I guess you guys were right :(
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Originally Posted by StephEgan 
Yes I did - the rules were no secret drinking (not no drinking at all just not this secretive weird stuff),no punching things, no slamming doors and no telling me to eff off. He has been lovely and nice but he secretly drank yesterday that I know of and possibly other days that I didn't know of - impossible to say. There is no way that thing was wrong was there lol!! I need to speak to him later - right now everyone is up making dinner etc need to speak to him after child asleep and parents upstairs watching tv.
It worked for you, it worked for your Mom, it showed his BAC diminishing over time, what are the odds?
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I am so sorry you are going through this. Again. But, we are all on your side. So even when I say how many more "one more times" is it going to take before you take action, I am saying it with concern for your and your daughter's welfare. Alcoholism is progressive. It gets worse. It does not moderate itself. The times he drinks "normally" out in the open do not tell the whole story and never will. Talk more to his mother and father--they very likely have tons of knowledge about the disease as well. I hear that you feel conflicted because you vowed "better or worse". Only you can make the decision of whether to accept him as he is and that his drinking will worsen with time, or not. I think you deserve better, but only what you think matters. Good luck.
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Originally Posted by dbyrer
I am so sorry you are going through this. Again. But, we are all on your side. So even when I say how many more "one more times" is it going to take before you take action, I am saying it with concern for your and your daughter's welfare. Alcoholism is progressive. It gets worse. It does not moderate itself. The times he drinks "normally" out in the open do not tell the whole story and never will. Talk more to his mother and father--they very likely have tons of knowledge about the disease as well. I hear that you feel conflicted because you vowed "better or worse". Only you can make the decision of whether to accept him as he is and that his drinking will worsen with time, or not. I think you deserve better, but only what you think matters. Good luck.
had a chat with him for the first time since 6 am. He is adamant he only had a few beers. Like ADAMANT. I said it is pretty much impossible to believe that. This machine is professional grade and the decline over time also made logical sense. Still he is adamant he only had a few beers?! Surely that is impossible ?! Ywt somehow a tiny hit of me wonders if he is telling the truth - hence I feel crazy ! Because logically that makes no sense.
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Originally Posted by trailmix
There is no way, nooooo way it was wrong.
It worked for you, it worked for your Mom, it showed his BAC diminishing over time, what are the odds?
It worked for you, it worked for your Mom, it showed his BAC diminishing over time, what are the odds?
And I know that is ridiculous
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Steph....all he has to do is stick to his story and it will cause you to doubt everything that you know.
Here in the States, we have a song that perfectly describes his technique....
Here is a link.....
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...72&FORM=WRVORC
Here in the States, we have a song that perfectly describes his technique....
Here is a link.....
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...72&FORM=WRVORC
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Join Date: Nov 2016
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Originally Posted by StephEgan
Exactly. It makes no sense yet this tiny sliver is like hmm maybe THIS TIME he is telling the truth.
And I know that is ridiculous
And I know that is ridiculous
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It sounds like he's being asked to do the impossible. You want him to be honest about his drinking - but he's drinking a lot, and he simply isn't able to moderate his drinking to your standards or desires. If he doesn't hide his drinking, you'll see how much it is.
I suspect he re-filled the beer bottles with vodka. He may not even realize how much it was, much like 'topping off' a cup of coffee or glass of wine.
What's 'a few beers?' Two? Six? AH could drink eight or ten or a dozen a day.
I suspect he re-filled the beer bottles with vodka. He may not even realize how much it was, much like 'topping off' a cup of coffee or glass of wine.
What's 'a few beers?' Two? Six? AH could drink eight or ten or a dozen a day.
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So sorry you are in this situation. You keep saying how you feel crazy. Yes! This is textbook “crazy-making” behavior or gaslighting. Stop doubting yourself- the breathalyzer is correct, you are correct. He is lying to you. It doesn’t mean he purposely wants to hurt you, this is just what alcoholics do and it really hurts when the person you love does it to you.
I saw a play once called Gas Light. The husband continuously lies to his wife (ex hides her tea cup and when she asks where it went he says there was no tea cup etc) until she goes insane. This is where the term comes from I think. Believing his lies will make you crazy. Maybe journal some of these things so you have a solid written record, just for you, when he tries to do it again. This helped my sanity.
I saw a play once called Gas Light. The husband continuously lies to his wife (ex hides her tea cup and when she asks where it went he says there was no tea cup etc) until she goes insane. This is where the term comes from I think. Believing his lies will make you crazy. Maybe journal some of these things so you have a solid written record, just for you, when he tries to do it again. This helped my sanity.
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Originally Posted by velma929
It sounds like he's being asked to do the impossible. You want him to be honest about his drinking - but he's drinking a lot, and he simply isn't able to moderate his drinking to your standards or desires. If he doesn't hide his drinking, you'll see how much it is.
