Well, I met him for coffee.
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Originally Posted by trailmix 
Yeah I understand. You are also describing the flipside. Although you may feel you are mentally resilient (you obviously are) there is a limit. You may not even know you are reaching that limit until you are teetering on the edge of it.
I was that resilient person too. I think sometimes (and I'm not saying this is you, although it's worth pondering I suppose) we wonder if there is a limit, maybe even feel we are reaching that limit but don't know a different way, so carry on. I also liked to fix what I could, but never tried to "fix" someone else, I always knew that was not my place and not my call. I did, however, put up with a lot of bad treatment.
Eventually (over a long period of time) that all came crumbling down in a nice heap at my feet. I knew for sure I was reaching my limit when I started having panic attacks, completely out of the blue. I won't bore you will all the details of climbing my way back out of that, however what I learned was you aren't actually doing yourself or anyone else any favours. It's also a horrible waste of time having to patch all that up afterward. Kind of like holding a glass in your hand. If you think, wow this is getting heavy, I should put that down, but continue to hold on to it and eventually drop it and it breaks all over the floor. Much easier to set it down on the counter and think of a better way to do things than to clean up that glass on the floor, it takes a lot of time.
At the end of the day, your ex needs to stand on his own two feet. He is not a puppy or a child (although his emotional reactions do somewhat mirror a child's). Kids don't like boundaries either, they don't like to be told no and they don't like it when they don't get what they want when they want it. Neither does your ex.
How on earth can you help him with that? Honestly you can't, that's inside work that needs to be done on his part (undoubtedly with professional help) to shake that self-centered world view and grow up.
Perhaps don't make any more excuses for him? There is nothing he did that can be excused. He's just not a nice guy. Now do you have the resilience to put up with that again, maybe, but do you want to?
Wouldn't that energy be better spent on yourself. I mean that sincerely. Being resilient like you are often means pushing your own needs and wants aside and stuffing down a lot of stuff. Maybe take a look at that stuff. What do you want? Where do you want to put your energy? What is your future, who is your ideal partner? Are there things you want to do, travel? Join a drama group, learn to knit? I don't know! But there must be things where your smarts and your energy could be directed that don't involve fixing him.
There are a lot of people in this world that would welcome your help, maybe a school volunteer, maybe reading to people, shelters, long term care homes, volunteer opportunities that will allow you to use your caring nature in a positive way.
Oh and the empathy - that can be controlled, maybe that's another thing to look at as well? Misplaced compassion and empathy is - yeah well you already know how that goes lol.
I was that resilient person too. I think sometimes (and I'm not saying this is you, although it's worth pondering I suppose) we wonder if there is a limit, maybe even feel we are reaching that limit but don't know a different way, so carry on. I also liked to fix what I could, but never tried to "fix" someone else, I always knew that was not my place and not my call. I did, however, put up with a lot of bad treatment.
Eventually (over a long period of time) that all came crumbling down in a nice heap at my feet. I knew for sure I was reaching my limit when I started having panic attacks, completely out of the blue. I won't bore you will all the details of climbing my way back out of that, however what I learned was you aren't actually doing yourself or anyone else any favours. It's also a horrible waste of time having to patch all that up afterward. Kind of like holding a glass in your hand. If you think, wow this is getting heavy, I should put that down, but continue to hold on to it and eventually drop it and it breaks all over the floor. Much easier to set it down on the counter and think of a better way to do things than to clean up that glass on the floor, it takes a lot of time.
At the end of the day, your ex needs to stand on his own two feet. He is not a puppy or a child (although his emotional reactions do somewhat mirror a child's). Kids don't like boundaries either, they don't like to be told no and they don't like it when they don't get what they want when they want it. Neither does your ex.
How on earth can you help him with that? Honestly you can't, that's inside work that needs to be done on his part (undoubtedly with professional help) to shake that self-centered world view and grow up.
Perhaps don't make any more excuses for him? There is nothing he did that can be excused. He's just not a nice guy. Now do you have the resilience to put up with that again, maybe, but do you want to?
Wouldn't that energy be better spent on yourself. I mean that sincerely. Being resilient like you are often means pushing your own needs and wants aside and stuffing down a lot of stuff. Maybe take a look at that stuff. What do you want? Where do you want to put your energy? What is your future, who is your ideal partner? Are there things you want to do, travel? Join a drama group, learn to knit? I don't know! But there must be things where your smarts and your energy could be directed that don't involve fixing him.
