I agree with you tabatha, after I stopped enabling my AXH, he stopped "loving me".
Then he had so much anger and resentment against me he was mean and evil and he did it all SOBER...mean, mean ....A**Hole.
You should NOT hurt the people you love...I don't think so anyway!

I read letters from women who love too much and Robyn Norwood asnwers that question really well (what is love?).

About the A's emotional maturity level and their ability to love us - someone who is 30 years sober told me recently (and I think they heard this in AA) that the alcoholic's maturity level freezes at the age they had their first drink.

Also, I have heard "An alcoholic is going to behave the way they are going to behave - and you just happen to be there." Meaning if it wasn't you, it could be someone else. Though, in my case, it seems to be that the A acts this way with the people that are the most close to them. Friends or "chosen ones" as I like to call them get the best treatment.

Hmm, though I agree with your quote about happiness, I think the issue here is being loved. If we cannot feel loved by our alcoholic, or we do not, or they cannot show us love, then isn't that kind of...not the point of marriage? Maybe I'm being naive, but I feel like I deserve to feel loved by my husband of all people.

I agree NewbieJ, isn't that what a relationship is?? we share the love, affection, values, interest etc. We each as individuals have our own set of values but we "share" those values with the ones we LOVE. I think in an alcoholic relationship Values are abused and people are used, anything goes except true healthy love.

Talk is cheap and means nothing from an active alcoholic. It's actions that count. Does he act like he loves and values you? Do you feel loved? I'm not talking about what he says, but what he actually does. Do you think is loving to lie to someone? Keep in mind that active alcoholics have the emotional maturity of a child. They are self-centered, self-involved. What the alcoholic loves more than anything or anyone on earth is booze. It is their higher power, God, the greatest love of their life.

recovering alcoholic here. i can say that every relationship i was in i definately loved the woman i was with. i hated me. i definately knew what i put them through, but didnt want to feel it, so i'd get drunk.
i felt guilt over everything, so i drank to try and forget it. at one time, i knew just about everything that came out of my mouth was a lie, but there came a time when i didnt care any more and i was the only one who believed anything i said and didnt care if nobody believed me. i actually BELIEVED a lot of it.

thinking about things from their perspective?? of course!!! if they changed and did what i thought they should do, we woulda both been happier!!! other than that, if i did try and look from their perspective, i dont recall caring about it.
alcoholism is a very baffling disease. one thing that was hard to get from my head to my heart is i wasnt a bad man, i was a sick man, but i am grateful i didnt hear that til i got into recovery. that woulda been a great excuse to get drunk.

Wow, a 6 year old thread on a topic that will never get old: do they really love us, when their drunken behaviors are so destructive and hurtful? Can that really be love or is this just the crappy version that I get to experience because of alcoholism? I just said to AW last night (when she said she loves me), "well you always hurt the one you love".

I am so confused after 17 years that I don't know what love is anymore. My experience has me equating love to unending patience, forgiveness, long suffering and recurring pain. I think love is sad, and love is difficult and hard, and it takes a lot of effort. Love is perseverance in the face of hardship. And love is exhausting.

I mean all of these things, and as I type and reflect on what I am saying, I realize, OMG I am so messed up it's not even funny!

I still love AW, but like others in this post I am struck with the larger question, what is the real definition of love and have I completely disconnected with what it really is? I am frightened by the realization, I don't know what love is, because it is not long suffering and learning to tolerate pain. I am one sick puppy, but enough on that.

The other thing about alcoholic love, is that it is a superficial fantasy love. At its best moments, it was a highly romanticized "prince and princess" type of escapist love, as if no one else was as in love as we were. Unrealistic. Now that the bubble has really burst (I am legally separated because I just couldn't take any more of the whole merry go round), I feel like I was really pretending and playing along with her a good deal of the time. Like 2 children really.

So maybe I am growing up? Unfortunately I find myself feeling lost and confused in this strange new mature adult world. I feel like "I don't know squat about squat". Wow my self image is in the tank. I'll stop now. Thanks for listening.

