LovelyKaya33333

I was able to have a civil conversation with my AH. It was a night where I owned my part and apologized about my part. I admitted to him that it was easier to focus on his big issues than my issues. He was shocked he said that I admitted that but of course he didn’t own his part that much. I woke up and thought about it today and I don’t feel the need to talk to him anymore… like I don’t think I will have to make myself not text him … if that makes sense …I think owning my part is more than enough. He made some analogy about needing to have his freedom and cage open so that he feels freedom and then he would have not felt controlled. While I understand a bit of what he was saying … his being drunk everyday made it so trusting him to be free was impossible most of the time. Especially with the drinking and driving… the inappropriate behavior he had with his ex… the emotionally abusive things he would say to me when drunk. But here is the good part.. for the first time EVER in my whole 7 years I didn’t feel the need to tell him … I didn’t feel the want to prove my point … I didn’t care if he didn’t hear or see me. I was proud of myself for the work I’ve done and I feel like I’m becoming free from him.

trailmix

You should be proud and I am happy for you that you are feeling better now.

The part above, do you mean it was just impossible to trust him? I mean his freedom is his, so no can control that (unless he ends up in jail!).

PeacefulWater12

I hear you, Kaya. I did similar with my AH and I found it incredibly helpful to me. I was able to let his behaviour go a lot and just focus on me.

I think we (co-dependents and alcoholics) become so tightly twisted around each other. Like a tight ball of string. I felt I had unravelled part of myself from him. A great relief for me.

Good work. I hear the relief in you.

LovelyKaya33333

I meant to drink and not drive, spend our money on things drunk, be inappropriate with his ex. Go to strip clubs. Things that would violate the essence of marriage for me. He called me controlling but it was confusing and felt a lot like gas lighting. Having a problem with him driving our cars under our car insurance is a deal breaker. Going to bikini bars when he tells me he’s at work. Ect ect. I felt like he lied all the time about things that were deal breakers to me.

trailmix

I completely understand.

The thing is though, while you may not like any of those things he did and refuse to go along with them, we can't control anyone but ourselves. Trying to will always put us on the back foot.

So what's to be done? Certainly talking about those things with a SO is entirely the right thing to do, if the person refuses to be party to an agreement not to do them, there is nothing we can do. That's where you step in to co-dependent territory, when you continue to try to control the outcome of the situation or try to force a rule.

The bottom line is, if you have your boundaries, for instance, I will not be in a relationship with someone who goes to bikini bars (or lies or is an alcoholic or drives while drunk etc) those are yours, your standards, your boundaries. What you choose to do if any of those boundaries are crossed is completely within your control. That could be anything from, if I find he is an alcoholic I will leave the relationship to if he drinks in the house I will go to a hotel for the night, completely up to you.

I'm sure you discussed this many times and he probably said he would "do better", but that was never going to be the case.

LovelyKaya33333

Yes exactly... My anger came from me attempting to set boundaries and him walking all over them. Me having boundaries made him feel controlled. There were multiple times when I said..."If you drink everyday this just won't work. I don't want to be with an active alcoholic anymore. and he would say he understood... then a week of not drinking ( or what I later found out he was hiding it) then he would drink right in front of me... and i would say... "I thought we weren't drinking" cause I said I wouldn't drink with him to be supportive... and he wold then say that I was controlling him... So it wasn't controlling so much as he used that word to not have to hold up to his promises. Unfortunately, being married to him, meant that our lives were legally combined... him getting a DUI or crashing one of our cars would come back on me as well... So there were logistical things ( like I am sure with all couples ) that I just couldn't say things about. It is obviously why we are no longer together ... I have filed for divorce so in 6-8months I won't have to ever deal with his decisions effecting me. When he moved across the country with my step kids I now won't be having a relationship with them so how he decides to parent ( especially when he is drinking) won't be something I am subjecting to see and be involved in.