There are a lot of people in this world that would welcome your help, maybe a school volunteer, maybe reading to people, shelters, long term care homes, volunteer opportunities that will allow you to use your caring nature in a positive way.
Oh and the empathy - that can be controlled, maybe that's another thing to look at as well? Misplaced compassion and empathy is - yeah well you already know how that goes lol.
I woke up this morning wondering "what am i even doing responding to him".
I closed that chapter 2 years ago. I finally felt 'healed' a couple months ago and I feel it all coming undone just over a week of talking to him again. The selfishness is astounding. In another post you made, you asked if he's immature. He is. 34 yrs old and he can't even talk about sex without giggling. He reminds me of a teenage boy who has mom picking up after him. Serious conversations, such as the 2 we had over coffee, were easily derailed by giggles and off topic jokes or stories.
When he asked me to go out this Friday, and when I said not a good idea, his response was telling. Then I see him online on the dating apps, which fine, I am too, but he literally took no time between us, her and now. Thats been a consistent pattern. I get not having friends and being lonely but dating apps to find women is not the way to grow.
I'm glad I gave this a bit of time to play out. I don't feel like I'll have 'what ifs' now. He is the same. Just sober.
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Location: Where I’ve longed to be all my life…..here, now.
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When we damage our brains with alcohol, the immediate gratification system has grown very strong. Stronger than the delayed gratification system.
He isn’t recovered, and neither are you.
Run toward your new life.
Leave that which broke you behind.
Watering a dead flower is useless.
Big hugs
He isn’t recovered, and neither are you.
Run toward your new life.
Leave that which broke you behind.
Watering a dead flower is useless.
Big hugs
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Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Blue Ridge Mountains
Posts: 816
We can feel our best mentally and physically, we can believe we are resilient and strong,
very good things. But just like dealing with an alcoholic or addict, it will always be our
actions that speak the truth. Not ending a relationship that is abusive, destructive and hurtful
to ourself is abandoning ourselves. Who has our back? The core of codependency recovery,
in my opinion, is forgiving ourselves (more important than our addict apologizing to us)
for making ourself endure the abuse, forgiving ourself
for believeing we could "cure or heal" someone else, forgive ourself for not making our
own needs a priority in a healthy way, and instead to expect reciprocity for our caring,
honesty, respect, and love. Just as the addict minimizes their illness, we minimize
ourself by expecting ourselves to give endlessly to our own detriment, why? We
could chose to be brave enough to have a healthy relationship with someone who
values us, respects us, is honest, loving and mature enough to grow with us.
Two people come together at the same level of emotional and mental health.
The "unhealthiness" manifests in different ways though.
very good things. But just like dealing with an alcoholic or addict, it will always be our
actions that speak the truth. Not ending a relationship that is abusive, destructive and hurtful
to ourself is abandoning ourselves. Who has our back? The core of codependency recovery,
in my opinion, is forgiving ourselves (more important than our addict apologizing to us)
for making ourself endure the abuse, forgiving ourself
for believeing we could "cure or heal" someone else, forgive ourself for not making our
own needs a priority in a healthy way, and instead to expect reciprocity for our caring,
honesty, respect, and love. Just as the addict minimizes their illness, we minimize
ourself by expecting ourselves to give endlessly to our own detriment, why? We
could chose to be brave enough to have a healthy relationship with someone who
values us, respects us, is honest, loving and mature enough to grow with us.
Two people come together at the same level of emotional and mental health.
The "unhealthiness" manifests in different ways though.
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Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 223
Originally Posted by Batgirl273
Yup!
I woke up this morning wondering "what am i even doing responding to him".
I closed that chapter 2 years ago. I finally felt 'healed' a couple months ago and I feel it all coming undone just over a week of talking to him again. The selfishness is astounding. In another post you made, you asked if he's immature. He is. 34 yrs old and he can't even talk about sex without giggling. He reminds me of a teenage boy who has mom picking up after him. Serious conversations, such as the 2 we had over coffee, were easily derailed by giggles and off topic jokes or stories.
