NewHeart

I have been researching co dependency and feel that I am stuck in the intermittent reinforcement cycle of disappointment and fantasy.

I met this man while out salsa dancing. The drinking seemed normal as part of the party atmosphere. However, even I started to notice that it was every time and that my drinking increased over the year I got to know him. I was nervous about him because I come from a family of alcoholics, he was 15 years older than me in his early 40s and I was fresh out of a terrible relationship with my ex fiance. However, the attention was intoxicating to me and I found myself obsessing over him and the affection he could give me and his deep interest in me. We tried to move on, he started dating someone else and I went NC but once I admitted my feelings to him he left his gf.

We started dating and I felt like I hit the jackpot in terms of the affection and love he was giving me. I started it saying it wouldn't last long. He was so much older, he drank too much, he was an illegal immigrant who didn't speak English (I speak Spanish) with a low paying job. So I kept the relationship secret from my family which was a serious error and unfair action I took for everyone involved. I truly thought it would last only a few months and he seemed more than ok that it was secret saying it was exciting. This was selfish of me and is my biggest regret. As 3 months went by and Christmas came around he got intoxicated and started crying saying I could never know how much he loved me and he wanted to make the relationship official. I conceded though I was nervous.

There were some serious highs in the relationship. Dancing with him, biking, his smile making love, cooking and feeling like every minute was intoxicating to me. And then some lows which I did my best to ignore. He was hung over most weekends, he drank a carton of beer in a night sometimes up to 10 beers. He drank every night. He drank a beer in the morning to calm down. The times he got angry or left me is when I interrupted his partying. He yelled at me once for not wanting to stay last 1am out. He left me in front of my friends to keep on partying and they all started feeling sorry for me. I truly just tried to ignore it saying all relationships had problems...so why didn't I reveal this relationship to my family? I knew they would reject it because of his drinking and that our relationship had no future.

I left at the end of 2019 for those reasons but when 2020 came and lockdown began I returned out of loneliness. The relationship became super intense as I lost hope for the future and staying with him felt like the best future I could have we even talked about me moving to Mexico with him. That would mean me giving up my career, family, country, friends here. His affection towards me became more intense and I felt again that I had hit the jackpot in terms of adoration he showed me but the problems around his drinking and the amount of sacrifice and wheel spinning (actually moving to Mexico and such deadline kept on being pushed back farther and farther) I was in was beginning to weigh on me. He was now unable to drink more than a few beers. I told him I thought he had a problem with alcohol. He didn't respond until a day later to say that he would think it was a problem when he couldn't work anymore and was out on the street. I saw who was the priority. He also started to say things like if we get married just remember I am a callejero. That means someone who is flighty and likes to be out on the street. He would continue partying and drinking. I imagined myself completely isolated and once while drinking he said he wouldn't stay with me unless I had a few kids with him. He apologized for that later but the reality of bringing kids into the situation showed me how selfish my actions were. I couldn't bring kids into this situation just because it was intoxicating and an ego boost for me to be in this relationship. I also saw how I was throwing myself away. Funnily enough the fantasy of running away from all my problems to another country with the love of my life is the biggest emotional hook still yet for me.

I started to wonder if I was another drug for him. I had done intermittent rewarding to him with the push and pull of trying to keep the relationship casual and hidden from my family but not friends. He told me that he would be madly in love with a woman and then wake up one day and not be in love anymore and it wasn't any problem with the woman. I also saw how a lot of his ex girlfriends were stuck on him and I wondered if he had made then feel as special adored and loved as I had felt because we were his secondary drugs of choice. He also told me he was afraid to touch marijuana or other drugs because he knew he got easily hooked on things. When I ended our relationship he tried to keep us as friends. I knew that would reinforce the intermittent reward so I said no. His last words to me were "I guess the addiction has been all drank up" referring to our relationship.