I suspect he re-filled the beer bottles with vodka. He may not even realize how much it was, much like 'topping off' a cup of coffee or glass of wine.
What's 'a few beers?' Two? Six? AH could drink eight or ten or a dozen a day.
I suspect he re-filled the beer bottles with vodka. He may not even realize how much it was, much like 'topping off' a cup of coffee or glass of wine.
What's 'a few beers?' Two? Six? AH could drink eight or ten or a dozen a day.
I sniffed the bottles in the recycle bin yesterday - no vodka. He had a mickey somewhere he has downed I think.
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Originally Posted by StephEgan
Yes i agree - asking him to be honest is asking the impossible.I've been watching lectures about that on a youtube chanel which is quite good. I find it weird that even with a breathalyser though ... he's still not admitting it but I guess it is really deeply ingrained to lie about this. Probably not even a consious decision at this point.
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Steph, I've been through all the lies. XAH stood in front of me and "explained" why it didn't MATTER if the checkbook balanced, why it was simply an issue of FAITH if the numbers in the savings accounts didn't match what I expected and that the withdrawals shown were "bank errors." I heard any number of other truly outrageous lies, and like you, I always thought "is it possible that he's right? Why would anyone say something so crazy and unbelievable unless it was somehow true?" He even stood in front of me on one occasion and said "why do you have to UNDERSTAND everything? Why can't you just accept that this is the way it is?" Little did I know that that particular pronouncement might have been the truest thing he ever said to me!
When someone is a very honest person, they find it hard to believe that someone else would lie, especially the prodigious flow of BS that comes from an active A. This was my situation (not patting myself on the back--I have TONS of flaws, just that lying is not one of them) and possibly yours too. I simply could not conceive of someone living in such a completely alternate universe and so, time and again, I convinced myself that I was the one who was wrong, even in the face of overwhelming evidence otherwise.
I don't know if you read the links I posted some time ago to another thread of yours. I suspect not, b/c it's pretty clear early on that my experience is not going to tell you what you want to hear. The main thing I think you'd benefit from is the night I took him to the ER and saw the BAC reading there. That was MY moment of truth, and it changed everything. Like you, I realized he wouldn't have been sober even the following morning--maybe below the legal level to drive, but not sober. So much fell into place--why he always took breaks at a different time from coworkers (so he could drink), why he always chewed a particular watermelon-flavored gum (it smelled almost exactly like the Polish blackberry brandy he drank), why he would pick a fight w/me soon after we left to walk the dogs many AMs (so he could return to the house and drink), and most of all, why I could almost never tell if he'd been drinking. He'd say "how bad can it be if you can't even TELL?" Well, I couldn't TELL b/c I hadn't seen him truly and totally SOBER in probably YEARS!
I asked, innocently enough, one morning whether or not he'd stopped at a particular new gas station/convenience store since it opened. After a pause, he said no. I thought no more of it. Several months later, when he had one of his occasional "fits of honesty", when he'd confess all kinds of stuff to me, he told me what HIS side of that exchange had been like. He said that when I asked, his brain had gone into high gear. "Why is she asking? Does she KNOW I've been in there to buy booze or cigs? Did she see me? I don't use the credit card, only cash, so she can't know from the receipts...so should I say yes, I have been in just in case she DOES know, and then I can say I was buying gum or something? Or will that lead to more questions? Should I just say no?" and on and on. This was another real eye-opener for me, as sometimes when I asked a really simple, really innocent question of him, there'd be this looooong pause, to the point where I'd say "did you hear me?" (and actually, as time went on, he'd simply not answer me when I asked things, forcing me to either drop the question or ask again, to the point where I actually had him get his hearing checked). Now I knew why--it bought him time to go through this process of figuring out what his answer should be, in order to keep me quiet.
In the first year or so after we split up, I was hit by revelation after revelation regarding his actions. For instance, I had always appreciated that he was so diligent about taking the trash and recyclables down to the road on pickup day, but thought he was more upset than the situation warranted when trash day was windy--it's annoying to have the container blow over, but not so much so that it's worth fretting about all night. Well, the reason he was so diligent was that the recyclable container held all his alcohol bottles, and the reason he worried about the wind was that if the container spilled, I'd see those bottles rather than just the closed container.
It was a complicated world where his sun was alcohol and his moon was keeping everything quiet, out of my sight.
I keep a folder titled "The Wisdom of SR" where I save sayings, paragraphs, or entire posts that have been especially helpful to me. I'm going to share two here. They're not profound, but they ARE, in my opinion at least, absolutely true. You might not like them, but I wish you'd at least consider them.
When a problem seems to have no solution, you may not have a problem at all, just a solution you don’t like.