When he asked me to go out this Friday, and when I said not a good idea, his response was telling. Then I see him online on the dating apps, which fine, I am too, but he literally took no time between us, her and now. Thats been a consistent pattern. I get not having friends and being lonely but dating apps to find women is not the way to grow.
I'm glad I gave this a bit of time to play out. I don't feel like I'll have 'what ifs' now. He is the same. Just sober.
I woke up this morning wondering "what am i even doing responding to him".
I closed that chapter 2 years ago. I finally felt 'healed' a couple months ago and I feel it all coming undone just over a week of talking to him again. The selfishness is astounding. In another post you made, you asked if he's immature. He is. 34 yrs old and he can't even talk about sex without giggling. He reminds me of a teenage boy who has mom picking up after him. Serious conversations, such as the 2 we had over coffee, were easily derailed by giggles and off topic jokes or stories.
When he asked me to go out this Friday, and when I said not a good idea, his response was telling. Then I see him online on the dating apps, which fine, I am too, but he literally took no time between us, her and now. Thats been a consistent pattern. I get not having friends and being lonely but dating apps to find women is not the way to grow.
I'm glad I gave this a bit of time to play out. I don't feel like I'll have 'what ifs' now. He is the same. Just sober.
Sorry I didn’t reply re justification versus straight up apology but others did say what I meant about that. The why sounded like a song and dance to make him seem like his actions were explainable in order to get you to be on his side as opposed to an apology given without a “but” or an agenda as something given to be healing to you without expecting anything back. That is what I wasn’t hearing in your description a week ago.
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Originally Posted by DiggingForFire
the good news is that even if you have a setback on your progress, you don’t undo the work you have done. It sucks now but it will NOT be two years of work to get back to feeling straight in your own head. You dipped your toe into the whirlpool but you didn’t jump in. Which is actually its own progress. You felt the pull but you are stepping back, which is huge!
Sorry I didn’t reply re justification versus straight up apology but others did say what I meant about that. The why sounded like a song and dance to make him seem like his actions were explainable in order to get you to be on his side as opposed to an apology given without a “but” or an agenda as something given to be healing to you without expecting anything back. That is what I wasn’t hearing in your description a week ago.
Sorry I didn’t reply re justification versus straight up apology but others did say what I meant about that. The why sounded like a song and dance to make him seem like his actions were explainable in order to get you to be on his side as opposed to an apology given without a “but” or an agenda as something given to be healing to you without expecting anything back. That is what I wasn’t hearing in your description a week ago.
And he's right. I will spiral if I continue to pick at scabs. His explanations are what they are. If he was telling me what I wanted to hear, I don't think he'd of admitted to some of what he did but who knows.
So. I've not kicked him out of my life just yet. I am observing. I have seen some big changes in how he communicates but that won't be enough to undo the damage. The toe is dipped it and out in minutes so we will see.
i'm grateful to have this forum and reddit. Its helping me think of all possibilities and keeping me guarded.
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Do you wonder (and I don't know, this is really a question) if you keep going back for answers, rather than some kind of indication that you could/would move forward in to a relationship with him again if the answers "settled" things for you?
I was wondering because I was listening to something the other night and the person (a psychologist) said sometimes when something happens to us (call it a bad relationship or any kind of trauma etc) that if you find after say, 18 months or longer, that thinking about certain aspects still gets you - i guess like gets you thinking about it or you still feel the trauma or event, you know how sometimes you can get a little bit of a jolt of adrenaline - that you need to address it.
The mind (and I have often thought this, but in a different way) wants to protect you and if you are still not in a place that you are satisfied that you would/could protect yourself, it's going to keep coming back to it - oh I haven't figured that out, why did that happen, why couldn't I deal with that by protecting myself etc etc. Basically it can't be settled until the mind is comfortable that you can protect yourself should you find yourself in a similar situation.
So the answer, of course, is to address it, not ignore it. I think there are probably different ways to approach it, focusing on what they did and figuring that out and how that hurt you (and how you could have mitigated that) or simply by addressing your need to protect yourself and how you can and should do that (which many people here refer to when saying the answers are your own, that you won't figure out his/her illogical behaviour necessarily).
Anyway, it just got me thinking that perhaps you keeping in touch with him is a way of healing that or attempting to figure out how it all came to be and settle it by figuring out how you can protect yourself going forward - and that doesn't necessarily mean with him.