The best thing I did to stop this madness was tell my family what was going on. That was a hard hit of reality. I have also started the 12 step al anon program and am on the 4th step. I realize I am re enacting a lot of patterns from coming from a family of alcohol and food addiction. I did the same enabling and fantasizing and waiting I did with them. I am also focusing on the fact that I am co dependent and am addicted to the love cycle. I recognized what love we had was adolescent and I propelled half of that momentum. It is hard because in my weak moments I am afraid I will never feel that way again and I just want a quick fix of affection from him but more than that I want to live healthily, without secrets and with a mature love. Please help me to see reality as it is. I have been reading this forum and you guys do a great job of cutting through the addiction fog.

PeacefulWater12

Hello New Heart

It seems to me you are doing a great job of seeing through it and understanding your patterns. Thank you for sharing it here, I got a lot from reading your story and insights.

Gosh, in particular your remark about how intoxicating it is resonates very strongly with me.

sage1969

Newheart,
You are being really thoughtful and honest about what your relationship was and wasn't.
It can be so intoxicating to have someone pay attention to you in that way, especially after having another relationship end, it feels validating. That's why I view my codependency as an addiction. It's good you're working the steps so you can really focus on what is best for you.
As a codependent, we place our value, our power, outside ourselves. Because of that it's really hard to see that we are worth the very best, including relationships that are based on trust, respect, and love, and that we need to have that kind of relationship with ourselves before we can fall in love with someone else, pull our power back inside us where it's meant be.
I guess the part of your story that was the hardest to read was you considering to have children and move out of the country with this really sketchy man. Thank God you did not.
From the perspective of hindsight, I can say that you will find the right relationship when you are ready. You are so young still, in your twenties, and you have luxury of time to focus on you. You've found a good way to move forward. Keeping working your program. Count this and each blessing as it comes. You're doing hard work!

NewHeart

Peaceful Water. I don't know about you but when I pushed him away I got physical withdraws of not sleeping or eating and endless painful rumination and fantasizing about how to get just any bit of hit off of him. It hurts the self esteem to live that way but made me realize that is how he acted about alcohol. That's why I realized I was being selfish because I was not in a real relationship. I was intoxicating myself with his affection. That's not fair to anyone

NewHeart

Thank you for your kind and clear words. It is true. I was drugging myself with him because I placed my worth and power outside of myself until I felt like I couldn't live without him. How is that any different from any other drug?

I am glad he brought up kids. It was the one thing to make me think realistically. Otherwise I think I would have gone. Funnily enough, co dependency doesn't ring a lot of warning bells for friends. Many encouraged me to follow my heart and to have an adventure. So so many people told me that we had something special and to not give it up. People who should know better. People who encouraged me to not tell my parents because of how earth shattering this love is. And these are people with high education and some are in their 60s! I have taken to stop watching tv as so much of what is shown as love is really co dependency and love addiction and is triggering for me at this time.

Sometimes I feel like I wasted my 20s on co dependent relationships as I am 29 now and turning 30 in a month but it is still young to really take the step back and work on myself. I haven't felt like a true adult until the accountability process of working the 12 steps came into my life.

i am hopeful though. I have seen the big book really change people from the inside out. I no longer want to place my entire worth in another man or even into future children which has been another struggle as I feel lesser for not being married or a mother at this age. I want my own self worth to come from myself and God

trailmix

Hi Newheart, glad you posted.

You really are on the right track here, with Al Anon and your clear thinking about what the relationship was. He said at least 4 truthful things to you:

- he would think it was a problem when he couldn't work anymore and was out on the street
- if we get married just remember I am a callejero
- he would be madly in love with a woman and then wake up one day and not be in love anymore and it wasn't any problem with the woman
- I guess the addiction has been all drank up

Perhaps what's missing in your recovery and may be holding you back a bit is the brushing aside of some of the more negative impacts he had on you and the relationship.

Basically what he said is that I WILL drink until I am out on the street, I will be out all hours if we get married (and you can be at home with the kiddies), that I have miraculously stopped loving someone in the blink of an eye. The last comment was probably something one of his ex's said to him.

So perhaps it's important to keep some of those negatives in mind and when you start thinking about how you could use some affection from him, remember those things, stop yourself and say, hold on, is that what I want? Then answer it really truthfully because he doesn't sound like any kind of guy a woman would want to be involved with. The surface may be charming but what's underneath isn't so pretty.