Sometimes giving someone a second chance is like giving them an extra bullet for their gun b/c they missed you the first time.
When someone is a very honest person, they find it hard to believe that someone else would lie, especially the prodigious flow of BS that comes from an active A. This was my situation (not patting myself on the back--I have TONS of flaws, just that lying is not one of them) and possibly yours too. I simply could not conceive of someone living in such a completely alternate universe and so, time and again, I convinced myself that I was the one who was wrong, even in the face of overwhelming evidence otherwise.
I don't know if you read the links I posted some time ago to another thread of yours. I suspect not, b/c it's pretty clear early on that my experience is not going to tell you what you want to hear. The main thing I think you'd benefit from is the night I took him to the ER and saw the BAC reading there. That was MY moment of truth, and it changed everything. Like you, I realized he wouldn't have been sober even the following morning--maybe below the legal level to drive, but not sober. So much fell into place--why he always took breaks at a different time from coworkers (so he could drink), why he always chewed a particular watermelon-flavored gum (it smelled almost exactly like the Polish blackberry brandy he drank), why he would pick a fight w/me soon after we left to walk the dogs many AMs (so he could return to the house and drink), and most of all, why I could almost never tell if he'd been drinking. He'd say "how bad can it be if you can't even TELL?" Well, I couldn't TELL b/c I hadn't seen him truly and totally SOBER in probably YEARS!
I asked, innocently enough, one morning whether or not he'd stopped at a particular new gas station/convenience store since it opened. After a pause, he said no. I thought no more of it. Several months later, when he had one of his occasional "fits of honesty", when he'd confess all kinds of stuff to me, he told me what HIS side of that exchange had been like. He said that when I asked, his brain had gone into high gear. "Why is she asking? Does she KNOW I've been in there to buy booze or cigs? Did she see me? I don't use the credit card, only cash, so she can't know from the receipts...so should I say yes, I have been in just in case she DOES know, and then I can say I was buying gum or something? Or will that lead to more questions? Should I just say no?" and on and on. This was another real eye-opener for me, as sometimes when I asked a really simple, really innocent question of him, there'd be this looooong pause, to the point where I'd say "did you hear me?" (and actually, as time went on, he'd simply not answer me when I asked things, forcing me to either drop the question or ask again, to the point where I actually had him get his hearing checked). Now I knew why--it bought him time to go through this process of figuring out what his answer should be, in order to keep me quiet.
In the first year or so after we split up, I was hit by revelation after revelation regarding his actions. For instance, I had always appreciated that he was so diligent about taking the trash and recyclables down to the road on pickup day, but thought he was more upset than the situation warranted when trash day was windy--it's annoying to have the container blow over, but not so much so that it's worth fretting about all night. Well, the reason he was so diligent was that the recyclable container held all his alcohol bottles, and the reason he worried about the wind was that if the container spilled, I'd see those bottles rather than just the closed container.
It was a complicated world where his sun was alcohol and his moon was keeping everything quiet, out of my sight.
I keep a folder titled "The Wisdom of SR" where I save sayings, paragraphs, or entire posts that have been especially helpful to me. I'm going to share two here. They're not profound, but they ARE, in my opinion at least, absolutely true. You might not like them, but I wish you'd at least consider them.
When a problem seems to have no solution, you may not have a problem at all, just a solution you don’t like.
Sometimes giving someone a second chance is like giving them an extra bullet for their gun b/c they missed you the first time.
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Originally Posted by Spiderweb
So sorry you are in this situation. You keep saying how you feel crazy. Yes! This is textbook “crazy-making” behavior or gaslighting. Stop doubting yourself- the breathalyzer is correct, you are correct. He is lying to you. It doesn’t mean he purposely wants to hurt you, this is just what alcoholics do and it really hurts when the person you love does it to you.
I saw a play once called Gas Light. The husband continuously lies to his wife (ex hides her tea cup and when she asks where it went he says there was no tea cup etc) until she goes insane. This is where the term comes from I think. Believing his lies will make you crazy. Maybe journal some of these things so you have a solid written record, just for you, when he tries to do it again. This helped my sanity.
I saw a play once called Gas Light. The husband continuously lies to his wife (ex hides her tea cup and when she asks where it went he says there was no tea cup etc) until she goes insane. This is where the term comes from I think. Believing his lies will make you crazy. Maybe journal some of these things so you have a solid written record, just for you, when he tries to do it again. This helped my sanity.
I'm starting to understand more what is likely going through his mind - I feel bad for him - he has this whole turmolic inner world going on doesn't he?! It's no wonder he forgets so many things I think are important I guess!
