DesertEyes

Hi there GFree :-)

I don't see myself in that situation. Quite the contrary. I remained in a marriage with a "practicing addict" for many years due to my own denial and lack of faith. I clasify myself in the category of the "insane", as my behavior was clearly unhealthy for both my wife and I. My behavior was _far_ from noble, it was selfish and foolish.

Denial. One of my "character defects" that I need to overcome in this program. If I can convince myself that dealing with the disease of addiction in a family member is easy, that it is somehow not as challenging as what other people face, then my denial can more easily prevent me from taking the steps necesary to heal _me_. If I can convince myself that my own problems aren't that challenging, then I can also convince myself that I don't need anybody else's help to overcome them, that I don't have to go to meetings anymore, that I don't have to work with newcomers anymore.

If I keep my mind focused on _reality_, that there are challenges in this disease that are different from, and in many ways more difficult than, those faced by other people, then I have a better chance of maintaining my respect for the power of this disease. Only thru that respect, perhaps even fear, will I be able to hold at bay the seductive illusions of denial.

That's why I rank things. That's why I say that loving a _recovering_ addict is the most challenging love of all, and that loving a _practicing_ addict is the craziest form of insanity.

Mike :-)

GettingFree

Mike,
Thanks for explaining. It sounds to me what you're really talking about is self-love and compassion for youself. Compassion that things were really that hard, that things really hurt that much, that you turned to relief and escape through addiction.

I am not a 12-stepper, and personally, I do not buy into a model of character defects. I believe framing things as character defects is continuing the shame and blame of the family systems we grew up in. None of us was born with these characater defects. None of us put up our hands and said, "Yes, I want a life of denial and torment."

No. Instead, we learned how to survive the best way we knew how. Before we were strong enough to face the pain underneath and relearn how to survive -- hopefully to thrive.

No, denial is not a character defect. It's a behaviour learned when we were young in order to survive terrible pain of the realilties we lived in -- and as children were unable to change that reality.

So yes, keep focusing on reality. That your pain really was that big.

gf

DesertEyes

Exactly right. Many "codies" and "Adult Children" have great difficulty in having self-love and self-compassion, denial is one of the many causes of that. Breaking thru that "denial" is an important part of recovery.

hmmm.... I think we're looking at the same coing from opposite sides :-) The "character defects" that 12-step programs focus on are _not_ defects that we are born with, or defects in our sense of morality. They are defects in our willingness to improve ourselves.

The ACoA who has nightmares from an abusive childhood has not defects of character. If that same ACoA uses those nightmares in order to gain sympathy from others, avoid employment and responsibility _then_ that ACoA has a character defect.

A "codie" who marries a perfectly healthy spouse has no character defect. If that same codie discovers that the spouse has developed an addiction (as my wife did after 40 years of pain medication for her disability) and then turns to denial and fails to take action then that codie has a character defect.

It's not _what_ you do that is labeled as a "character defect", it's _why_ you continue to do it that matters.

Am I making sense with this?

I think this is just a difference in definition. Children living in a toxic family are not in "denial", they are in direct and immediate pain. If anything, they are in "shock".

"Denial" is a word used to describe an _adult_ who refuses to accept the validity of clear evidence presented to them. An adult who is doing their best efforts to overcome the trauma of a toxic childhood is _not_ in denial. Depression, PTSD, etc. is what they suffer from. If that same adult _refuses_ to make an effort to overcome those traumas and hides from the truth in some form of fantasy, _then_ they are in denial.

Denial is an act of choice. When a person _chooses_ to ignore the truth, that is a character defect.

Whadya think?

Mike :-)

Daffodil

Now I am confused!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did I miss something. I thought we were talking about the topic What has love got to do with it?

I'll be back with some more questions such as ...How do you keep the bloom on the rose or the friendship alive when I am on step 11 and the other person is in the basement?




Like McArthoer, I will return!

Gabe

I love ya Daff!
Ahem, back to the topic at hand.
I really think love has everything to do with it.
Some couples stay crazy in love with eachother for a lot of years.
I can't tell you why.
I think it has to do with the two people involved and how much romance they are capable of.
Other couples get comfortable with eachother, and that's the way it works for them.
Counselors often suggest that couples remember to "go out on a date" on a regular basis.
Or take a weekend getaway.
Sparks can fade, but they can also be rekindled.
I think there is a lot of magic in love, and that's why it's what we all seem to want in our lives.

Ann

I agree with Gabe that it's important to keep the flame burning, by taking special time with each other whether it is at home or away. We spend so much of our time distracted by work and raising children, that if we do have time for each other there isn't enough energy to enjoy it.

Just like we need special time for ourself, we should also have special time with our partner.