The reality is, if you had moved (which would probably never have happened) you would end up in Mexico all alone - and not at the resort!

I completely understand how you got caught up with him and how intoxicating it was for you, but you had to sweep away a lot of stuff to stay, now you can stop sweeping.

As for regretting not telling your family, I don't see that as "selfish", you are a grown person and can decide what you tell other people. I know you know it would have been better for you had you told them, but nothing to feel guilty about. They may not agree, but that's not your burden to carry.

There will be other love, there will be another relationship, believe that. It may not be as "exciting" as this one but can be just as fulfilling. In the meantime, taking care of yourself really well is so important, which you seem to be doing, keep that up and over time you will find that when you look back at him it will be with a different perspective.

If "escaping" your current life seems really tempting to you, that's something else to look at, what can you do to make your life fuller and make you feel more content and happy.

PeacefulWater12

I experienced this in the earlier part of my relationship with my late AH. It was physical withdrawals. Felt very like physical withdrawals from alcohol but far far far far far stronger. Also the intoxication I felt with him was far far far far stronger than drinking. (I am a recovering alcoholic). My experience is that recovering from co-dependency is far harder than recovering from alcohol.

I can see now that this intoxication with a person is not love or even a relationship.

I am now slowly starting to experience love. The love of my dear friend. A whole different feel. Safe, secure, steady, level, trusting, slow, takes it time.

I had thought the intoxication was love. I can clearly see now it was not.

Many thanks for speaking of this.

NewHeart

It is comforting to know the future relationship won't be as exciting. The excitement came from the instability. I want fulfillment not excitement.

Thank you also for making clear statements about his negative attributes and that no woman should truly want to be with him. It is harsh but true.

The desire to escape came from my life situation in my mid 20s. I was in a very unhappy engagement. I feel ugly and undesirable. I was coming out of school with 90,000 dollars of loans to pursue a physical therapy degree and becoming disillusioned with modern life and the medical system. I also did not understand the role addiction and the enabling behavior around my sister was damaging me. Once I paid off my loans and began to admit addiction had affected me and as I started to get into my own interests around permaculture and camping and dancinf I liked my life more.

I worry that some of that is tainted a bit by being with him. He didn't do much besides drink and dance before I met him but once we started dating he also started to dream about permaculture and local sustainability projects. He started biking with me and showing intense interest in all that I did which is the most intoxicating part of the relationship. He grew up on a farm so that increased my affection for him because he understood a lot of what I was talking about. Moving to Mexico he promised me we would do those things together. I wonder now how much was he reflecting my passion back at me instead of it also being his passion. He may be a smooth talker and know how to get a woman's affection. He would always tell me he loved to learn more about me...maybe that was a tactic

When I read al anon literature about basic spiritual principles of enjoying one's life and gratitude, I think that is also a key to seeing the gifts and good life I have already. Having a sponsor and ladies I can call has also given me a different feeling of connection and acceptance. It was here all along.

NewHeart

And thank you for speaking of this. It is validating in how difficult the process is and validating in that I am truly on a healthier path. I want a true relationship and a steady love the way you described it.

Thank you

PeacefulWater12

My feelings towards my friend are a complete surprise to me. It is not and will never be a romantic relationship. I am glad of that, what we have is far better.

When my friend and myself are together, I can literally feel the waves of peace, warmth and caring coming off him to wards me. We go out and do nice little very low key trips together.

When I say to him I can feel these waves coming off him, he smiles and says that I give off the same waves to him. Same wavelength. A gentle peaceful one. If you knew the old me, you would be as amazed as I am at how I am now.

I found the Al-anon program an enormous help too. Also ACoA was incredible for me. It answered so many questions I didn't even know I had. Why I was like I was.

NewHeart

PeacefulWater

I am happy to hear that. Especially since we are taught to value romantic love above all. Friendship can be equally powerful if done in a healthy way

Ariesagain

Lordy, honey. He sounds exhausting. Y como se dice “player” en Español?

