SparkleKitty

If life is about love, then why does a loving relationship with yourself get short-changed in favor of loving relationships with others? In my opinion, healthy love with others is not even possible until you find healthy love for yourself.

NewHeart

trailmix,
Thank you for that framework of thinking about about how to take the good from the bad and how to weigh them for my own well-being. It's also helpful for me to understand the alcoholic mindset. Yes things do not add up. And he may want those things now but yes actions not words. His actions were just to drink. He could dream with me but he did not do anything. There were other things that I denied but are coming up now that I am "talking" to you guys. His family would call him and remind him that marriage is forever and he would say...oh I didn't think of that. Or I would push him to give me a specific detail of a plan of how he would support us in Mexico and he would stall and stall until we broke up and he admitted he wasn't sure if he could get a job and he would have to open a business. My first thought was the alcohol would come before that as this was when I started to wise up to how bad the addiction was....it is crazy what you will put up with when you are co-dependent.

Thank you for the example of dwelling on negativity. I just wrote a list out but I am sure I will be adding to it. You referencing the one horrible thing is more than enough. As far as your question about what I wrote: He used to be able to drink 10-15 beers a night and "recover" and function and work. But at the end of our relationship he would have 2 or 3 beers and be sick in the morning and be hungover all day. His tolerance went way down.

Cookie314,

I do truly enjoy those things. I am still doing them on my own. I was the one who introduced them to him. But he was the only one I shared those passions with so a lot of my development around them are with him so those hobbies are a bit painful for me to engage in. Finding the healthy/unhealthy is a helpful framework and no, no one can tell me what is healthy/unhealthy for me but it is very helpful receiving advice from people who help others get through addiction to be healthy again.

SparkleKitty,

Thank you for that turn around on love. I knew it was leading me to an unhealthy place but I didn't know how to turn it around. Self-love does have to be the base and is necessary. Everything else is icing on the cake if it is healthy and can be a deficit if unhealthy

NewHeart

Update: I wrote down a list of negatives and re read this thread nearly daily. I continue the 4th step and read AA or Al Anon literature and pray daily.

I am starting to have moments of peace and happiness of being out of the relationship and single. Here is a list of new parts of my life I am grateful for:

1. I don't drink several times a week anymore. I haven't picked up a drink since I left and now longer don't feel an urge when I get stressed. I didn't realize that I was putting myself of developing an addiction or associating alcohol with emotional numbing.

2. I reconnected very deeply with my family particularly my parents and grandparents who have been through the AA program themselves. We now share a spiritual tradition.

3. I feel I am becoming an actual adult. It's now just about what I want but what is healthy and good for others AND me! That's a new one. It's also about making tough decisions and having the strength to go through them and rely on others. That's also new.

4. His negatives are becoming more obvious. All the sacrifices I would have made and he would have chosen the alcohol first and "fallen out of love"

5. It is not about him and blaming him for his alcoholism and bad habits...though it is good to keep in mind...it is about me and changing how I view myself and my relationships. I no longer want to sacrifice everything. I want an equal partner.

I am not there yet but I am starting to feel it is my path. I do still miss him, the friend group, my habits with him, and I am reminded of him everytime I go into a certain part of town. But that's part of the sacrifice.

trailmix

That is truly a great list. I think it's so wonderful that you have realized all this in such a short time NH.

I particularly like the statement above. You looked forward and decided that is not where you want to go so you stopped. Once we truly look at the situation and see it for what it is, I think that is a HUGE step forward in healing from the disappointment.

NewHeart

It is disappointing and I feel a lot of guilt for breaking it off so suddenly with him but I think that's codependency too. I also was not a good partner if I had no boundaries or expectations for healthy behaviors for him so how much of a relationship was it? We had our good times and I am learning a lot about life even when I was with him but it would not have been fair to either one of us to try to build a life together. Neither one of us would have thrived. His alcoholism and short love relationships would not have been a good foundation for me and my co dependency, lack of boundaries or expectations would not have been a good foundation for him

NewHeart

I wrote down the list of negatives. I want to keep it in this thread as a way to remember and have everything in one placeNicolas wanted to move to Mexico not stay here (Long term plans)

• I would be away from all my family and friends
  
• No English
  
• Learn a whole new system
  
• Not see my parents and sisters aging
  
• No social support from my family
  
• If I have a kid my parents would not help out if it didn’t work out
  
• I am not mentally in a place to have a child
  
  • Boundaries around having kids
    
    • I’m mentally healthy
      
    • Stable jobs
      
    • Social Support
      
    • Healthy husband
      

Nicolas drinks every day

• He already had bile duct surgery due to his drinking
  
• His health will deteriorate more
  
• He drinks until he blackouts or gets sick at least once a month
  
• It is his stress relief and when things get more stressful, he will drink more
• How many times did I wait for him to drink in the morning while I had coffee. Start drinking in the afternoon. Be hungover so we couldnt go anywhere. This pattern was here before I came, was there while I was with him and will be with him in the future. Nothing about him changed just having a girlfriend who would put up with it.
• Drinking and partying/socializing works now as bf/gf but as wife w/ kids he would be out of the house a lot
  
  • He said it would be different in Mexico because he is callejero and would be out of the house often
    

He asked me to not let him embarrass himself while he is drinking

Nicolas has low frustration tolerance

• Imagine building a life with its ups/downs he would have more frustration
• yelled at me when I didnt want to party that I shouldnt have come
• abandoned me in front of friends when he wanted to party. They felt bad for me
• Frustration on vacation about the sleeping bags. He wouldnt let that frustration go most likely due to being in withdrawal.
• General lack of responsibilities due to routine being only about drinking didnt let me see how he would handle a life full of many responsibilities.
• His parents were concerned about his anger when he was an adolescent.