I was wondering because I was listening to something the other night and the person (a psychologist) said sometimes when something happens to us (call it a bad relationship or any kind of trauma etc) that if you find after say, 18 months or longer, that thinking about certain aspects still gets you - i guess like gets you thinking about it or you still feel the trauma or event, you know how sometimes you can get a little bit of a jolt of adrenaline - that you need to address it.
The mind (and I have often thought this, but in a different way) wants to protect you and if you are still not in a place that you are satisfied that you would/could protect yourself, it's going to keep coming back to it - oh I haven't figured that out, why did that happen, why couldn't I deal with that by protecting myself etc etc. Basically it can't be settled until the mind is comfortable that you can protect yourself should you find yourself in a similar situation.
So the answer, of course, is to address it, not ignore it. I think there are probably different ways to approach it, focusing on what they did and figuring that out and how that hurt you (and how you could have mitigated that) or simply by addressing your need to protect yourself and how you can and should do that (which many people here refer to when saying the answers are your own, that you won't figure out his/her illogical behaviour necessarily).
Anyway, it just got me thinking that perhaps you keeping in touch with him is a way of healing that or attempting to figure out how it all came to be and settle it by figuring out how you can protect yourself going forward - and that doesn't necessarily mean with him.
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Originally Posted by trailmix
Do you wonder (and I don't know, this is really a question) if you keep going back for answers, rather than some kind of indication that you could/would move forward in to a relationship with him again if the answers "settled" things for you?
I was wondering because I was listening to something the other night and the person (a psychologist) said sometimes when something happens to us (call it a bad relationship or any kind of trauma etc) that if you find after say, 18 months or longer, that thinking about certain aspects still gets you - i guess like gets you thinking about it or you still feel the trauma or event, you know how sometimes you can get a little bit of a jolt of adrenaline - that you need to address it.
The mind (and I have often thought this, but in a different way) wants to protect you and if you are still not in a place that you are satisfied that you would/could protect yourself, it's going to keep coming back to it - oh I haven't figured that out, why did that happen, why couldn't I deal with that by protecting myself etc etc. Basically it can't be settled until the mind is comfortable that you can protect yourself should you find yourself in a similar situation.
So the answer, of course, is to address it, not ignore it. I think there are probably different ways to approach it, focusing on what they did and figuring that out and how that hurt you (and how you could have mitigated that) or simply by addressing your need to protect yourself and how you can and should do that (which many people here refer to when saying the answers are your own, that you won't figure out his/her illogical behaviour necessarily).
Anyway, it just got me thinking that perhaps you keeping in touch with him is a way of healing that or attempting to figure out how it all came to be and settle it by figuring out how you can protect yourself going forward - and that doesn't necessarily mean with him.
I was wondering because I was listening to something the other night and the person (a psychologist) said sometimes when something happens to us (call it a bad relationship or any kind of trauma etc) that if you find after say, 18 months or longer, that thinking about certain aspects still gets you - i guess like gets you thinking about it or you still feel the trauma or event, you know how sometimes you can get a little bit of a jolt of adrenaline - that you need to address it.
The mind (and I have often thought this, but in a different way) wants to protect you and if you are still not in a place that you are satisfied that you would/could protect yourself, it's going to keep coming back to it - oh I haven't figured that out, why did that happen, why couldn't I deal with that by protecting myself etc etc. Basically it can't be settled until the mind is comfortable that you can protect yourself should you find yourself in a similar situation.
So the answer, of course, is to address it, not ignore it. I think there are probably different ways to approach it, focusing on what they did and figuring that out and how that hurt you (and how you could have mitigated that) or simply by addressing your need to protect yourself and how you can and should do that (which many people here refer to when saying the answers are your own, that you won't figure out his/her illogical behaviour necessarily).
Anyway, it just got me thinking that perhaps you keeping in touch with him is a way of healing that or attempting to figure out how it all came to be and settle it by figuring out how you can protect yourself going forward - and that doesn't necessarily mean with him.
i've healed as much as I can without his help. Getting some of the answers he gave me, with respect to the gaslighting and crazy making feeling I had, has helped me soothe that part of me. The nights where I felt strongly something was up, I have held onto for years. He was able to confirm that my gut was right and that I wasn't crazy.
