Batgirl273

You're not wrong. He's always been good at saying the right things. He's very smooth and a great manipulator.

He was wrong to cheat. Its selfish, cruel and causes a lot of trauma. I have trust issues and a ton of pain over it. I also recognize it was not physical, it was emotional. He tends to seek comfort emotionally. Doesn't make it okay, and is just as hurtful. Especially when drinking, he wants the attention and company. He wants this sober as well, but i think he is more restrained in acting on it because then he thinks "I can't."

These are all things in my mind and that I have not forgotten. Thats whats making this difficult. Cheating has always been a hard line for me in a relationship because it breaks complete trust. It really destroys your entire foundation. I also said addiction was a hard line for me once. Yet here I am. My ex husband was a former drug addict who stayed sober, never cheated, but i couldn't wait to get rid of him. I was never 'in love' with him and married him out of my own selfish motives like thinking that was the best I could get and didn't want to be the old maid unmarried friend in my circle. It felt forced. Then I spent a few years alone, dated around alot, loved it and found who i was. Met my ex here and everything felt natural and meant to be. But he has all these other things. Sigh.

Free2bme888

Ugh, batgirl.

I was in a bad relationship, and I understand the WISH THE WAY IT IS/WAS can be stronger than reality. I got so much help here. You are here posting because your gut says it’s wrong.

It would be like me going back to drinking and thinking that the toxic relationship was cured because of abstinence.

seekingcalm

Thank you for posting...always helpful to all.
So much about him...not enough about you. No matter what he does, or where he is in is journey...is letting him back in bringing you peace? Can you be happy moving forward in your life without all the answers?
When I left my alcoholic, I 100% focused on myself, and how I felt and what was good for me. Those decisions have served me well over the years.
Just my own experience.

Batgirl273

Well, I am focused in myself and ehat I want. Do i want this? Don't know. How do I tell? Thats the thing.
I have come a long way from where I was when we broke up. I took 2 years to even begin healing and moving on. If you had asked me a month ago, (and he tried), it was absolutely never going back there again. BUT, thats when I thought he was still using and I never took him seriously because in the past it was all lip service and bullsht. I was so done with that choas.

Throw sobriety of almost a year at me and.. it changed things. I took him more seriously and could SEE some changes. So now its put me in a 'well shoot. Now how do I feel because I never thought i'd see this day?' Kind of position. Then again, if I had met a new partner and was in a happy, healthy relationship and this happened, I probably wouldn't think twice. But I'm not. And I'm not because part of me hasn't wanted to or allowed it because I'm not 110% over him still and I haven't met anyone even close to acceptable. Its a weird place to be in.

Batgirl273

Well, I am focused in myself and ehat I want. Do i want this? Don't know. How do I tell? Thats the thing.
I have come a long way from where I was when we broke up. I took 2 years to even begin healing and moving on. If you had asked me a month ago, (and he tried), it was absolutely never going back there again. BUT, thats when I thought he was still using and I never took him seriously because in the past it was all lip service and bullsht. I was so done with that choas.

Throw sobriety of almost a year at me and.. it changed things. I took him more seriously and could SEE some changes. So now its put me in a 'well shoot. Now how do I feel because I never thought i'd see this day?' Kind of position. Then again, if I had met a new partner and was in a happy, healthy relationship and this happened, I probably wouldn't think twice. But I'm not. And I'm not because part of me hasn't wanted to or allowed it because I'm not 110% over him still and I haven't met anyone even close to acceptable. Its a weird place to be in.

trailmix

I can't imagine knowing at this point. You can't trust him so how could you make a decision? Before getting in to a true friendship or relationship, it would take many months of non-committal get togethers and talking and etc etc, don't you think?

A lot of displays of actions, not just words.

Otherwise, if you just jump in, you are potentially setting yourself up to be exactly where you were before.

Batgirl273

Absolutely. if i go this route, it was be very hard to keep my insecurities in check and not lose my mind thinking he's out with other women, etc. But if either of us meet someone else we want to pursue, then there's the answer.

sage1969

Sometimes it's hard to know the right choices to make. Is it fair to yourself to base your life decisions about pursuing potential partners as an albeit poor comparison, but a comparison nonetheless to this ex? Is it fair to yourself to decide against continuing any sort of relationship with this ex based on what you might feel for a potential partner you might meet and wish to pursue when you haven't closed all the doors?

