JT

I can hear Tina in the background!

So often we read on these boards about a partner who does something despicable and we overlook it because we love them? We show up for more in the name of love? This person can make us sick just thinking about the things they do....but we love them. They can cheat, call us names, go MIA for long periods and we stay in these morbidly dysfunctional relationships because somewhere along the line we fell in love?

Does falling in love automatically render our common sense useless?

Falling in love serves a purpose...if we never had that feeling the world would no longer repopulate itself. We would not get married, date, or look longingly into someones eyes and want to swallow them up. Love is that indefinable "feeling" that draws us to another person. But what happens when that fire cools?? And it does.

Shouldn't what is left be mutual admiration, respect, trust, a feeling of caring and being cared for? Being deliriously happy for the rest of our days with the object of our love is unrealistic...besides it sounds exhausting. But as boring as it sounds shouldn't we feel safe? Shouldn't we be able to predict with a fair degree of accuracy that our partner will catch us if we need them to...and we will do the same?

So kick me in the shins and call me a cynic. It just seems as tho this word...love...well, it's still just a word. And really...in a lot of our situations what does it have to do with it??

Hugs,
JT

TinyVoice

OH, JT...WONDERFUL POST!!!!

WHen I look back and see all the times I would tell my best friend the horrible things my ABF did to me. And I would say I'm so upset but I "love him so"....I look back now and I think....WHAT??!?! It wasn't love in any shape or form. I don't know what it was. But it wasn't love.

AND when he STILL calls me now....months after our break up...months after all the threats, lies and manipulation...and leaves me voice mials (i won't answer his calls) that he misses me and still loves me. I dont' know what my true reaction really is....i want to vomit? I want to scream? No emotion at all as I neither hate, love, anything toward this man. This relationship gives new meaning to teh word love to me now.

I also put up with my frist husband for 17 years. As he was cold, controlling, critical. 17 years of unhappiness. 17 years of saying I love you when I didn't mean it. 17 years of him saying how much he loved me as he criticized how i set the table, how i loaded the dishwasher...as I gained 80 pounds and became critically ill and he sat and watched and still criticized me to the nth deree and then did the same thing to our children.

I think a lot of us really need to take a look at this word love and the relationships we are in.

This post inspired me to change my location in my profile!!

My next relationship I will definitely be looking for peace, calm, safety, respect, admiration. Not "love" as I have defined it in the past.

Gabe

I think when addiction is introduced into a relationship, definitions of love can get shot to hell. The addict is sick, the Anon is sick and the definition of love becomes sick. Many times in this forum a person is asked, "What are you getting out of this relationship?" That's a valid question, and worth thinking about in many situations. And I think when we seek out recovery, our definition of love gets healthy as we get healthy.

Ann

That scraping noise you heard, JT, was me pulling my chair a little closer. I'd like to listen a while, think on this and then respond if I have an answer.

Love you JT, good topic.

Hugs
Ann

journeygal

Hi JT,

You are absolutely right. Love is irrelevant when it comes to this.

I guess for me, today, the pain of leaving feels worse than staying. I get glimpses of Jack in sobriety and life is really good. It is peaceful, loving, safe. It is not perfect, but I'm more than content with it.

In the past, whenever Jack relapsed, he always fought his way back without me even considering leaving. I enabled him and he still managed to get clean. So I always have hope that he can get himself together b/c he always has before, without my help and in spite of my enabling.

This latest relapse has been really bad and for the first time, I considered leaving. I packed my stuff - several times. I found a place to live and was out the door. At the last minute he made a host of promises, including rehab, and I decided to see if he could make it. And once again I got a glimpse of how things could - should - be. He went to outpatient rehab, was going to meetings, everything was great. He seemed to be on his way.

Now he's struggling again and I just don't know what's next for him or me.

I don't stay out of love, I stay out of hope. When I see the man I married for long periods of time, I know he is the one I want to be with. But the more and more that man disappears, the more I wonder when I will reach my bottom and have to make a real change. But whatever the reason, and it's definitely part of my own disease, I'm just not there yet.

Sigh...I hate addiction.

JT

And I know that Gabe...I am sitting a little farther down the recovery road where it is easier to see. It wasn't that long ago that I was also confused but it wasn't about love. I stayed for alot of reason's but I never felt like it was love. Security?? Fear??