That's not always possible. Life Daffy said, we may not be on the same page as our partner, our priorities may differ, one may be interested and the other not, and that is when we run into trouble. That's when it all begins to fall apart, because in time there is nothing left holding it together. Sad.

Hugs
Ann

GettingFree

There's a delicate balance here, and maybe this is a case of semantics.

Fundamentally, we need to acheive a baseline of emotional self-sufficiency. This means we come to love ourselves and see value in ourselves, and are able to have a unique and well-formed identity, so we don't require the value from others to define our self-worth. We learn how to comfort ourselves when troubled, we learn how to seek constructive pursuits to feel a meaningful part of the world, and we learn how find value in a range of positive engagement with others -- in our work, our friendships, and our families.

At the same time, we seek primary relationships because there is something fundamentaly in the human condition that has a need for intimacy -- the need to be loved, cherished, supported, nurtured, valued, share experience. These are not in and of themselves bad. It doesn't mean we are weak or needy to want the closeness, love, support and companionship of our mate. And so I have no problem identifying these as 'needs' rather than 'wants'.

It's a question of balance.

Once we're inside a relationship, I do believe we have the 'right' to expect certain things: we have the right to expect to be treated with compassion, respect, honesty, kindness, and trust.

I think a healthy relationship is one in which each partner sees the others' needs for intimacy as valid, and as Gabe has articulated well, a healthy relationship thrives when there is inter-dependence and inter-reliance. Where partners shift in the their levels of need and support, and do so in a loving context that validates each other.

Not believing we have the 'right' to these things has been at the core of countless co-dependent toxic relationships.

I think essential to meeting our own emotional needs ourselves, is learning to define what our emotional needs are in relationships.

JessicaNAJ

I loved my AH. All I wanted was for him to return that to me. I was there when he was at his lowest. I reassured him I would always be there for him. I gave him all of me. He took everything I gave him for granted. If he had chosen recovery - I would have supported him 100% as long as it was what he wanted for him.

Loving an addict is hard, but I did it for years with a lot of critism from alot of people. Now I question - WHAT IS LOVE!! because certainly it does not hurt this bad.

I'm 31. I will find true love and when I do, I'll know it.

GettingFree

Hmmm....interesting. I think I understand and as you say, perhaps we're looking at this similarly, but from different sides.


I still wouldn't say that the person 'using' those nightmares to gain sympathy etc. has a character defect. I would say tha they learned really unhealthy ways to get their needs met and are still locked in that. Perhaps having needs and feelings in their families was against the family 'rules', so they learned that in order to get their needs met, they had to manipulate or be a victim.

To me that view is a fundamentally different than labelling the behaviour as a defect, which to me is scornful and judgmental.

Again, the reasons why a codie fails to take action isn't because they have a character defect. It could be so many things -- fear of abandonment and being alone, fear of seeing oneself as a failure, etc. And again, those fears started very very early. So I do not see it as a character defect but as a logical outcome of early wounding in which a person has not learned how to get their needs met in healthy ways.

Exactly! Why you do any number of self-destructive, unhealth things isn't becuase you have a character defect. To say why you continue to engage in destructive behaviours is a character defect is judgmental and to me, kind of nonsense.




Agreed. Denial develops as a coping mechanism to that direct pain. Denial sets in when children, who are in immediate pain, are not allowed to experience the feelings, who are belittled and punished for having feelings. Denial often becomes a way to survive. When you're abused in the night, and have to go off to school in the morning and pretend nothing happened, act to the rest of the world as if everything is normal, denial can become very entrenched. And denial is a response to blocking the intensity of the pain. And as adults, that can take many forms.

This is I guess where we disagree. Denial may appear to be an act of choice; to me it's an inability to face, as you say, clear evidence, but more so an inability face the pain the denial is protecting against. It's a compassionate paradigm, not a judgemental one. That doesn't mean we are required to be inrelationship with those who remain in denial -- we must make loving choices for ourselves. But it does change the underlying judgment, which to me, is a repeat of judgemental family systems.

Whadya think?

gf[/QUOTE]

DesertEyes

Heya GettingFree :-)

It depends on how you understand the definition of "locked". If the person is completely unaware and uninformend of the consequences of their actions then I agree with you completely, they are deserving of sympathy and compassion. The classic example is the obese 5 yr. old.

My point is that at some stage in human growth and individual becomes responsible for the consequences of their own actions. On that day, they are no longer "locked" into unhealthy behaviors. On that day they are making a conscious choice to either remain in those behaviors, or make an effort to change those behaviors. If that person has the awareness that they are causing harm to others or to themselves, and they continue to engage in those behaviors, then that person is said to have a "character defect".

hmmm.... I see the word "defect" as descriptive and objective. My car has a defect in that it uses too much oil. The defect needs repair. My body has a defect in that my pancreas is unsynchronized with the rest of me, I could use a replacement. I don't see the word "defect" as a judgement of any kind, only as an evaluation.