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Originally Posted by honeypig
Steph, I've been through all the lies. XAH stood in front of me and "explained" why it didn't MATTER if the checkbook balanced, why it was simply an issue of FAITH if the numbers in the savings accounts didn't match what I expected and that the withdrawals shown were "bank errors." I heard any number of other truly outrageous lies, and like you, I always thought "is it possible that he's right? Why would anyone say something so crazy and unbelievable unless it was somehow true?" He even stood in front of me on one occasion and said "why do you have to UNDERSTAND everything? Why can't you just accept that this is the way it is?" Little did I know that that particular pronouncement might have been the truest thing he ever said to me!
When someone is a very honest person, they find it hard to believe that someone else would lie, especially the prodigious flow of BS that comes from an active A. This was my situation (not patting myself on the back--I have TONS of flaws, just that lying is not one of them) and possibly yours too. I simply could not conceive of someone living in such a completely alternate universe and so, time and again, I convinced myself that I was the one who was wrong, even in the face of overwhelming evidence otherwise.
I don't know if you read the links I posted some time ago to another thread of yours. I suspect not, b/c it's pretty clear early on that my experience is not going to tell you what you want to hear. The main thing I think you'd benefit from is the night I took him to the ER and saw the BAC reading there. That was MY moment of truth, and it changed everything. Like you, I realized he wouldn't have been sober even the following morning--maybe below the legal level to drive, but not sober. So much fell into place--why he always took breaks at a different time from coworkers (so he could drink), why he always chewed a particular watermelon-flavored gum (it smelled almost exactly like the Polish blackberry brandy he drank), why he would pick a fight w/me soon after we left to walk the dogs many AMs (so he could return to the house and drink), and most of all, why I could almost never tell if he'd been drinking. He'd say "how bad can it be if you can't even TELL?" Well, I couldn't TELL b/c I hadn't seen him truly and totally SOBER in probably YEARS!
I asked, innocently enough, one morning whether or not he'd stopped at a particular new gas station/convenience store since it opened. After a pause, he said no. I thought no more of it. Several months later, when he had one of his occasional "fits of honesty", when he'd confess all kinds of stuff to me, he told me what HIS side of that exchange had been like. He said that when I asked, his brain had gone into high gear. "Why is she asking? Does she KNOW I've been in there to buy booze or cigs? Did she see me? I don't use the credit card, only cash, so she can't know from the receipts...so should I say yes, I have been in just in case she DOES know, and then I can say I was buying gum or something? Or will that lead to more questions? Should I just say no?" and on and on. This was another real eye-opener for me, as sometimes when I asked a really simple, really innocent question of him, there'd be this looooong pause, to the point where I'd say "did you hear me?" (and actually, as time went on, he'd simply not answer me when I asked things, forcing me to either drop the question or ask again, to the point where I actually had him get his hearing checked). Now I knew why--it bought him time to go through this process of figuring out what his answer should be, in order to keep me quiet.
In the first year or so after we split up, I was hit by revelation after revelation regarding his actions. For instance, I had always appreciated that he was so diligent about taking the trash and recyclables down to the road on pickup day, but thought he was more upset than the situation warranted when trash day was windy--it's annoying to have the container blow over, but not so much so that it's worth fretting about all night. Well, the reason he was so diligent was that the recyclable container held all his alcohol bottles, and the reason he worried about the wind was that if the container spilled, I'd see those bottles rather than just the closed container.
It was a complicated world where his sun was alcohol and his moon was keeping everything quiet, out of my sight.
I keep a folder titled "The Wisdom of SR" where I save sayings, paragraphs, or entire posts that have been especially helpful to me. I'm going to share two here. They're not profound, but they ARE, in my opinion at least, absolutely true. You might not like them, but I wish you'd at least consider them.
When a problem seems to have no solution, you may not have a problem at all, just a solution you don’t like.
Sometimes giving someone a second chance is like giving them an extra bullet for their gun b/c they missed you the first time.
When someone is a very honest person, they find it hard to believe that someone else would lie, especially the prodigious flow of BS that comes from an active A. This was my situation (not patting myself on the back--I have TONS of flaws, just that lying is not one of them) and possibly yours too. I simply could not conceive of someone living in such a completely alternate universe and so, time and again, I convinced myself that I was the one who was wrong, even in the face of overwhelming evidence otherwise.
I don't know if you read the links I posted some time ago to another thread of yours. I suspect not, b/c it's pretty clear early on that my experience is not going to tell you what you want to hear. The main thing I think you'd benefit from is the night I took him to the ER and saw the BAC reading there. That was MY moment of truth, and it changed everything. Like you, I realized he wouldn't have been sober even the following morning--maybe below the legal level to drive, but not sober. So much fell into place--why he always took breaks at a different time from coworkers (so he could drink), why he always chewed a particular watermelon-flavored gum (it smelled almost exactly like the Polish blackberry brandy he drank), why he would pick a fight w/me soon after we left to walk the dogs many AMs (so he could return to the house and drink), and most of all, why I could almost never tell if he'd been drinking. He'd say "how bad can it be if you can't even TELL?" Well, I couldn't TELL b/c I hadn't seen him truly and totally SOBER in probably YEARS!