I kept the Beav at home far too long as well...guilt, unreasonable feeling of responsibilty??

chrisea

I once heard a friend of my ex tell a group of us about his outlook on partners... "You put women all in a bag, and pick one and you get the same thing". Well at the time, I thought you can do the same thing for men and I definetly see that now. That statement was made 23 yrs or so ago. After the infatuation fades, usually (as I see it) there isn't much left. But on Occassion I have seen a friend or family member have the relationship that ( I would trade this woman for...) One that is a combination of 2 givers or it won't work, the situation of a giver and a taker (the taker will wear the other person down... ) But generally I think that if you are to have this relationship like this, it happens when you are in your 20's or the latest in your 30's - MAYBE... I have only seen it a few times where later in life, 2 givers get together, when they are both widowers. So I'm for the single and old club, now.

bluerskies

Love is such a funny word...we grow up with this ridiculous idea of what it should be and then we can't find it and can't figure out why we can't find it. Yuck. I know I love my ex but when we were together I thought I was loving him by trying to MAKE him get clean, by suffering through our relationship, by holding in all the pain. Now I'm starting to think that the most loving thing I could have done is what I did. Left the relationship and made him see what his addiction was really doing to his life. Early on in our relationship, the first time he went to rehab, the counseler told me what happens to people in relationships with addicts and he asked me if I was willing to stay. He even told me that if I was his daughter he would tell me to get out of the relationship. I remember distinctly thinking, it is my duty to stay with him and support him because I love him. It wasn't love, it was guilt or feeling of responsibility. The counseler also told me if I leave I have to leave no going back. I realize now that it was the hardest thing to do and although I did it partly for myself I also did it for him and for right now, that is my definition of love.

escape artist

the statement about wanting to devour them when you are in love- i know that feeling. where you want to dive into them and totally immerse your being in them.

and i have been wondering about this especially as of late, as i have been having these feelings for someone else other than my AH.

so as i am trying to work my recovery i am thinking maybe feeling this way is not a very healthy love. it could be passion, but it may really be a codependent kind of thing which has been getting me into trouble most of my life.

what do you think? codie love? or just crazy?

DesertEyes

Love has _everything_ to do with it.

Love is what makes the world a better place, one person at a time. Love is the small acts of kindness that people show for each other which allow us all to survive a cruel and brutal world. Love for _us_ is what allows us to heal and recover. Love for our partners and spouses is what cheers them on in _their_ recovery.

But only if _they_ are willing.

Loving an "A" is the noblest calling a person could ever aspire to. There is no greater challenge in life, and no greater reward than to see them recover. Without love there can be no recovery, for them or us.

What I do wrong lies _not_ in the fact that I love my wife in spite of her shortcomings. What I do wrong is that I fail to love _me_ enough to protect myself from the harm caused by the disease. If I were able to love me enought to do that, I would then love her at an even higher plane. My love for her would grow to the point where I would be able to give her the dignity to make her own life the way she chooses too, instead of the way I want her to.

It's _not_ that I love my "A" too much, even though my love for her is intense. It's that I don't love her _enough_ to grant her the freedom to seek her own destiny. My love for her, as deep and strong as it may be, is poisoned with my own fear and selfishness. This program of recovery is going to help me discard that fear and replace it with faith. Discard the selfishness and replace it with self-respect. Then my love will be clean, pure and without conditions or expectations.

Whadya think?

Mike :-)

escape artist

that was beautiful deserteyes.

GettingFree

JT,
This is the essense of love for me: respect, compassion, kindness, and trust.

Yet I have used the word love, and heard it used countless times by others, when these qualities are in pretty short supply.

So what's love got to do with it? I've learned there are many ways to define love and experience that word. When it's a desperate need to be with someone, when it's a feeling of wanting to be completely enmeshed, when it's a fear that you couldn't live without the person, regardless of how you are treated or how unmet your needs are, when it's fear that you couldn't manage on your own, when you feel 'you love them more than life itself' -- that kind of love has nothing to do with a journey of finding inner peace and joy, alone or with another.

When you've learned to value and love yourself, so you are able to cultivate and build a relationship based on trust, respect, compassion and kindness -- then it can have everything to do with it.

DesertEyes,

I couldn't disagree with you more strongly.

Martyrdom: a hallmark of co-dependency that is anything but noble. It's a way to feed the unworthy feelings inside ("I am good because of my sacrifice") and rationalize settling for less than we deserve.

The noblelst calling is learning to love ourselves.

gf

osier59

JT,

Thanks for the thread. My BF and I are in the midst of this discussion ourselves. He is of the mindset that love is the commitment. Period. He has 23+ yrs of sobriety/clean time and is trained as a counselor, so I'm fairly sure that muddies the waters and makes it a lot more difficult to get a straight answer about things. (Mostly I feel as though I'm talking to the counselor and NOT my partner... but that's another thread)

His thought is that in the olden days there were many arranged marriages that lasted 50+ yrs.. Divorce was NOT an option, so those people stuck it out thru all sorts of situations etc. They figured out a way to live together and remain married... but often not speaking for yrs and/or bitterly arguing ALL the time. YUKKO YUKKO YUKKO NOT for me.