Me thinks applying moral value to a particular word is a matter of _who_ is saying it and how. The kindest words can be delivered with cruelty and malice if the speakers heart is filled with anger.

hmmm.... I think we are disagreeing on our definitions once again. What you are describing is termed "repression" around here. That is completely "unconscious" and takes a good shrink to dig out.

To me the difference lies in whether it's an _inability_, in which case I call it "repression", or an _unwillingness_, in which case I call it "Denial". If I put my terms into your proposition, then I agree with you completely :-)

Well... _whose_ family system? The addict's or the co-dependant's? Or perhaps both? My position is that both people are responsible for the consequences of their actions. If they are capable of selecting a mate for marriage, then they are _capable_ of making an effort to better themselves.

As to how my opinions relate to the original questions of this thread, I'm going to jump ahead of myself and propose that "Love is a choice". I choose to love this addict I am besotten with, and I choose to step away from a dysfunctional marriage and learn how to be a better me. My long term goal is to use the tools of the recovery program to help me understand the dynamics of my behavior, and hopefuly to overcome my own fears and selfishness. If all goes well I may some day be able to stop loving her, and learn how to love somebody healthy.

Me thinks the only thing standing between you and me, GettingFree, is a dictionary ;-)

Mike :-)

JT

Hey Desert and GF...you two wanna get a room?? The subject is not the defining character defects...

cwohio

oh jt - i just about pooped a brick when i read your post!

GettingFree

Hey JT,

Just a tangent that started. Not a trivial one, but I know it was off-topic.

best
gf

Daffodil

OK, Here's what this ole lady does to keep the balance in my relationship

First I divide a page of notebook paper in half length wise.
On the left I put - and on the right +. yep you guessed it, now I write everything I can't stand, don't want to live with any more on the - side, now for everything I put on the - side I try to put something I like, love, or is just plain good on the + side of the paper. Try to be as honest as you possibly can be with both sides of the paper.

I have found for me that I must do this several times over a week or month before I really get a clear picture of what I am feeling and thinking. If I am having a really bad day the - side of the paper is full and I must really work to fill the + side and the same goes for a good day. That's why I must do it several times. I am as good of a chameleon as there comes. The truth of what I am thinking is sometimes hard to come by. Then I take the whole works to my sponsor. (She's very wise). She is the one who helps me hear what it is I am thinking so I don't throw the baby out with the bath water. I need some one who can help me find the balance in all my relationships.

As for what does love have to do with it? When we married (I believe) the horns on his head just FIT the holes in mine. For what ever the reason our journeys parallel each other for all the yesterdays and today. Tomorrow I, one more timewill ask my H.P. where is that I am to be today. I'll probably be told do the dishes. I really do my very best to live just one day at a time.

Having said all that there isn't any physical abuse in my relationship. There is money to pay the bills. He bends over back wards to be kind to every one. To keep peace at all cost. He drank on a daily basis for about 10 years always at home. He was the drink, eat dinner and fall asleep kind of drinker. Although he doesn't drink today I am not convinced he won't start again. That's up to him.

IF there was violence, or abuse I wouldv'e changed things..

So just for today I am here and tomorrow is a another day and another - and + sheet.

Love you all.

JT

Magichappens

Love is there. But the pain of watching a life being torn apart by the disease becomes unbearably painful. Sometimes there is a miracle that can save it, but can we hold on when we see that it is destroying us too? Am I strong enough in my recovery to stay sane in the middle of the storm? This has yet to be seen.

For the first time in years, I truly felt I might lose my sanity, my serenity, and my soul if I stayed. None of this has to do with how much or how little I love him. The wreck is looming. I'm still on the train.............................Magic

Daffodil

Oh, Magic, Do take care of yourself. Maybe this will help.

Today, help relieve me of the belief that I should be responsible for changing someone other than myself. Help for Helpers by Anonymous.

Even tho I love someone who I believe to be an alcoholic, I have to remember that my falling apart emotionally, mentally, and spiritually will not help anyone. I don't believe I was created and put here in this day and time to die for someone else's choices. It will not do one thing to help anyone mostly myself. BUT, if I can be an EXAMPLE of truly living life and loving it maybe just maybe others will find their own way there.

You can learn to stay in the eye of the storm one day at a time. One incident at a time. Sometimes I am the pebble and sometimes I am the ripple. After the pebble is thrown do we see it or do we see the ripple? I try to choose to be the ripple to the best of my abilities and pray that sooner or later someone will see the changes I've made in my life.

Love and prayers from one who cares.

DesertEyes

ooops. sorry :-( 'pologize for hijacking the thread.

Hey GF, send me a PM and we can continue our tangent. I'll bring pizza if you'll bring sodas

Mike :-)