal the wound faster then shallow word filled with empty promises.
I dont hold hard feelings for him, I know he is sick, I feel sorry for him only because his life is falling apart around him, But I also know that its his life to live and his recovery....
The question is more in my boundries. I dont want to talk with him, I dont want to see him. I do know that this step is important to him but I do not want to participate in it. I want to have no contact so that I can work on me and heal and I know from my experience with him that to see him would only set us both back in our individual recovery.... SO.... IF this question comes up, do you feel it is unreasonable to just ask that he make his amends in a different style for the common good of us both.
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Dont even bother waiting for the apology, I think an A like yours and mine has a long way to go to possibly hit such a step. It'd probably be years before he hits it, just focus on moving on with your life. I know you still hurt , as I do, and its sad to see them just keep partying and finding others to live with and jump into other addict relationships. My ex just parties with her friends too living off of disability and has no job and all she has to do really is go to one AA meeting , rest of time is paid vacation by our tax money. She's living in transitional , and has no job.
She brags about how she is making it on her own now, but how are you making it on your own if your jobless, have no home yet and nothing going on in your life except partying with fellowship. Not to mention, still a liar to themselves and others.
Its a really sad sight, it hurts me, but I also want her to go ahead and get well and hopefully just not wonder lost in this world living with Mom forever or just a life of finding someone to leech off of, whether it be the governments tax money or some other random guy or her own Mother. Its a sad sight that they are mostly in denial about.
I dont want her to contact me either, even write a letter, I'd rather move on, I have been moving on. A lot of great things have been happening in my life, while for her, she not only is at point zero and does nothing but partying, but recently got in an accident where she'll probably get her Mom or somebody to try to pay for her deductiable since she was at fault. At one end, it makes me angry how she uses anyone who cares for her, on other hand, its a real sorry sight for her true self.
She brags about how she is making it on her own now, but how are you making it on your own if your jobless, have no home yet and nothing going on in your life except partying with fellowship. Not to mention, still a liar to themselves and others.
Its a really sad sight, it hurts me, but I also want her to go ahead and get well and hopefully just not wonder lost in this world living with Mom forever or just a life of finding someone to leech off of, whether it be the governments tax money or some other random guy or her own Mother. Its a sad sight that they are mostly in denial about.
I dont want her to contact me either, even write a letter, I'd rather move on, I have been moving on. A lot of great things have been happening in my life, while for her, she not only is at point zero and does nothing but partying, but recently got in an accident where she'll probably get her Mom or somebody to try to pay for her deductiable since she was at fault. At one end, it makes me angry how she uses anyone who cares for her, on other hand, its a real sorry sight for her true self.
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I understand what you're saying, hon. I just don't know the answer really. One day I may have to face the same, but in the meantime, I am focussing on my recovery and not worrying what he is doing. By the time he comes to make amends you might be in a better position to hear them. You don't have to do anything with them, and if they are made sincerely they should have no meaning other than what is said.
How long has be been working the steps, out of interest?
How long has be been working the steps, out of interest?
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Thank you minnie... I guess that is what the question is....
Yes he will and needs to work his recovery the way that is best for him.
BUT I also need to do what is right for me, Im asking about drawing that line and if in setting my boundries with a no contact, it hurts his recovery IF he feels he needs to make amends to me and I will not allow contact.
This just is not coming out right I think.... I want what is best for us both, and honestly I think no contact is most healthy for all concerned.
Yes he will and needs to work his recovery the way that is best for him.
BUT I also need to do what is right for me, Im asking about drawing that line and if in setting my boundries with a no contact, it hurts his recovery IF he feels he needs to make amends to me and I will not allow contact.
This just is not coming out right I think.... I want what is best for us both, and honestly I think no contact is most healthy for all concerned.
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If think I understand where you're coming from. He's a big boy now and he has the support of AA and a sponsor. If you have decided that you can't have any contact with him, then he will just have to deal with that. If that throws him off his path to recovery, then I would question how committed he was in the first place.
You can't set a boundary and save someone's feelings, you know.
You can't set a boundary and save someone's feelings, you know.
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He has been in AA 6 months... and he just started making the list of people to make amends to last month.
In watching him (and I was pretty good about keeping my mouth shut) the for that month that we saw each other I honestly think he is just going through the motions... I was soooo suprised that he finished his last step as quickly as he did (that one would have been hard for me) but like I said its not my concern, it is HIS recovery.... I was told by his bestfriend of 15 years (has been sober 20) that this is not normal for the program, but normal for him (does not want to grow up were his words) this is his third time in recovery.
After 6 months I finally got over the anger of what he put not only myself but my daughter though.... I dont want the chaos back into my life, and seeing him would do just that. Im still working on the rest of my recovery. You are all right it could be years before this is an issue (doubt it he seems to think 12 steps/12 months) or it may never be one.... but its just a question that I was thinking about and wanted to discuss.
In watching him (and I was pretty good about keeping my mouth shut) the for that month that we saw each other I honestly think he is just going through the motions... I was soooo suprised that he finished his last step as quickly as he did (that one would have been hard for me) but like I said its not my concern, it is HIS recovery.... I was told by his bestfriend of 15 years (has been sober 20) that this is not normal for the program, but normal for him (does not want to grow up were his words) this is his third time in recovery.