I don't know. But here's where I'm at right now:
"Expectations are resentments waiting to happen."
If we focus on what we deserve, or how things should be, or how we can make things the way we want them to be; of course we're going to be disappointed.
I'm blessed that my wife is in recovery, but our relationship has changed too. We have changed. I've changed.
So what changed? For me, Al-anon has been helpful. Therapy, even though I didn't like it, gave me some great tools. Prayer & meditation. I wish I could distill it down, but I think that it's a process. Baby steps.
The single biggest thing, besides 2 years of Al-anon meetings, was being given the books "Co-dependent No More" and "Boundaries in Marriage." Talk about how we think things should be: My wife and I were totally entwined. She could say a word, I would react, she would react...misery ensued. The idea of boundaries was not only foreign to me, it seemed wrong. "Married people can have boundaries?" I was shocked. But what a difference it has made!
I could go on. I've written and discarded pages.
I'd like to paraphrase NewbieJ's comment: It's not about happiness, it's about being loved.
For me, I really think it's about happiness.

Amazing thread, really amazing.... So many things for me to think about here.

This is a large part of what I always think my AH is feeling. I think he is terrified at the thought of me not being "there" but I'm not sure how much, if any, of that is because he loves me. I don't think he loves anything other than alcohol. Sometimes maybe his nephews/nieces, but that's about it.

What I do know is that I have not felt loved by my AH in a very, very, very long time, genuinely cannot remember when it was, and that is more important than wondering whether he loves me or not. I too cannot remember how it feels and that makes me so sad, and so desperate to feel it again.

Adventure

I have to say I am extremely disturbed aboiut the lack of understanding of the alcoholic FROM THEIR PARTNERS of all people! The issue with the alcoholic is, as he is addicted to alcohol - an addictive substance like nicotine with intense ppsychological cravings - he feels compelled to drinkand as they illness progresses he will do so by any means even if he is hurting you. Do they feel guilt? YES, in fact alcoholics are more sensitive to emotions such as fear, guilt, empathy, love when they are sober and so when the guilt comes it is far more intense than a normal person may feel as their brain goes into overdrive from lack of alcohol. They then have to drink more to numb that guilt otherwise it would drive them insane with its intensity and persistence. Alcoholics usually rate guilt as the one of the main reasons they drink. Hope that helps a little.

Actually, I think there is a lot of misunderstanding on both sides of this equation. We can't possibly understand what it is like to live with alcoholism because most of us have never been an alcoholic. Many alcoholics will never understand the dance of the codependent because they have never lived through it, either....and if they have, they have turned to their drug of choice to numb the pain.

Also, I don't believe that alcoholics are any more sensitive to their own emotions than anyone else. It seems to me that they, sadly, have never been taught how to deal with their emotions. So, they don't know how to handle them.

Alcoholics do love us in their own way, I think, but unless and until they are willing to do whatever it takes to obtain and maintain sobriety, they do not make for reliable, stable, mature, partners or parents.

All people, including alcoholics and addicts, are deserving of love and respect on a basic, human level.

Understanding ??

You stick by your partner through 4 years of hell.. finally get her into a 1st class rehab for 3 months and she relapses twice in a week five months later.

I understand that I cant love a person who simply doesnt want to help themselves. So much slack is given but like all things its a choice.

As for a progressive disease if she was put on a island without booze she would get better.. Right ???

Love = kindness , happiness etal not let down after let down so NO a alcoholic cant love...

its really about how much we love ourselves and are willing to put up with..

great thread

There is a LOT of differing opinions on the highly complicated problem of alcoholism and we all see it from "different pairs of glasses". I am not an alcoholic but I grew up abused by an alcoholic father and neglected by a codependent mother. I married a man who developed an addiction and had two children with him. I managed to have serious relationships with another alcoholic in between my last alcoholic relationship. I work with the criminal justice system and work with families of addiction... tens of thousands of them through 4 decades.

I don't know what it like to have the intense craving or desire for alcohol but I have great empathy for those that have that problem. Other people all across the world have problems... deep and serious problems and as adults we have to solve our own personal problems.

Alcoholism is a nasty and deadly disease but the root problem is not stopping drinking... 99% can stop drinking it is the staying stopped that is the problem. As a society we have norms of behavior that all of us know and understand from kindegarten on and unacceptable behavior is unacceptable. period.

