a look at it all from this side

Old 08-05-2021, 06:25 PM
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a look at it all from this side

I called my dad today. After many years of no contact, I attempted to make repairs with him starting about 2 years ago. He is unable to drink anymore because he has medications he must take, but I never rely on that as a guarantee that any addict will do as they're meant . . .

Anyway, what came to mind as I listened to him talk was that alcoholics really do change their entire physiology, that there truly is irreparable damage done. Even though he is sober now, there is not a chain of logic or meaningfulness, mainly a great deal of rambling, with some added suspicion of others. I do feel some sadness knowing that his creative and brilliant mind has changed not for the better, and that he really is better off living on his own in the country with a few pets than with contact with other people. I accept that he has found a way to make a sober life work and that is his choice how he does that, but I'm saddened all the same of what alcohol and addiction robs from each of us.
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Old 08-05-2021, 07:06 PM
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First off I'm very sorry to hear about the grief you're experiencing coming to terms with your father's deficits from drinking for so long. Can I ask when he is with other people what ends up happening what is his deficit in terms of interacting with people instead of the countryside and his dogs?

I'm going to tell you something that is funny. I used to believe my alcoholic ex-boyfriend that he just couldn't learn English and he just couldn't learn how to properly read or write in his own language because of an injury he experienced when he was younger. Me being codependent I didn't see anything wrong with this and I found it endearing actually and I ended up picking up a lot of the slack when it came to documentation. There were so many things that ended up having to help him out with not just because he didn't speak English but figuring out how to do most things with all on me regardless of the language.

For the year he pursued me he could barely remember my name and kept on changing it to other names that were similar to mine. I attributed it to his head injury and to him being a happy-go-lucky guy. The sad part is I understand now it was his alcoholism destroying his short-term memory. He was unable to learn English because of that as well and yes while his upbringing as a poor kid in Mexico did affect his ability to read and write the reason why he couldn't do it now was because of his alcoholism. It makes me wonder how much of an adult they are and how much of the endearingness how to do with nurturing someone who is functionally a child. The saddest part is it's not a choice or a personality Quirk or just inner work that hasn't been done it has to do with their brain chemistry is being degraded over time there's no coming back from it.


alcoholism and Other Drug addictions are self-destructive so it's not a surprise that the mine degrades over time but it is a shock for me to think about how in denial and how attractive to be quite honest it was at the time. I say attractive because I think it made me feel needed and allowed me to I feel like we had this deep connection
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Old 08-05-2021, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by NewHeart View Post
First off I'm very sorry to hear about the grief you're experiencing coming to terms with your father's deficits from drinking for so long. Can I ask when he is with other people what ends up happening what is his deficit in terms of interacting with people instead of the countryside and his dogs?
He had never met my children, so he came to visit when one of them had a milestone celebration. He made it through family dinner with just us with some difficulty, but then left town afterwards and never went to the graduation, never called to say he was leaving, nothing. During conversations he is still willing to attempt to subvert relationships (he attempted to draw me into some scrap he's having with my sister). So he manages to make through a daily routine but with other people struggles between what is appropriate, what is acceptable, and old patterns.

Originally Posted by NewHeart View Post
The saddest part is it's not a choice or a personality Quirk or just inner work that hasn't been done it has to do with their brain chemistry is being degraded over time there's no coming back from it.
I don't think there is coming back from it. He had an incredible mind, an artistic talent with woodworking and metalworking, and all of that is gone now. He did not recognise photos of me (I'd sent a packet of photos of me and my children earlier in the summer). So I check in with him now and then by phone, I'm not certain what he retains or if he even remembers.

Originally Posted by NewHeart View Post
alcoholism and Other Drug addictions are self-destructive so it's not a surprise that the mine degrades over time but it is a shock for me to think about how in denial and how attractive to be quite honest it was at the time. I say attractive because I think it made me feel needed and allowed me to I feel like we had this deep connection
For me, this was the parent that never showed up and left me waiting by the door, that made it clear that I was a girl (and not the son he wanted) and to dress / speak / " behave" like a girl, and for whom none of my accomplishments were ever enough, at least until he started being sober just a few years ago, so basically my lifetime, I was not important to him. I have not felt needed. The biggest codependency behaviors I learnt early on were how to be quiet, not attract attention, and to locate the nearest windows and doors.
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Old 08-05-2021, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by NewHeart View Post
I'm going to tell you something that is funny. I used to believe my alcoholic ex-boyfriend that he just couldn't learn English and he just couldn't learn how to properly read or write in his own language because of an injury he experienced when he was younger. Me being codependent I didn't see anything wrong with this and I found it endearing actually and I ended up picking up a lot of the slack when it came to documentation. There were so many things that ended up having to help him out with not just because he didn't speak English but figuring out how to do most things with all on me regardless of the language.
NewHeart, I've been thinking about this part of what you said. I know I accepted my XABFs behaviors at first as endearing also, when he confused things or when I needed to prompt his memory. Until right before the breakup when I specifically said alcohol was the problem and deal breaker for me, it was so easy for him to make an excuse and for me to accept it as reasonable. He was always very genial and pleasant, again up to when I said specifically alcohol was the problem (then was when I got to see the mean streak).