In these relationship conversations with the BF, I come out feeling very selfish and needy. I want more. I want someone who respects me, cherishes me, likes me more often than not, wants to hear what I have to say and respects my opinion etc. His reply is that I need to meet most of those needs for myself. I agree, and I do respect myself, like myself, and think I'm smart etc etc.

SO- I'm not sure what all this means. I think I have talked myself in a circle and I'll stop now. Ann, I'll just pull up a chair next to you and listen awhile.

Barb

GettingFree

Hi Barb,

No one could argue that respect starts with oneself. That said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with expecting to be treated with respect and to be cherished by the person in your most intimate relationship.

A relationship is just that. Relating with one another. Being in relationship to each other. And respecting oneself is having the ability to recognize when your needs are not being met. When you love and respect yourself, you're able to set limits and stop accepting disrespect from others -- and all that entails. His argument may be self-defeating.

As for commitment, it's only one element of love. Commitment to an unhealthy relationship? Would your b/f expect a woman to remain in a physically abusive relationsip because commitment defines love? Physical abuse is at the far end of the spectrum, but unhealthy relationships are those in which our emotional needs are unmet -- or demeaned and devalued.

Yes there used to be arranged marriages. And in those 'olden day's and cultures, women had precious few rights and underwent publicly-sanctioned abuse. You can't look at one aspect without the other.

On the other hand, the expectation of uninterrupted romantic bliss is unhealthy too. The ability to withstand challenge and constructively work out conflict is essential to a successful relationship -- with a basis of respect, trust and compassion at its core.

just my 2 or 3 cents,
gf

JessicaNAJ

JT - thanks for the post. It is good reading.

I don't know what love is or how it feels to be in love. I think I have forgotten or misinterpreted the meaning for 14 years. I'm trying to find the meaning.

jessieandme2003

This topic is very close to me right now. I am seriously ponding these issues now, before I move into any new serious relationship after having been married to and throwing out an AH.

This is interesting to me : "where later in life, 2 givers get together" because I have focused a lot on the fact I was always giving and my ex was always taking.

And this is right on as well: "the essense of love for me: respect, compassion, kindness, and trust"

I have been working on my vision of love and choosing a partner. In the past I always chose badly. I tended to fall for words of adoration, those who would boost my self esteem, and also that amazing chemistry that comes with excitement and then passion. The chemistry fades, their words become harder to continue to get, my self esteem lowers, and I am suddenly willing to out up with anything to try to get back to that early time of adoration and passion.

Now I am trying to learn to identify better qualities. To appreciate a nice guy for his honesty and caring and giving.

It is actually hard, I tend to feel a lack of those toher feelings. I am trying to work on being attracted to the better qualities.

Gabe

Hiya Spunky
Sounds like you're doing all the right things.
Good for you.

Ann

Still listening, still pondering, and scraping my chair a little closer to share something my mother's friend May used to say (you'd all love May ).

May used to say..."If you can love a man with the flu, you can love him forever."

May had a funny way with words, but what she meant was if you can still love a person when they are at their very worst, then you probably love them with a lasting kind of love.

It's easy to love someone when they are on their best behaviour, when the lights are low and the music is soft, when they smell nice and smile in a way that melts your heart. It's easy to love through the good times and the fun times and the sharing experiences times.

But can you still love them through the bad times, when life just dealt you a bad hand? Can you love them when you are poor? Can you love them when they are on their worst behaviour? I'm not talking "tolerate" I'm talking love.

I don't have any answers, yet, but I thought you'd enjoy May's theory.

Hugs
Ann

JT

Thanks Ann...something I want to post before I forget it (I am at that age) is about chasing the high. Wanting to get back to the early days when you could talk until dawn and couldn't wait to see each other again.

There is a transition period from then to here...that feeling of angst about losing that closeness when that closeness cannot be sustained? I suppose the healthier the partner the healthier the transition. Some make it through that transition and many do not. The realities of long term committment are not the things we see in the soap opera's. Leave addiction out of it and the road is still uphill. Maybe that is part of the problem...the unrealistic portrayal of love today leaves us feeling entitled. Do we love what we have or what we are trying to create?

JT

JT

Another thing that I am thinking about is loving the idea of being in love. My first marriage comes to mind. I thought I loved that man at the time, but as I have moved through recovery I know with 100% of myself that I did not. I was trying to get out of my mom's house, my best friend at the time was in love and getting married and the guy I ended up marrying was a friend of a friend who liked me and I went for it. The relationship served a purpose but it was never love. We played house, we made the baby...all the things that people are supposed to do. I put that man through the wringer with my needs. I tortured him trying to make our relationship into something it never had the capability of being. Not to mention that he was an alcoholic, a womanizer and a chronic liar. I was unable to see my own motives at the time. He was nothing more than a vehicle to get me what I thought I wanted and I was pretty annoyed with myself when I stumbled onto that ugly bit of truth.

I can't be the only one to fall for that trick of life...