What you’ve been going through is largely biochemical. The romance, the drama, the ups and downs…it’s all a magical combo pack of oxytocin, adrenaline, and cortisol…then when it stops (otherwise known as reality sets in), you’re in withdrawal. FWIW, I suspect the major thing you two do have in common is that biochemical addiction…he’s the guy who says he can fall out of love just like that. That’s not “falling out of“ love, that’s just when the hormonal production from the novelty and the drama starts to slow down, as it does in any relationship that goes any kind of distance.

Applaud yourself for recognizing things were not right before you ended up in another country with no career, no family, maybe kids to care for, and a smooth-talking guy fifteen years older than you who has a drinking and playing around problem. That’s not a good look after a few decades and whatever you saw in him would be gone before too long regardless.

I’m glad you’re safe and I’m glad you’re here. Take it from a person of a certain age, true love that lasts is 95% friendship. It’s mutual regard, listening, understanding, and dealing with the life stuff, like who took out the garbage last and did the cat just throw up. It’s knowing that someone will always, always have your back.

Look for that, yes?

dandylion

NewHeart.....congratulations on your work that has allowed you to shed your rose colored glasses (as Ariesagain has so well described) and pulling the scales from your eyes about this self serving person.
There is a point where I may differ, some, from most of the other posters----I am not so dark minded about the manifestations of early attraction. It has it's place and has a certain special value. Im talking about all of those cascading bonding hormones---and the great feelings that they produce. I know that Mother Nature has a plan---one that ensures the propagation of our species. This powerful initial Attraction is a motivation to bring about the bonding of the sexes in order to begin the reproduction process and provide an environment for the survival of the young. Yes, of coursed, it can't ;last forever, as it is necessary to move along to the next stage of providing a suitable environment for survival. But, it is not ALL BAD, in my view. It is fun...and we are meant to enjoy it while it lasts. I see it as an important step.
lol....I used to cringe when I would see older 'sage" people give the advice---"Always marry your best friend"----and, the audience would burst into wild approving applause.
I would think, to myself---"I have had a lot of very good male friends---and, I cannot even imaging marrying any one of them!" For the romantic love that our culture has come to value---a certain amount of "chemistry" is necessary, in my opinion.
As for myself, I have always felt the "chemistry" with those I have dated---especially in the beginning---and, I wouldn't trade those great memories for the world, now.

I realize that you are still young to this---but, for what it is worth---it doesn't ALL go away forever, just because a relationship has grown into a more comfortable, secure, safe one----there are still times that one will feel some of those moments of sexual or romantic attraction. I know that is true because I have experienced it.

I think that if you travel in circles of men who are stable and of good character development----you will, eventually, be attracted to one of them.

lol...I know that I have gotten onto a tangent, here....

I do have one other bit of advice for you. I hope you will look into the group (or, at least, the readings)----"Adult Children of Alcoholics" (ACOA). After all. you certainly do qualify. You can find their Big Book and their literature on amazon.com. Just google "Adult Children of Alcoholics" in the book section of amazon.
I think you will find sooo much that resonates with you, there.
This would be in addition to your great alanon work. The two are not at all in conflict with each other.
You have probably been more influenced by the alcoholism that you grew up in than you have ever imagined.

Over all---I think you are doing great!
Knowledge is power.

advbike

Thanks for adding your comment about physical attraction, or the romance phase, Dandylion. I read the thread earlier and wanted to comment but didn't want to butt in. But I agree completely with your comment.

From a man's perspective, who tried for ten years to make a relationship work with someone who was almost a perfect partner and friend, but where the physical attraction and sexual intimacy was low, especially after the first couple years - there is nothing more painful to both parties. For some it can work, but for others it is too large a sacrifice, because we men get a big part of our emotional needs met that way. One person ends up wondering why the other is not interested and the other is wondering if "friends" and "agape love" can ever be enough.. and trying not to notice other attractive people. It can end up being a cruel exercise.