After 6 months I finally got over the anger of what he put not only myself but my daughter though.... I dont want the chaos back into my life, and seeing him would do just that. Im still working on the rest of my recovery. You are all right it could be years before this is an issue (doubt it he seems to think 12 steps/12 months) or it may never be one.... but its just a question that I was thinking about and wanted to discuss.
No More Mrs. Nice Guy
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Iowa
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You have every right to set boundaries with this man or anyone else. If you don't want to see him or talk to him, you can let him know clearly and firmly. But then you have to be consistent and follow it up! I had problems with this, in that I saw a glimmer of hope and sincerity in mine and would play "It's over, it's over, come on over" which became very confusing for all involved.
I wish you and your A both all the best at working your programs of recovery
Barb
I wish you and your A both all the best at working your programs of recovery
Barb
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Osier that is my purpose in NO contact. I would do the same thing, be very inconsistent if I did see hope that he was walking the walk. I still love him.
Strange how I can say I still love him when I have no respect, trust, faith in him.... hurmm that sounds like another issue...
Because I still love him I would not want to do anything to "hurt" his recovery, (like not allowing him to make amends) I dont want to be cold/bitter and I hope he does not think that, I just want to protect myself and my daughter from that life again, I want to recover and never make this error again (sign of the cross) SO... I was thinking that IF this comes to pass... I would simply tell him that I do not feel that seeing each other is healthy for both our recoveries... and if he feels the need to make amends he could send us a letter... That way everyones needs are met.
Ohhh and the last time he asked me about how I felt.... I told him, his response was "DONT GUILT ME" I did not see how I was guilting him, I was just being honest with him on his question.... Its egg shells with him and I want to do this the most loving way I can.
Strange how I can say I still love him when I have no respect, trust, faith in him.... hurmm that sounds like another issue...
Because I still love him I would not want to do anything to "hurt" his recovery, (like not allowing him to make amends) I dont want to be cold/bitter and I hope he does not think that, I just want to protect myself and my daughter from that life again, I want to recover and never make this error again (sign of the cross) SO... I was thinking that IF this comes to pass... I would simply tell him that I do not feel that seeing each other is healthy for both our recoveries... and if he feels the need to make amends he could send us a letter... That way everyones needs are met.
Ohhh and the last time he asked me about how I felt.... I told him, his response was "DONT GUILT ME" I did not see how I was guilting him, I was just being honest with him on his question.... Its egg shells with him and I want to do this the most loving way I can.
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Cynay
If his making amends in person would bother you, then you can tell him so, and let him decide whether to make amends in writing or not at all, it really doesn't matter and it's his amends and up to him. But telling you in person shouldn't be an option if you don't want it done that way. Don't worry, it won't wreck or make his recovery either way.
I think that Step 9 is misunderstood by those who think amends should be forthcoming. My husband has waited for years for my son to "confess all" and admit all the things he has done. My husband doesn't drink or use drugs, nor is he codependent, so he is not in any recovery and doesn't really grasp the Steps.
My son has told us both, many times that he is sorry for all the things he has done that hurt us. That's amends enough for me, and have told my husband that is probably all he is ever going to get, not details.
My point is, amends are up to them, how and to whom they make them. For me, when I make amends it is important that I am sincere and it comes from my heart. Sometimes "I'm sorry" is sufficient, and sometimes I feel a need to say more, but it's up to me and every individual how they do this.
And I feel a need to add here...I hear over and over from many people here that they are waiting for some huge apology, and my feeling is that in many cases, as sorry as they may be, you're not going to get it. That's not about you Cynay, but it ties in with this thread.
Bottom line, if you don't want to see him in person, you don't have to. He'll learn to deal with it. Let's hope that making amends isn't his excuse to try to see you. I've seen that happen before.
Hugs
Ann
Step 9.Made direct amends to such people wherever possible,except when to do so would injure them or others.
I think that Step 9 is misunderstood by those who think amends should be forthcoming. My husband has waited for years for my son to "confess all" and admit all the things he has done. My husband doesn't drink or use drugs, nor is he codependent, so he is not in any recovery and doesn't really grasp the Steps.
My son has told us both, many times that he is sorry for all the things he has done that hurt us. That's amends enough for me, and have told my husband that is probably all he is ever going to get, not details.
My point is, amends are up to them, how and to whom they make them. For me, when I make amends it is important that I am sincere and it comes from my heart. Sometimes "I'm sorry" is sufficient, and sometimes I feel a need to say more, but it's up to me and every individual how they do this.
And I feel a need to add here...I hear over and over from many people here that they are waiting for some huge apology, and my feeling is that in many cases, as sorry as they may be, you're not going to get it. That's not about you Cynay, but it ties in with this thread.
Bottom line, if you don't want to see him in person, you don't have to. He'll learn to deal with it. Let's hope that making amends isn't his excuse to try to see you. I've seen that happen before.
Hugs
Ann
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Ann, thank you...