I guess my point here is that your decisions regarding this ex and anyone you might meet in the future should be clear, separate, and distinct decisions, not contingent upon each other, and I do realise you haven't met anyone else. From personal experience, I can say starting something new without finishing the previous relationship can get messy, and there's really a bit to sort due to the circumstances surrounding being cheated on and the dynamics of a relationship with an alcoholic / addict.

It might truly be easier and perhaps healthier to be certain what you want from life for yourself before you become involved in anything new (or before you resume the prior relationship).

DiggingForFire

I apologize in advance for the fact that this is probably overly specific in terms of telling you what to do. Of course, this is only my opinion and I don’t know you or this man so I could be off base.

My spidey senses are going off that he (1) may be not drinking but is very much focused still on getting what he wants and is spinning the yarn he thinks will work and (2) it really seems like you want to hear that he is actually a good idea now. Not from us, from him. The story you told of the coffee sounded like the kind of conversation I would have with my ex-husband when he was trying to get me back and while he didn’t stay away from drinking for longer than a few months, and I will take at face value that yours is not drinking, this doesn’t sound like somebody who is really on the other side, in a meaningful way. Gently, he doesn’t sound like he’s really doing the work, he sounds like he’s making excuses and trying to charm you. what I’m hearing is not taking responsibility, but rather justifications for bad conduct, and still focusing on what he wants and needs. I’m just not hearing the language of someone who really gets and takes responsibility for what he did to you emotionally.

I get that you’re seeing some of the good that you miss, but I’m not hearing real work on the cause of the misery- I mean that’s great he’s not drinking but all the other garbage he dished out I hear a lot of justification.

i’m not saying this from the perspective of AA telling people to wait a year, I never really connected with Al Anon or the concept of codependency. But it is very very early to try to say that the good part is driving the bus. This really feels like he’s just trying to get what he wants, which is you.

obviously, I wasn’t there and I don’t know what it feels like to miss this person so it’s easy for me to say “run away.” But I would think real hard about what he is doing to show your feelings are a core concern before you continue to engage with him, and consider maybe even talking to a therapist about what you’re feeling and thinking right now? Someone said above, you should not be settling for scraps when you deserve a feast. I said “THIS!’’ When I read that. If you were thinking about taking him back, and it sounds like you are, maybe try to think about whether this is what you would want, knowing that there is someone else in the world you would love without the hurt and the addiction. And if you still feel like this dude is the right one for you, that is good information. But if you’re considering him because it doesn’t feel like something truly loving and healthy and supportive is otherwise available, I’d leave this one on the table and just give it some time until you feel like you’re coming at it from a position of knowing what you deserve.

ErinGoBragh

Do you think your ex will show you genuine remorse for what he did? Do you think he'd be willing to be completely honest? What would he need to do for you to trust him again?

Batgirl273

No idea to all of the above lol. I don't know what genuine remorse looks like, i have no idea if he is capable of being completely honest, and to trust him again may never happen.

One thing thats been evident in talking to him since coffee is that he's still pretty self absorbed. He'll text me when he has something to say, but will leave me on read when I reply or I text him and say something he's not interested in (like he'll ask what i did today and i'll reply and then nothing). That behavior hasn't changed.

My gut is leaning more towards not going down this path again. I'm sensing nothing would be different except he's sober. The undesirable personality traits are likely still there and it seems like he's replaced his addiction to beer with an addiction to bike riding (which is great but he lives and breathes it now, thats all he talks about and seems disinterested in much else during our conversations besides showing off his bike or how far he biked today). I'm giving it time and doing it from a distance like some suggested. He'll be a year sober on new years. I think i can observe and keep a distance until after the holidays and get a better feel for where he's at, and whether we are even still compatible in other areas. For all i know, we are different people now because I know I've grown and have my self esteem back as well as must have standards (like honesty) for any romantic partner that I won't lower on again. He may be a very different person also since he was (admittedly) an alcoholic liar when I met him.

trailmix

There was another poster here at one time, her ex quit drinking (and I can't remember if they had broken up and got back together, but they were together) and his new thing was tennis, or some sport that you watch.