I asked, innocently enough, one morning whether or not he'd stopped at a particular new gas station/convenience store since it opened. After a pause, he said no. I thought no more of it. Several months later, when he had one of his occasional "fits of honesty", when he'd confess all kinds of stuff to me, he told me what HIS side of that exchange had been like. He said that when I asked, his brain had gone into high gear. "Why is she asking? Does she KNOW I've been in there to buy booze or cigs? Did she see me? I don't use the credit card, only cash, so she can't know from the receipts...so should I say yes, I have been in just in case she DOES know, and then I can say I was buying gum or something? Or will that lead to more questions? Should I just say no?" and on and on. This was another real eye-opener for me, as sometimes when I asked a really simple, really innocent question of him, there'd be this looooong pause, to the point where I'd say "did you hear me?" (and actually, as time went on, he'd simply not answer me when I asked things, forcing me to either drop the question or ask again, to the point where I actually had him get his hearing checked). Now I knew why--it bought him time to go through this process of figuring out what his answer should be, in order to keep me quiet.
In the first year or so after we split up, I was hit by revelation after revelation regarding his actions. For instance, I had always appreciated that he was so diligent about taking the trash and recyclables down to the road on pickup day, but thought he was more upset than the situation warranted when trash day was windy--it's annoying to have the container blow over, but not so much so that it's worth fretting about all night. Well, the reason he was so diligent was that the recyclable container held all his alcohol bottles, and the reason he worried about the wind was that if the container spilled, I'd see those bottles rather than just the closed container.
It was a complicated world where his sun was alcohol and his moon was keeping everything quiet, out of my sight.
I keep a folder titled "The Wisdom of SR" where I save sayings, paragraphs, or entire posts that have been especially helpful to me. I'm going to share two here. They're not profound, but they ARE, in my opinion at least, absolutely true. You might not like them, but I wish you'd at least consider them.
When a problem seems to have no solution, you may not have a problem at all, just a solution you don’t like.
Sometimes giving someone a second chance is like giving them an extra bullet for their gun b/c they missed you the first time.
Sounds awful in their brains - truly horrendous really! There are no winners in these situations. I feel like I am going to stick with what I said and give him til the New Year and reassess then. I set a boundary, but it was a ridiculous boundary now that I better understand what is going on. I set that boundary not fully understanding how bad his issue is - if he had a BAC of 0.23 on a Sunday afternoon and wasn't slurring his words or stumbling around, he is drinking A LOT! The idea that a threat of sepration could stop that addiction immediately is ludicrous. I do think there are signs he does want to change though - MANY signs. I will give him the time I had set in my head and maybe follow the advice of this woman on how to draw him out. If I give him the boot, he'll spiral and start drinking every single night - his life will be ruined and I'll never forgive myself. I may need to legally separate in the meantime though, to protect my assets but that will also mean a change of behaviour in the home so we are indeed legally separated. So no more sex I guess! And no cooking dinner together and a few other things that they look for in order for you to be actually legally separated while living together.
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D*mn I guess work choose a poor day to keep me so busy, I'm sorry I was not online for you steph. This situation is so painful, and I know how difficult of a struggle it is to come to terms with the truth laid before you. I know this will ramble a bit, but I'll try to capture how I had to come to terms with my decision for divorce emotionally. I think all of us have struggled with the type of hurt and doubts you're feeling right now.
Trailmix is exactly correct, you need to extract that sliver of doubt from your mind. You have a tool that has been tested time and time again showering you correct results, but it just so happens to be wrong (consistently so I might add) for him alone? That doubt you feel is the war between your sensible, fair self, the logic right in front of you, your fears of losing what is known to unknown struggles ahead, and your desperate desire for another chance to save your partner. You said yourself how firmly you believe marriage is a commitment of heart and soul; you must love, support, and protect your partner through thick and thin. You believe this so firmly yourself, that's it's just unthinkable that the person you feel this way about does not treat you so in turn.
That's the problem with love unfortunately. The aspects that make it so powerful between two supportive people can also blind someone to the toxicity before them. Love is so emphasized in our culture as the end all be all of life. Fairy tales end with the couple happily ever after. Movies end when the guy gets the girl. Etc. We're so indoctrinated to see life as incomplete unless it's with a soul mate that we lose sight of how important it is to be our own individual. You are not two halves to a whole, you are two whole individuals working towards a common goal.