I guess that they are expert manipulators, and good at identifying how to get what they want from us.
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Old 08-05-2021, 09:22 PM
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Interesting discussion, thanks.

As I worked my program, I came to realise that traits I saw as endearing were really my co-dependency in play and other people would view these traits as red flags rather than endearing.

I think we are attracted to people we pity. That we can feel superior too. Ouch!

I feel that alkies and codies are master manipulators. We read each other and provide what the other side wants. Both sides hook each other in with manipulation. BOTH! It is a two way street.

Ouch again. Not pleasant to acknowledge this in ourselves.
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Old 08-05-2021, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by PeacefulWater12 View Post
Interesting discussion, thanks.

As I worked my program, I came to realise that traits I saw as endearing were really my co-dependency in play and other people would view these traits as red flags rather than endearing.

I think we are attracted to people we pity. That we can feel superior too. Ouch!

I feel that alkies and codies are master manipulators. We read each other and provide what the other side wants. Both sides hook each other in with manipulation. BOTH! It is a two way street.

Ouch again. Not pleasant to acknowledge this in ourselves.
PeacefulWater, you are so right. What I now see as red flags, I did not see when I was young nor in adulthood through my multiple relationships. I can see where my attitudes and habits, communications and behaviors were codependent and manipulative. I accept responsibility for my choices, and I'm attempting to end the multigenerational cycle with me.

As I move forward and start making new connections and friendships, I'm being extremely cautious about healthy boundaries. I'm also seeing my children choosing to make healthy boundaries also, so I'm hopeful.
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Old 08-05-2021, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by sage1969 View Post
PeacefulWater, you are so right. What I now see as red flags, I did not see when I was young nor in adulthood through my multiple relationships. I can see where my attitudes and habits, communications and behaviors were codependent and manipulative. I accept responsibility for my choices, and I'm attempting to end the multigenerational cycle with me.

As I move forward and start making new connections and friendships, I'm being extremely cautious about healthy boundaries. I'm also seeing my children choosing to make healthy boundaries also, so I'm hopeful.
Hello Sage, this journey of learning is painful and yet so very liberating. It opens up the world to us. It stops with me too. I come from generations of codies/addicts. What a joy for you to see your children making healthier choices.

Like you, I am cautious about my boundaries as I am moving forward. I am now repelled by what used to attract me. I am very thankful for this and am enjoying it.

A big thing I notice about healthy people is that they don't try and rush me. Unhealthy people are push push push push. Big red flag!

Healthier people are so much nicer to be around than unhealthy ones. Comfortable. No eggshell walking!!

Glad you are here sharing your journey. Take care.
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Old 08-06-2021, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by PeacefulWater12 View Post
Interesting discussion, thanks.

As I worked my program, I came to realise that traits I saw as endearing were really my co-dependency in play and other people would view these traits as red flags rather than endearing.

I think we are attracted to people we pity. That we can feel superior too. Ouch!

I feel that alkies and codies are master manipulators. We read each other and provide what the other side wants. Both sides hook each other in with manipulation. BOTH! It is a two way street.

Ouch again. Not pleasant to acknowledge this in ourselves.

Absolutely profound insights, Many thanks!!!
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Old 08-06-2021, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by sage1969 View Post
Even though he is sober now.........
Maybe another poster has already addressed this, but here goes:
There is a difference between true sobriety and just abstinence, although one has to abstain to GET sober.
I have heard of the "dry drunk" in AA circles. They might not have had a drink in years, but they are p$@@ed off at the world.
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Old 08-06-2021, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Eauchiche View Post
Maybe another poster has already addressed this, but here goes:
There is a difference between true sobriety and just abstinence, although one has to abstain to GET sober.
I have heard of the "dry drunk" in AA circles. They might not have had a drink in years, but they are p$@@ed off at the world.
A good point . . . though he's more careful to not be as blatantly racist as he used to be, he's still essentially pissed off with the world, there's just new labels.

I keep an arm's length. He asked for my forgiveness, and I gave it.
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