Anyway, he wanted her to go watch him play all the time, he lived and breathed this new addiction (as your ex is). If she would spend time looking at her phone while he was playing or when others were, he would reprimand her as being rude.

How do you reply when he talks "bike". Standard stuff like, that bike does look nice, or that's a long way to ride.

Honestly, he might not be a drunk or a liar anymore (I don't know) but he hasn't changed that self centered core, it's obvious in everything you share about him.

Batgirl273

Yeah agreed. He's always going to be self centered. Which then makes my head spin thinking about how he will always put his needs or happiness before anyone elses which makes him high risk to repeat things.

I respond with short answers. "Cool. Neat. Awesome. Good job". Then i change the subject. I also expect this new hobby may wear thin when he meets someone unless they are into the hobby. He told me he was joining a bike group once a week. Most healthy couples would embrace and encourage separate hobbies with groups. My immediate thought was "great. He'll emotionally cheat and bond with any single woman in that group".

I completely trust my gut to tell me what to do here. Its just taking some time to sort through the feelings and dodge his "look at how great i'm doing" type of comments which I'm sure is overcompensation to show me he's new and improved. Its been a roller coaster.

Free2bme888

Big hugs, batgirl. It’s hard.

Batgirl273

What does taking responsibility without justifications sound like though? He can and has said sorry, but then what? I guess i'm not sure what i should be expecting to hear. Apologies with "i'm sorry but" are never good. He's not doing that, but he is saying "i'm sorry. This is why i did it...." and he explains the reasons why his behavior is/was what it is. It sounds like excuses and justifications, but it also sounds like he understands his thought processes? I'm not sure. I'm really confused as to what accountability is supposed to sound like. There's nothing he could say that would make the pain better. Nothing he could say that would excuse his actions or make me feel sympathy for him. Part of restructuring your thought processes is cognitive behavioral change. If he identifies the actions, behaviors and consequences, change happens before the behavior step. So if he's telling me he started reaching out to another woman (action), then emotionally engaged with her and was creating intimacy and vulnerability, leading him to develop feelings (behavior), the consequence is him cheating and us breaking up. So if he could explain where he could change his patterns between action and behavior, thats the way to make change. So on one hand it sounds like he's explaining the thought processes he went through to do what he did, not necessarily justify it? Then on the other hand it does sound like excuses and the alcohol is blamed for alot of it. "Fog" as he says.

I need to figure out what real remorse and real change looks like. He's been so good at lip service and manipulation in the past.

Batgirl273

thank you. Its very hard because i don't any anyone to talk to about this. My family/friends hate him with a passion because of how he treated me, rightfully so. I don't want to mention him at all unless i see change and decide this is worth trying again so i'm a very long way from that. I have a therapist but she's very expensive lol.

sage1969

So really accountability without justification is taking responsibility for words and deeds, without explaining why you did it. The why doesn't really matter because it was said or done and can't be taken back. Accountability means you accept the consequences of what you said or did, with no excuses.

Any time you make a statement, then add "but," you are negating each word that was said before the "but."

Someone else used the phrase "half - hearted amends." I don't think your ex get what making amends is about. He's still not there yet. It's still all about him.

Batgirl273

So him saying sorry, and thats it? Thats a genuine apology?
I guess the justifications also come from me asking. Because I always want to know why. "How could you?" has been my question repeatedly. And "what made you want to do that?". I ask alot of questions. It helps me sort through whether he has insight into his behavior or not. I'll never get the real "why" probably, because he lies. But it helps me understand his thought process so i know whether he even understands it or if it is impulsive and compulsive.. "i don't know" has never been acceptable to me. Maybe asking the why's, hows, whats, isn't helpful? For myself, when I want to understand why I did or didn't do something, I ask myself those questions and it helps me change or reach a conclusion. I'm all about gathering info.

velma929

"... nothing would be different except he's sober."

It would be similar to the old story about giving a drunk coffee so he/she could drive home. What you get is a wide-awake drunk.

sage1969

I come from a non - Christian background, so my understanding of expressing apologies and asking forgiveness includes an integral part, which is changing behaviors and actions so the transgression is not done again. Without making those changes, making apologies and offering forgiveness mean little.

Perhaps if you are asking for explanations, then that is where it may sound like justifications on his part.