I know you love your husband, and I'm sure he still loves you too. That's what makes it so hard. You will look into his eyes, and he will tell you he still loves you and wants this to work, and you will see the truth in them. Then he will go to drink and lie about it all over again. It's maddening. You see the truth of his love, yet he still hurts you. It makes you doubt if you're able to see anything true at all. That's why this disease is so terrible. Addiction is built from a careful framework of lies that allow the addict to maintain a semblance of normality while their addiction covers up their inner pain. Eventually the negative effects accumulate though, and the framework begins to crumble.
It helped me to realize that loving my AH did not mean that I was forever bound to him in the permanent fashion I had built up in my mind of that relationship I defined earlier. Sometimes loving someone needs to take on new forms. When I realized I no longer trusted him, how could I stay? He had been unable to hold up his part of the relationship due to his illness, and once my trust was broken, I realized I could no longer carry both parts of it myself. That's what you've been doing this whole time. You have been caring for yourself, your daughter, and him. You've done your due diligence of giving him chances and acted fairly. Has he done the same for you?
I know how heartbreaking the decision to leave is. It's terrible, and one you must come to terms with on your own. You must decide how long you're willing to abide his lies and mistreatment. Choosing to shift your focus to your own care and your daughter's care is not the same as stopping loving him. You need to love and care for yourself first, before you can do the same for someone else.
Trailmix is exactly correct, you need to extract that sliver of doubt from your mind. You have a tool that has been tested time and time again showering you correct results, but it just so happens to be wrong (consistently so I might add) for him alone? That doubt you feel is the war between your sensible, fair self, the logic right in front of you, your fears of losing what is known to unknown struggles ahead, and your desperate desire for another chance to save your partner. You said yourself how firmly you believe marriage is a commitment of heart and soul; you must love, support, and protect your partner through thick and thin. You believe this so firmly yourself, that's it's just unthinkable that the person you feel this way about does not treat you so in turn.
That's the problem with love unfortunately. The aspects that make it so powerful between two supportive people can also blind someone to the toxicity before them. Love is so emphasized in our culture as the end all be all of life. Fairy tales end with the couple happily ever after. Movies end when the guy gets the girl. Etc. We're so indoctrinated to see life as incomplete unless it's with a soul mate that we lose sight of how important it is to be our own individual. You are not two halves to a whole, you are two whole individuals working towards a common goal.
I know you love your husband, and I'm sure he still loves you too. That's what makes it so hard. You will look into his eyes, and he will tell you he still loves you and wants this to work, and you will see the truth in them. Then he will go to drink and lie about it all over again. It's maddening. You see the truth of his love, yet he still hurts you. It makes you doubt if you're able to see anything true at all. That's why this disease is so terrible. Addiction is built from a careful framework of lies that allow the addict to maintain a semblance of normality while their addiction covers up their inner pain. Eventually the negative effects accumulate though, and the framework begins to crumble.
It helped me to realize that loving my AH did not mean that I was forever bound to him in the permanent fashion I had built up in my mind of that relationship I defined earlier. Sometimes loving someone needs to take on new forms. When I realized I no longer trusted him, how could I stay? He had been unable to hold up his part of the relationship due to his illness, and once my trust was broken, I realized I could no longer carry both parts of it myself. That's what you've been doing this whole time. You have been caring for yourself, your daughter, and him. You've done your due diligence of giving him chances and acted fairly. Has he done the same for you?
I know how heartbreaking the decision to leave is. It's terrible, and one you must come to terms with on your own. You must decide how long you're willing to abide his lies and mistreatment. Choosing to shift your focus to your own care and your daughter's care is not the same as stopping loving him. You need to love and care for yourself first, before you can do the same for someone else.
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Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 259
Originally Posted by StephEgan
If I give him the boot, he'll spiral and start drinking every single night - his life will be ruined and I'll never forgive myself. I may need to legally separate in the meantime though, to protect my assets but that will also mean a change of behaviour in the home so we are indeed legally separated.
Steph, if you kick him out, he might respond by spiraling into a long bender. He might drive drunk. He might hurt himself or someone else. There's a lot he might do.
Here's the thing though: he might do that stuff already. The only reason you know he's still drunk in the mornings now is from testing it. You think he wasn't driving in that state before now? Getting along so long driving a bit drunk is a mix of practice and luck.
You are going down the slippery slope fallacy right now, and need to take a step back. "If I do this, then this will happen, then this, then this..." You are not in control of his choices, and you are not responsible for the consequences of his actions. If he decides to drink, you have no influence over that choice. Do not let fear of the consequences for his choices hold you captive in an unhealthy situation.