I did realize that being in a marriage with someone that was drunk most of the time meant I fixated on that and didn't have to deal with my own feelings because when he is doing emergency mode stuff ... now that it is just me I am working on just me and it is relieving to be honest.

I still don't think he understands just how much drinking daily played a role in the chaos and me not trusting his decision making ... But I don't care to be right anymore. Trying to talk logic to a person who is active in drinking is exhausting and so I would rather own my stuff... and be at peace with knowing he won't own his. If he did he would have to stop drinking and that probably won't happen anytime soon.

I don't know why owning my part brought me such peace. But it really did. It was like "why argue anymore... it doesn't matter anymore" cause there is zero chance I would date him again or stop the divorce process. Possibly if I somehow talked to him in a few years and he had a good amount of sobriety I would be willing to be his friend... but that is so far down the line and I don't think he will stop drinking. That is my gut feeling. He lost his first wife and drinking played a huge role... now me ( his second wife ) and he is still saying it is because I "just couldn't be happy"... so it is so far off... I guess it was a proud moment for me for dealing with this last month with grace and strength. Thank you by the way. Your advice and feedback is always so on point and thoughtful

PeacefulWater12

I think it comes down to acceptance of who he is. That we cannot change them. Serenity Prayer stuff. We can only change ourselves.

With that comes freedom.

LovelyKaya33333

Exactly... And as much as this first month has been painful having him live across the country gives me a sense of peace now... It is much easier to accept who he is when it isn't directly effecting me... Like trying to have sex with me drunk.... or passing out by noon snoring when I am trying to work. Or realizing he took the car drunk... Not having the daily drinking all the time in my face feels way less anxious for me

PeacefulWater12

I am glad you are feeling less anxious, Kaya, and that you have a sense of peace.

velma929

He made some analogy about needing to have his freedom and cage open so that he feels freedom and then he would have not felt controlled.

In his way, he's right. As destructive as those behaviors can be / are, someone else imposing restrictions on him is trying to control him, it's not a boundary. It means he's not being accepted for who he is. Granted, accepting drunk driving as normal and natural would mean someone has a really low bar for what's acceptable in a marriage, most people want more. Boundaries are about refusing to partner with someone who does these things, not marrying someone and insisting he/she change.

My Dad lost his license to drive permanently after his vehicular manslaughter conviction. He went through a process to try to get it back (even though, in his eighties and reaction times slowing down, there were multiple reasons why he shouldn't have been behind the wheel of a car.) I asked my mom why she was 'letting' him do that. She [wisely] said she couldn't control him and couldn't control everything he did, and didn't want to spend what time they had left arguing with him about it. Smart woman. Dad never did get his license back.

LovelyKaya33333

. I agree and disagree. I was really blind to alcoholism when I married him. While I understood he drank too much I didn’t understand the progression in what it does to someone’s mind. How it changes their personality. I hadn’t seen the Hyde much yet. After 7 years together and 3 married I realized what it actually was which is why I separated from him last summer for 6 months. After I separated from him he came back with a ton of promises about sobriety. I thought well maybe the 6 months apart did us some good. Then the promises obviously were just that promises. So I felt duped. That’s where the anger or control came in. I felt like I had attempted to set boundaries in order to reconcile. He agreed to them. Then broke everyone of the promises so I let him know again I couldn’t be with him if he was drinking like he was. So he left. The way he left was what really hurt the most. I felt like I tried and he said **** it. So I think I was following through with my boundaries in a lot of ways. It’s tricky … when you love someone and want to be with them. They tell you what you have been dying to hear… (there is relief in that)… so you get back together all giddy and hopeful … then a few months later you come to find out that was just smoke up your butt essentially…. So you have to relive separation again and refiling for divorce. So I guess I get confused on if it’s controlling or having basic standards of living. I don’t care what he does now because it won’t effect me directly financially or mentally (not being around him)anymore … so I’m trying to figure out the difference. I do know I didn’t handle myself the best all the time either and in the last month I’ve realized the things I needed to own. But the drinking and driving thing. The lying about being at work when he was at bikini bars ect and the many other things I still feel are extremely damaging to a marriage. Which is one of the many reasons we aren’t together anymore.