Sex and physical/emotional intimacy are SO important in making a relationship joyful and helping the relationship endure the tough times. There is nothing wrong with a relationship that is high on that scale, and no need for that aspect to go away if communication and attraction are still there. Will it lessen in intensity? Of course, and hopefully when it does the rest is good enough. But for me personally the "marry your best friend" approach hurt us both and ate up precious years as we both didn't want to hurt the other. Probably also a lot of co-dependency involved on both of our parts for sure.

OKRunner

NewHeart, you said, "I have taken to stop watching tv as so much of what is shown as love is really co dependency and love addiction and is triggering for me at this time."

I really hadn't realized this until you said it. I'm so glad you said this. It made me think about my immediate past relationship with my AXBF and some of my older, more stable relationships. When I was with my immediate past AXBF, I knew he had issues that were very serious and my gut told me to back away immediately, but then I remember thinking that what we had was FINALLY like what I saw on TV, or in the movies. It was finally that love where you fight and make up because you can't be apart, fight and make up, and you can't think of anything/anyone else. So it must be right. After all, that's what wins academy awards, right? (I do realize how crazy this sounds, and I'm a mature woman in my 40s, so it's even worse.)

When I was with my AXBF, I thought it was so much more "exciting" than my past boyfriends, all of whom were wonderfully romantic, attractive, stable, smart, healthy people who cared deeply about their families and whose actions followed their words every single time. They didn't just say nice things. They actually did them. Over and over again. They never let you down. They never not showed up. They were never hung over. They came through time and time again, on the good days and on the not so good days. When I was with my AXBF, I thought these past boyfriends were "boring" by comparison because they didn't leave and come back. (I know.)

Let's just say that I will never think that again.

Edited: I just read DL's and AdvBike's comments. I agree. When I was referring to my stable boyfriends above, I was very attracted to them. It's just that they also could wake up, go to work, bring home the bacon, fry it up in the pan, walk the dogs, pay the bills, and repeat that every single day. But I do promise you (and I know you know this) that there are stable people to whom you will be exceptionally physically attracted. (I am saying this to remind myself, too. )

velma929

Funnily enough, co dependency doesn't ring a lot of warning bells for friends. Many encouraged me to follow my heart and to have an adventure. So so many people told me that we had something special and to not give it up. People who should know better.

1) Nobody knows what another couple's relationship is really like.
2) It's wise to remember for the most part, we pick friends who are like us. So, it may be that your friends have a common feeling of right, wrong, adventure, boredom.
3) And many of us (even older folks) have learned to step back and one might say 'stay in our own lane' when people tell us their plans, even when they sound ill-advised. My sister dated a guy I thought wasn't especially good for her. My husband didn't like him at all. He was all ready to give Sis a lecture about thinking about her future. I told him to keep his mouth shut. I knew my sister, I knew her boyfriend (they met through me) and I could see BF was about to blow it. Lecturing my sister would have had her digging in her heels to prove us wrong. We sat tight. Before Sis flew out of state to visit our folks, she called me. BF had said, weeks before, he'd drop her off and pick her up from the airport, now it's been two weeks since she heard from him. Could I give her a ride? Hubby and I dropped her off at her apartment when she got home. "So....what are your plans for the holiday?" I asked. Well...she was going to BF's "but that's not happening." BF was history, but we let her come to that on her own.

dandylion

NewHeart.....this current discussion reminded me of a song that Iike---it is about a very tempting, attractive man, who is very dangerous.----and a woman who is trying to protect her own heart.

Black Horse and a Cherry Tree Lyrics - Bing video

sage1969

Newheart,

You made a mention about tv . . . you are so right! I have found I have to be extremely selective about what I choose to watch. So many shows and movies portray codependency and addictions as "normal" parts of our society and relationships.

To be honest, I've also shut down all but one social media account, and only check the one I use for work / continuing education. I found that I was really relying on social media and it had become a new addiction.

It's hard, but I focus on being present in each moment, and attempt to do non - technological stuff like reading or walking or working in my garden.