If you'd like, you can read through the threads I started while still updating about things happening with my AH. So many times I was paralyzed by the fear that my actions would chain out of control and lead him to kill himself. For years I tried everything. I tried co-drinking with him to help monitor his intake: it didn't work. He'd just drink vodka after I went to bed. (Seriously idk wtf it is with vodka. It's like they can hide a godd*mn 55 gallon drum of it under a bed or something.) I tried cleaning up after him. Lecturing. Begging. Demanding. Dragging him to treatment. Everything and more. He always chose to drink, and continued to struggle with suicidal ideation. No amount of loving him could change that. I think the only reason he wasn't killed by police during their standoff was because they really didn't believe he had a gun.
You need to separate in your mind the causal relationship you feel between your choices and his consequences. You are not responsible for them. You have made clear your boundaries, and the rules for your home and your relationship. He is the one who chose to drink, and the consequence of that choice is he no longer gets to join you in those. If he decides to drink as a response to these consequences, it still isn't on you. You're not the one pouring the alcohol down his throat, he is.
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This^^. A thousand, million times THIS. Cookie's post is gold. Dandy has said essentially the same thing.
You still seem to believe that you are somehow in control. As someone who likes to feel she's driving the bus too, I get that, but in order to change your life, you have to change your life.
Here's what you are missing, again and again:
YOU ARE NOT IN CONTROL OF HIM OR HIS DRINKING. EVER. AT ALL. You can buy all the Breathalyzers in the world, find him rides to work, tell yourself that he really WANTS to change even though he's not doing one single thing to actually DO that, but YOU ARE STILL NOT IN CONTROL OF HIM OR THE ALCOHOL.
And I guarantee you, whatever you know or think you know NOW is going to turn out to be the tip of the iceberg.
We all make choices. All those choices carry consequences.
You still seem to believe that you are somehow in control. As someone who likes to feel she's driving the bus too, I get that, but in order to change your life, you have to change your life.
Here's what you are missing, again and again:
YOU ARE NOT IN CONTROL OF HIM OR HIS DRINKING. EVER. AT ALL. You can buy all the Breathalyzers in the world, find him rides to work, tell yourself that he really WANTS to change even though he's not doing one single thing to actually DO that, but YOU ARE STILL NOT IN CONTROL OF HIM OR THE ALCOHOL.
And I guarantee you, whatever you know or think you know NOW is going to turn out to be the tip of the iceberg.
We all make choices. All those choices carry consequences.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2021
Posts: 250
Originally Posted by Cookie314
I'm know I'm double posting, but I saw this after I finished my message and the page refreshed, and wanted to comment.
Steph, if you kick him out, he might respond by spiraling into a long bender. He might drive drunk. He might hurt himself or someone else. There's a lot he might do.
Here's the thing though: he might do that stuff already. The only reason you know he's still drunk in the mornings now is from testing it. You think he wasn't driving in that state before now? Getting along so long driving a bit drunk is a mix of practice and luck.
You are going down the slippery slope fallacy right now, and need to take a step back. "If I do this, then this will happen, then this, then this..." You are not in control of his choices, and you are not responsible for the consequences of his actions. If he decides to drink, you have no influence over that choice. Do not let fear of the consequences for his choices hold you captive in an unhealthy situation.
If you'd like, you can read through the threads I started while still updating about things happening with my AH. So many times I was paralyzed by the fear that my actions would chain out of control and lead him to kill himself. For years I tried everything. I tried co-drinking with him to help monitor his intake: it didn't work. He'd just drink vodka after I went to bed. (Seriously idk wtf it is with vodka. It's like they can hide a godd*mn 55 gallon drum of it under a bed or something.) I tried cleaning up after him. Lecturing. Begging. Demanding. Dragging him to treatment. Everything and more. He always chose to drink, and continued to struggle with suicidal ideation. No amount of loving him could change that. I think the only reason he wasn't killed by police during their standoff was because they really didn't believe he had a gun.
You need to separate in your mind the causal relationship you feel between your choices and his consequences. You are not responsible for them. You have made clear your boundaries, and the rules for your home and your relationship. He is the one who chose to drink, and the consequence of that choice is he no longer gets to join you in those. If he decides to drink as a response to these consequences, it still isn't on you. You're not the one pouring the alcohol down his throat, he is.
Steph, if you kick him out, he might respond by spiraling into a long bender. He might drive drunk. He might hurt himself or someone else. There's a lot he might do.
Here's the thing though: he might do that stuff already. The only reason you know he's still drunk in the mornings now is from testing it. You think he wasn't driving in that state before now? Getting along so long driving a bit drunk is a mix of practice and luck.
You are going down the slippery slope fallacy right now, and need to take a step back. "If I do this, then this will happen, then this, then this..." You are not in control of his choices, and you are not responsible for the consequences of his actions. If he decides to drink, you have no influence over that choice. Do not let fear of the consequences for his choices hold you captive in an unhealthy situation.