My belief system about alcoholism has changed through the years and quite frankly many alcoholics... MOST alcoholics are not going to "recover" in the full sense of the word. They are very broken individuals in addition to their alcoholism.

That being said... creating boundaries and strict expectations of behavior and not allowing others to be harmed by the bad behaviors and abuse of the alcoholic is the first step. The second is making sure that societally we have suitable services to help even the most desperate alcoholic that wants help. Only 1 in 10 that desires treatment gets it and it is the poor and marginialized that are left out.

Alcoholics don't need our pity they need our wisdom and maturity to put expectations of rational and adult decisions that help themselves as well as their loved ones. If they do not wish to do "whatever it takes" we need to remove ourselves and our childrens from their "hula hoop" of destruction.

Sounds harsh but the "medicine" either cures or kills the situation and the end result is whatever will be... it is up to the alcoholic to choose life or death...or prison or hospital bed.

Whatever it takes is whatever it takes. I know places an alcoholic can go and there is no alcohol... period. It is a nonalcoholic treatment facility and 30 miles from the nearest alcoholic beverage on foot. You can live there for life if you need to.

Whatever it takes is whatever it takes.

My Higher Power is God. And I believe that God is Love. I also believe that when a person is drinking and/or drugging, they are the furthest they can get from God and, therefore, the furthest from Love one can get.

Many say that alcoholism and addiction are spiritual diseases. This makes sense to me and jives with my understanding of my Higher Power.

I also believe there is a power that is the opposite of God, the opposite of Love, and that is the Devil, the Father of the Lie. Alcohol and drugs are a Lie. They trick the person who is doing them into all sorts of destructive and hurtful ways of thinking and acting.

I have never felt Love from people who are practicing alcoholics or addicts. They live a life of Lies and a person cannot follow God and follow the Liar at the same time. I have felt the most incredible, amazing, and beautiful love from an abstinent alcoholic/addict. But when they turn to drugs or alcohol, it's like watching the battle between God and the Devil, between Love and Lies, in a single person. It breaks my heart.

This question pleagued me for a very long time, and kept me stuck in indicision.

On one hand I questioned my A's love for me because of his hurtful actions, and on the other hand I questioned MY love for him, because isn't true love supposed to be "unconditional"? That kept me trapped for a long time.

The conclusion I came to is this: My love for him is unconditional, I will always have love for him. BUT being an active participant in my life comes with conditions. Conditions that command mutual respect and honesty. The same conditions I have for friends, business partners, family members and lovers.

My A has been sober four months, he's had 2 "slip ups", but I think he's on the right path for him. I have allowed him to be a part of my life, and he has respected my "conditions" or boundries. It's hard, I'm not perfect, I became as sick as him with my codieness. Not only was he not the man I fell in love with anymore, but I was not the woman he fell in love with either. We're slowly trying to find those people again. I'm sure we'll have bumps along the way, and sometimes I get so damn sick of all of it. But I'm sure we'll both be better people in the end, no matter what the end is.

And I still question his love for me. It's going to take a long time to heal the wounds from the past, if they can be healed at all. But, one day at a time is all I can do.

I find this very interesting. Why are you disturbed by what other people do or don't understand?

Your friend,

I don't think we can never truly know what another person feels or thinks(alcoholic/addict/anyone) so it feels to me (;-p) like a futile question.

All we can establish is whether we feel loved by them because their actions demonstrate the sort of things that we associate with love - this is probably different for everyone.

Given that I can't know, if I had to lay money on it, I would bet the farm that my ex feels love, he loves his children enormously, he can't always translate that feeling he has into loving actions. For example: drinking so much that he passes out when they are in his care and putting them in danger is not a very "loving" act, denying this happens, refusing to get help so it doesn't happen again, again not very loving acts, but these acts don't change the emotions he experiences.

The emotions he experiences are his business, whether I liked how he acted towards me was mine.

:c011:

Personally I don't think active alcoholics are capable of love and talk is cheap. What they love more than anything else is alcohol/drugs, it is their higher power, God, mother. They put their focus on alcohol, not their spouse or kids.