SparkleKitty

The big difference between boundaries and rules are that boundaries are built, maintained and upheld by you and you alone. No one "agrees" to them. People DO transgress them, but the onus then is on you to deal with that transgression. If, for example, my boundary is "I will not live with or be in a relationship with someone who is intimate with other people," and I discover my partner has been intimate with someone else, then it's MY job to uphold my boundary by getting out of the relationship or living situation.

I'm not sure you followed through on your boundary by "letting him know you couldn't be with him if he was drinking like he was," (instead of just leaving because he broke his promise, again) so much as you told himyour expectation that he would change if he wanted to stay in relationship (which is more like an ultimatum or a rule). He chose not to take you up on that, perhaps because HE has a boundary that he doesn't want to be with someone who threatens to leave every time he drinks. Right or wrong, healthy or not, that's his right. It IS tricky, to be sure. But it all gets easier with practice.

edoering

I think what we’re all reflecting on is that those two things aren’t mutually exclusive. And more than that, being controlling in my opinion doesn’t make someone a morally bad person—it just doesn’t work.

I think most people would agree your basic standards for marriage/living are totally reasonable ones! Whether or not it’s controlling is in the “how” any of us try to meet those standards, I think.

Leaving him for not meeting those standards = not controlling. Because you aren’t trying or expecting change from him. Simply changing yourself and your circumstances to get you out of a situation where your standards aren’t met, and into one where they are or can be met. If he changes for himself, really and truly, he won’t feel like you are controlling him because it came from within.

Trying to “help him” (or make him) meet those standards = controlling. One could argue, isn’t it a good thing to help a loved one not get DUI’s or endanger their lives or the lives of others? Maybe. But it is still controlling (or trying to control). That’s why I think it’s important to remove “morality” from the concept of controlling. Even if what you want for him is arguably “right,” that doesn’t mean it isn’t also controlling to try to get him to change to be or do the good thing. (The one exception being if someone asks for your help to achieve a goal they have for themselves).

As for his broken promises, I have a mantra that I’ve been using A LOT recently for a similar reason—new information, new choices. You didn’t know he didn’t mean those promises to change! How could you? He may have even meant them at the time. You believed he was trying to change for himself this time, so you made the choice to give it a chance. You’ve had new information from him that shows he’s not actually interested in changing. So you made a new choice. That’s the best we can do.

So I guess, who cares if he thinks you are controlling? You know now that being more or less controlling won’t change him either way. It doesn’t change that he won’t be a husband who lives up to your very reasonable standards of living—of safety, respect, honesty, no drama, etc. It wouldn’t change him refusing to own up to his issues.

You got this.

trailmix

It can be confusing for sure. They are your basic standards, it's only controlling if you try to make him comply with them.

If you keep in mind that you have a problem with his drinking, he doesn't (despite what he might of said, his actions prove otherwise).

An example of a rule would be: You must cut down on your drinking and never drink in our home again. So there is the rule, in order for this rule to work, he has to agree and actually do it. So that takes the result completely out of your control. You are just asking him to do something. Whether he does it or not - nothing you can do about that.

An example of a boundary would be: If he does not cut down on his drinking or if he drinks in our home again, I am leaving. The difference is that is YOUR boundary and completely within your control. He doesn't actually get a say in this or what you do about your boundary. Boundaries are just for you, you can share them with people are not if you like, but they are yours.

That's freeing.