If you'd like, you can read through the threads I started while still updating about things happening with my AH. So many times I was paralyzed by the fear that my actions would chain out of control and lead him to kill himself. For years I tried everything. I tried co-drinking with him to help monitor his intake: it didn't work. He'd just drink vodka after I went to bed. (Seriously idk wtf it is with vodka. It's like they can hide a godd*mn 55 gallon drum of it under a bed or something.) I tried cleaning up after him. Lecturing. Begging. Demanding. Dragging him to treatment. Everything and more. He always chose to drink, and continued to struggle with suicidal ideation. No amount of loving him could change that. I think the only reason he wasn't killed by police during their standoff was because they really didn't believe he had a gun.
You need to separate in your mind the causal relationship you feel between your choices and his consequences. You are not responsible for them. You have made clear your boundaries, and the rules for your home and your relationship. He is the one who chose to drink, and the consequence of that choice is he no longer gets to join you in those. If he decides to drink as a response to these consequences, it still isn't on you. You're not the one pouring the alcohol down his throat, he is.
I really understand that none of those things will work at all - I do get that now although it has taken me a month to read enough and watch enough lectures to understand it. I don't, however, think that means I definitely cannot help him. I've been binging on this woman's videos - she's a highly educated and experienced addiction counsellor and she has a very different take on it to mainstream ......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYNvx95nSQ0
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Join Date: Sep 2021
Posts: 250
Originally Posted by honeypig
This^^. A thousand, million times THIS. Cookie's post is gold. Dandy has said essentially the same thing.
You still seem to believe that you are somehow in control. As someone who likes to feel she's driving the bus too, I get that, but in order to change your life, you have to change your life.
Here's what you are missing, again and again:
YOU ARE NOT IN CONTROL OF HIM OR HIS DRINKING. EVER. AT ALL. You can buy all the Breathalyzers in the world, find him rides to work, tell yourself that he really WANTS to change even though he's not doing one single thing to actually DO that, but YOU ARE STILL NOT IN CONTROL OF HIM OR THE ALCOHOL.
And I guarantee you, whatever you know or think you know NOW is going to turn out to be the tip of the iceberg.
We all make choices. All those choices carry consequences.
You still seem to believe that you are somehow in control. As someone who likes to feel she's driving the bus too, I get that, but in order to change your life, you have to change your life.
Here's what you are missing, again and again:
YOU ARE NOT IN CONTROL OF HIM OR HIS DRINKING. EVER. AT ALL. You can buy all the Breathalyzers in the world, find him rides to work, tell yourself that he really WANTS to change even though he's not doing one single thing to actually DO that, but YOU ARE STILL NOT IN CONTROL OF HIM OR THE ALCOHOL.
And I guarantee you, whatever you know or think you know NOW is going to turn out to be the tip of the iceberg.
We all make choices. All those choices carry consequences.
So now that I know what I'm looking for, you reckon I'm going to figure out like loads more stuff that has been going on?
There has been this pair of tiny underwear on the laundry line in the house for a while that keeps reappearing - they are not mine and the label says "large" but they don't look like kids underwear - they are black and silky - I'm 150lbs so not huge but these things would not fit me and my mother is much larger than me so yesterday I asked her where they had come from. She said she found them in the bedroom in the trailer - the trailer that we camp at on the weekends. My parents lived in that trailer nearly a year while they were building their gorgeous new house and after that, we spent weekends up there for 2 summers. The only people who have slept in there are myself, my 9 yo, her BFF who is 10 and is larger than me (no way these are hers as I've seen the packs of undies she wears - cotton Hanes) and my husband. So where did these underwear appear from when my parents were closing down the trailer? I can't get it out of my head now - whose are these? Were they stuck somewhere in the ether of the trailer from the old owners? My parents did lift up the master bed to look for mice so did they escape when that happened? Or has my husband gone to the trailer with someone?! I have searched his phone and there is nothing in there that is concerning at all. I know his brother who is an alcoholic has gone to meet women for sex - women he met online - and was caught by both his ex girlfriend and his current wife (I believe this is what has happened with the current wife as they nearly split recently and his ex girlfriend told me about this stuff he was up to). I cannot picture this from my husband at all so figure these underwear must have been released when the bed was moved - but I can't shake the creepy feeling I have now. But he goes to work and comes home from work 5 days/week - I see his paychecks he is at work every day and is too lazy to even buy condoms for us - finally last weekend he bought a box for the first time in like a year! So surely this can't be what he was up to - he only had sex with 2 women bfore he met me - he isn't some sex crazed weirdo?! But yeah I see the tip of the ice berg now and I am scared but at the same time, i don't know anything for sure and maybe I do know most of it now basically just from looking back and realising he was drunk when he was passing out all of those times and when he was slurring words and even when he was mad slamming doors etc likely drunk or johnsing.....
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