Cookie314

I was like this too...ok I may still be like this. My bf when I was a teenager to early 20s was a huge jerk. My friends knew it, my family knew it, I knew it later but stuck around too damn long after that. They had to wait to tell me their feelings and his actions towards them until after **** had already basically caught fire, because I wouldn't have listened. Terminal stubbornness can be a boon in my work field, not so much in my romantic life.

I think I honestly will have to take some time after things settle with my AH to focus on actually being alone, and figure out what draws me to these relationships. Probably a mixture of my own jerkitude, my sense that I can "see the real person underneath", my desire to be compassionate and avoid conflict, the joy I get from the highs, etc coming together.

It's complicated of course. No one is wholly good or bad. It can be hard to accept how bad the bad can really be when you're trying so desperately to focus on the good. You never know what the future holds, and the hope that the person will somehow change our get better is tough to break.

I think your gut telling you that this guy isn't the person to give you the future you want is a good instinct. The intensity and passion of a new relationship is a great feeling, but the quiet companionship of just existing with someone who really gets you can't be beat.

NewHeart

AriesAgain,
That was something I thought about. What I saw that was good in him would become increasingly irrelevant as our lives became more entwined. To be honest, I think I am afraid I will always choose men with a problem so that is something I am hoping to get out of the 12 steps. As I get healthier I hope to choose healthier men. Though as I turn 30 I feel that my time is running out

Dandelion I think so too. Where does one go is my question? Haha but maybe that is something I just have to figure out on my own. And yes there does have to be a certain amount of physical attraction. I am not worried about that stage, I am more worried about being blinded. But that will be less probable as I become healthier. I will also check out ACoA literature. Funnily enough the addiction came mostly from my sister so understanding how I became an enabler for her has been more eye opening then always looking at the parent child relationship.

Advbike, that is very interesting and does help me to be less afraid of physical attraction and see its benefits more. I just have to let it not lead me as I am being attracted to alcoholics right now.

OkRunner, that doesn't sound crazy at all! We broke up and came back together multiple times and it was justified by thinking if we can't keep away thay means we have a special bond. It's just like all those romance shows, novels, others are jealous of us. The thing is my ex alcoholic boyfriend did go to work and cook and clean it was the instability of his drinking and me wondering how long it could last with the comments he made and knowing his past actions. I think that rumination kept me hooked. The good thing about going through this is that the relief of finally having that super romantic will they or wont they relationship is no longer appealing at all. I am exhausted and hurt. Stability looks so much more appealing now. I'm just scared and grieving the lost years and honestly afraid that a woman in her 30s is no longer attractive. I know that's a negative mindset but it is true.

Velma929, those three points are very valid and I am sure a lot of hesitancy around advice giving was due to that. I think in my case number 2 was especially relevant as I would bring up these fears to friends but they would downplay his drinking and say the push pull dynamic was because we were spiritually meant for one another. I now see they had their own drinking and drug problems and their marriages were similar in cheating.

Sage1969, when I focus on my gardening and physical exercise I feel great. It is when I engage in comparisons based on media models I become depressed about not being married and having a house. I miss out on gratitude. Television loves co dependency. I used to be a HUGE fanatic of romance shows and books. I am staying so far away from those right now. They fed my wild fantasies with this guy. And he did seem to step out of a romance novel and was going to whisk me away to our fantasy life...except he drank a lot and made suggestions that once I was his things were going to change around here and not for my benefit.


I was the enabler as a child so idealizing the good and ignoring the bad is so hard for me. I feel like I'm colorblind and cannot see what others see. The desire to be compassionate and the sense that I can see the person underneath are probably my two biggest blind spots. It's helpful in my career working with people and not helpful at all in my love life. But you are right, no one is wholly bad so the good moments with my XABF were truly good. But that is not enough.

I am afraid I won't find that companionship. At my age I feel people are becoming desperate and a lot of dates are mechanical to hurry up and get married. I do feel that time pressure and I do want to get married but I am burned from my last relationship and want a friendship first. I have moved several times in my 20s so long term male friendships aren't in my life. But I may be being pessimistic right now. I should focus on my 12 step program, put myself out there and trust God to bring the right man in my life on his timeline not mine