Your right there was a time I was thinking that way. I was waiting for that big apology and you know what... I got it 2 months ago when I let him back into my life, tears and all.... but it was not real.
I only say that because he did everything all over again in the month I saw him... nothing had changed. Now I cant speak for him, it might have been very real to him. 1/2 the time I dont think he knows what is real to him or what he wants and that is ok, perhaps its part of his recovery.... BUT its not healthy for mine.
Staying away from him is very hard, but Im sticking to it this time (says a small prayer for strength) I just dont want that chaos in my life. I told him what my boundries were, what I want in a relationship and how I feel the last time we were talking... and you know what. I have not heard from him since. If that is not the sign I needed then I dont know what is and though Im pretty sure he will come around again.... I just cant let that happen.
I have made a point never to say never.... So I just pray alot
Your right there was a time I was thinking that way. I was waiting for that big apology and you know what... I got it 2 months ago when I let him back into my life, tears and all.... but it was not real.
I only say that because he did everything all over again in the month I saw him... nothing had changed. Now I cant speak for him, it might have been very real to him. 1/2 the time I dont think he knows what is real to him or what he wants and that is ok, perhaps its part of his recovery.... BUT its not healthy for mine.
Staying away from him is very hard, but Im sticking to it this time (says a small prayer for strength) I just dont want that chaos in my life. I told him what my boundries were, what I want in a relationship and how I feel the last time we were talking... and you know what. I have not heard from him since. If that is not the sign I needed then I dont know what is and though Im pretty sure he will come around again.... I just cant let that happen.
I have made a point never to say never.... So I just pray alot
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Cynay, regarding your last point... I am in the exact situation. My ex came back after her first attempt at recovery, I thought life was going to be great, but in just a month, she was back to her old self. Like yourself, I'm not banking on her anymore.
Like yourself, staying away is very hard. I am thinking even though I'm hurt and I know I need healing in many ways, I will find a girl just to make me stop obsessing over my ex. Someone to lay by me even if its not a serious relationship, I think I can still work on healing while I have close company taking my mind off things.
I've just been busy with closing a new home (dont even have a home right now really to invite anyone over) and repairing my bike, else I'd probably be doing this already and posting less here.
Dunno, just want the waking up in the mornings from dreams of her to go away.
Like yourself, staying away is very hard. I am thinking even though I'm hurt and I know I need healing in many ways, I will find a girl just to make me stop obsessing over my ex. Someone to lay by me even if its not a serious relationship, I think I can still work on healing while I have close company taking my mind off things.
I've just been busy with closing a new home (dont even have a home right now really to invite anyone over) and repairing my bike, else I'd probably be doing this already and posting less here.
Dunno, just want the waking up in the mornings from dreams of her to go away.
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Awww Codemaster... I know really know how much it hurts. Im sorry
Im choosing not to get into a relationship for a year from the time this one ended... that will be December. I will date but no sleeping with/getting to close to another because I dont want to hurt them like I have been hurt. I worry about that. They get too attached.
Im just going to spend 2005 working on me, my relationships with friends, my faith, my career, my family..... Growth is the order of the year.... I just dont want to take steps backwards... I dont want to use anyone/anything (self medication) to become strong again... Because the man I want to attract is a man of Strength and if Im a wennie and lost and have not recovered from living with a A then he will not be attracted to me and I will just end up with another co-dependant/dependant flake again.
We all handle the issues differently .... this is just what I have decided will work for me and what I need right now.
Im choosing not to get into a relationship for a year from the time this one ended... that will be December. I will date but no sleeping with/getting to close to another because I dont want to hurt them like I have been hurt. I worry about that. They get too attached.
Im just going to spend 2005 working on me, my relationships with friends, my faith, my career, my family..... Growth is the order of the year.... I just dont want to take steps backwards... I dont want to use anyone/anything (self medication) to become strong again... Because the man I want to attract is a man of Strength and if Im a wennie and lost and have not recovered from living with a A then he will not be attracted to me and I will just end up with another co-dependant/dependant flake again.
We all handle the issues differently .... this is just what I have decided will work for me and what I need right now.
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Originally Posted by CodeMaster
Like yourself, staying away is very hard. I am thinking even though I'm hurt and I know I need healing in many ways, I will find a girl just to make me stop obsessing over my ex. Someone to lay by me even if its not a serious relationship, I think I can still work on healing while I have close company taking my mind off things.
Code - for me..In my 20's I thought I could heal with someone else in my life..but now I see that I can't..I don't know why but it's much easier for me to grown on my own..Just my experience..My sponsor asked me when I first broke up with my ex to not date anyone for a year. At 36, I was like - are you crazy woman? I didn't give her a year commitment. I said - I'll give you until I finish my 5th step..well..I finished my 5th step and was like - hmm ..still don't want to date..ok..I'll give you a few more months..
Now I see the wisdom..I only have 2 more months to go until a year in AlAnon but really I'm having a ball just trying new things and concentrating on my life..don't feel the need to date..besides haven't met anyone I really like and don't want to date another A..In fact I'm kind of relooking how I "date" in general..So I need to "Date" someone and not immediately jump in a relationship..
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