LovelyKaya33333

I DID leave him or he did the leaving the house part because he didn't uphold his promises. That is why he now lives 2,000 miles away and I filed for divorce a few weeks ago. Last summer we separated for 6 months. When he came back in January ( so only 5 months ago) he told me he was sober and had been sober... when I realized that wasn't true I gave him a few more months of trying to "work on it"... Found out he was drinking again. 10 days later told him I couldn't go through this roller coaster. The next day he packed up and gave me an hour notice before he left drunk...with my step kids in the car and drove across country to live 2,000 miles away. So I DID hold up to my boundary... it doesn't make it less painful though... I still am heartbroken that a 7 year relationship is over. I still feel like he chose alcohol over me and our marriage... I still am left feeling messed up... yes maybe he has that boundary and that is his right to uphold that. I think this is splitting hairs a bit... If I had just walked out the door cause he was drinking....vs saying I can't be with you if the drinking continues... I mean same thing. It is the same thing as if someone is cheating and the person says... in order for me to gain trust back I would need us to go to therapy and the person agrees but then doesn't want to go so the person that got cheated on leaves... cause the boundary was broken... I am honestly proud of myself for saying I can't be around this chaos and drinking anymore. That to me was a big moment. Doesn't mean I can't still feel hurt

LovelyKaya33333

edoering: Yes exactly... I had a boundary that I needed met in order to want to be in a relationship/marriage with him. He agreed with it when he was sober... he started drinking again... then got sober again... when he is sober even for a week his rational mind understands what I am saying and he is very convincing that he wants it too... When he is on a binge he gets annoyed with the promises he made so his drunk self is feeling controlled.... his sober self wants us to work and seemingly understands the boundaries and actually agrees with them... I understand this is his words only now and not in his actions........which is why I filed for divorce. I am pretty sure by the hidden bottles I found after he left that he was never actually sober... he was maintaining.. I think he would need medical detox to be sober given the level of daily alcohol he consumed... 10-20 drinks a day, everyday from what I saw. possibly more ... anyway my point is I set a boundary for myself... it wasn't one he could meet... we are now getting divorced. However it is extremely painful to feel like he looks at it as simple as "we didn't work cause she was controlling"... although I see my part in it... for sure... it is not that simple as we all know... I am just happy to know what I know moving forward and the next relationship I will for sure know what my boundaries are in terms of having alcohol in my life.

ironwill

Hi LK,

You did everything you could to try and save him, gave him a multiple chances to get help, let him back into you life, set up boundaries, laid the ground work to what you would accept in your life. This shows how much you loved him The problem was that his love for alcohol was greater then his love for you .

You are right that it is painful to see 7 years of your life come tumbling down around you (more of a land slide as fast as it happened). Just know you should be proud of the work you have done. It takes a strong person to get through the things you have had to endure. The papers are filed for divorce and you can start to get your life back to one that is not filled with a active alcoholic. Take it one day at a time. Do the stuff you have been putting off that makes you happy and complete. Keep coming back here for advice or just to vent. We are here for you. Keep being strong.

trailmix

Yes, it's still hard and it still hurts, regardless of any boundaries or rules or any other thing.

I don't think anyone is trying to split hairs here, I'm sure not. I really do think you are handling this so well. The only point I wanted to make is that boundaries are completely in your control, not the other persons. That sets YOU free - never mind them. You don't ever have to rely on other people to fit your needs.

That isn't just about romantic relationships, that's about life. For instance, one of my boundaries is I won't put up with people not being nice to me. That doesn't mean they have to fawn over me lol - but I don't take people snipping at me or being mean to me. I either exit that situation or I call them on it, each and every time.

In your case you shared your boundary with him, which is fair since the result is life changing.

He's still an ass at the end of the day.

LovelyKaya33333

Thank you for this... yes his love for alcohol was greater than his love for me. It hurts to admit that but it is very true. What I am coming to terms with is that doesn't make me unlovable it just makes him an alcoholic... I know that in my head but in my heart it is hard

LovelyKaya33333

Yes I agree. I am working on boundaries with others as well... My good friends are amazing and totally understand boundaries. I think happened upon a very good friend group of over the years. My brides are a whole other story... So I would for sure like to work on that more for nothing other than the sanity of my staff and myself ...lol Thank you for this He is still an ass at the end of the day.