The 'old' using him, when i asked about a particular night back then, stared and lied to my crying, sobbing face. No emotion, no remorse, just straight lies and then blaming me for over reacting.
The 'new' sober and counselled him, when asked about this night again recently, admitted without hesitation that I was right and he did indeed do what I thought (this was the night i suspected he was with her and I was parked outside his house watching. He had told me he was at his parents, then told me he was drinking alone and ashamed. Turned out he was cheating, and watching a movie with her that night.)
This resulted in me weeping a bit and coming to terms with what I already knew. He then began to cry and saying he hated himself for the pain he's caused.
So its the things like this, that I'm observing, and you may have a point that I am trying to heal myself through him. It was a relief to hear the truth, as painful as it was, because it made me doubt my perception and caused tremendous anxiety. The conversations continue to happen, and so far he's taken all of my questions and jabs in stride. 'Old' him would have gotten defensive and told me to stop living in the past. He does still say "it is what it is/can't change the past" but he allows me to speak about it when needed and he will offer whatever he can to give me answers or refocus me when I start fixating on details that don't have a purpose.
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Originally Posted by Batgirl273
he will offer whatever he can to give me answers or refocus me when I start fixating on details that don't have a purpose.
His lies, his gaslighting, his mind games he played happily on you, this is part of what has you where you were/are. Please always remember that. He can be as sorry as the day is long (and I am glad he is), but that doesn't change.
The other thing is, who is he to tell you when you are fixating on details that don't have a purpose? Yes, he is entitled to his opinion, but it's up to you to determine what is important and what has a purpose, in conversations and in life.
I am glad you are getting the answers you want, however, if you trusted/trust yourself, you already had/have the answers.
Perhaps that is the most important thing. When someone plays those mind games, it can undermine your confidence in yourself, in your judgement, in your world view. He may be able to provide answers to some of those games he played, however he cannot fix your reluctance to trust yourself and your own judgement, that's up to you.
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Originally Posted by trailmix
Yes, either is possible and it would be hard to determine why.
His lies, his gaslighting, his mind games he played happily on you, this is part of what has you where you were/are. Please always remember that. He can be as sorry as the day is long (and I am glad he is), but that doesn't change.
The other thing is, who is he to tell you when you are fixating on details that don't have a purpose? Yes, he is entitled to his opinion, but it's up to you to determine what is important and what has a purpose, in conversations and in life.
I am glad you are getting the answers you want, however, if you trusted/trust yourself, you already had/have the answers.
Perhaps that is the most important thing. When someone plays those mind games, it can undermine your confidence in yourself, in your judgement, in your world view. He may be able to provide answers to some of those games he played, however he cannot fix your reluctance to trust yourself and your own judgement, that's up to you.
His lies, his gaslighting, his mind games he played happily on you, this is part of what has you where you were/are. Please always remember that. He can be as sorry as the day is long (and I am glad he is), but that doesn't change.
The other thing is, who is he to tell you when you are fixating on details that don't have a purpose? Yes, he is entitled to his opinion, but it's up to you to determine what is important and what has a purpose, in conversations and in life.
I am glad you are getting the answers you want, however, if you trusted/trust yourself, you already had/have the answers.
Perhaps that is the most important thing. When someone plays those mind games, it can undermine your confidence in yourself, in your judgement, in your world view. He may be able to provide answers to some of those games he played, however he cannot fix your reluctance to trust yourself and your own judgement, that's up to you.
And i should reword it. He's not telling me what doesn't have a purpose, rather he asks me what purpose something has when i begin to fixate on something a little too much, such as when I wanted to know how many times they were intimate (lol. It seems silly now because it doesn't matter, but i wanted to know if it was more or less than us because I was feeling he was unattracted to me). If I say "why did/how come/what was.." he will say something like "what are you trying to find out from asking that?" In an effort to find out what I want to know and for what reason. Sometimes its made me stop and think, oh, maybe it doesnt really matter or maybe i don't really want to know.
Anyways, i remain cautious and trusting myself as i assess this newfound sobriety. If i have ANY spidey senses or gut feelings, i'm bowing out. I've already had triggers with his phone, he's leaving it laying around but i'm thinking "he just turns off notifications anyway...." I will not live anxiously like that again so i'm really listening to myself.
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