My priorities are changing

• Relationship with parents are changing
  
  • More involved, wanting them in my life long term instead of always running away
    
• Less fear
  
  • Nicolas and his skills were about soothing my fears from all the chaos in my life and economics
    
  • Same/different challenges w/ him in Mexico w/ less social support than here
    
  • Depending upon wider social support than just one man
    

Working the 12 steps

• To see my faults/patterns of behavior
  
• Difficult to assess inside of a relationship particularly when my defects are around relationships
  

Child rearing/Cultural Differences

• While I am here I can hold onto my culture/expectations more. More pressure to conform to childrearing in Mexico and have more kids.
  
• Women have all domestic roles and I would work. It would be hard for me to adjust living up to certain expectations and no therapy or family as an outlet
  
• Reading ACOA literature I see how crucial consistency, stability and mental healthiness is important to raise a child. A drinking father and ex-pat isolated co-dependent mother are not the best parents
  
• Nicolas said kids were not a lot of work just love
• ​​​​​​​he has no legal standing in the USA and doesnt speak English or drive despite living here for 10 years. Almost got a DUI once. How many more legal problems and being the designated driver did I want?

My current ability to be a partner

• Low due to emotional upheaval
  
• Changing habits/patterns in 12 steps
  
• Co-dependent behavior
  
• Grief
  
• Fear
  
• Emptiness inside and looking for purpose/stability in men
  
• I asked him to an unfair thing which was keep the relationship hidden from my parents. The relationship was not built on honesty. Abuse thrives on secrets
  

Nicolas and Marriage

• His sister had doubts about him being able to stay married long term since it is forever
  
  • He admitted to not really thinking about it being forever
    

He said all of his relationships had a lot of passion until he was done. It had nothing to do with the women, he would wake up one day and it would be done

• I am his longest lasting relationship and while he may be more serious about me it may have always had an expiration date on it especially as it turned from dating as gf/bf to domesticity and marriage
  

He admitted to not thinking about what job he would have in Mexico

• Ok not to worry and take life as it comes but my mom’s advice was you don’t need to be rich but you do need to have a career in which you can grow
  
• His family said I must really be in love to put up with his faults and expressed doubt in the long-term viability of our relationship
  
  • Would they have been supportive of me if everything fell apart. Particularly with children?
    

Ambivalence and Responsibility

• How serious was Nicolas about moving/not-moving to Mexico
  
  • How long would I have lived in ambivalence?
    
• He would get passionate romance here w/o sacrificing anything but I would live in ambivalence supporting him, not knowing what we were doing and not meeting other men or reaching out to my social support (family, 12 step, friends). Child rearing would be on me and earning the amount of money we needed unless we planned to stay in his apartment forever.
  
• He would move to Mexico and have a house-wife, family, house, kids w/o sacrifice. I would sacrifice my family, career, child-rearing boundaries, social network and mental health
  
• Called our relationship an addiction that had been all drank up and that he was callejero.
• Was in contact with ex for first few months of relationship even though I told him I wasn't comfortable with it.
• I was in a state of limerance. Living from my emotional pain body

Friends have stated that he is not ready to be a father. That they didn't realize how bad it was until I started to talk about how much he drinks and what he said to me in anger or about being irresponsible f we were to have children and that his drinking has only gotten worse since I left.

sage1969

NewHeart, I would add to the list what if you had had children? What would their lives be like with an alcoholic father? With a mother that had little time because she was juggling full - time work, career, and of course as first priority, alcoholic husband? What would happen to those children during a divorce if you were in Mexico? Would you be allowed to return to the US with your children if there was a divorce? What happens if your alcoholic husband is violent with you in front of the children? What happens is your alcoholic husband is violent with your children? What if he is violent with the children but hides it from you?

This list continues, but I think you get the point . . . excluding the questions about being in another country, all the rest have happened to me personally, dark, but many of us have lived a life like this.

NewHeart

That was why children woke me up to the reality. If our marriage did not go well which it was guaranteed not to because of his addiction and womanizing, the kids would have had no recourse and I would have had no help. Its not fair to me to do all the full time work of 2 people and its not fair to the kids to grow up with an addicted father and an equally occupied and stressed mother. It was so easy to take our good times and romanticize that it would carry over to parenthood but the good times all involved alcohol sex and partying. Any deviation from that routine was stressful for him and he made it clear that he would be absent. When I remarked to him that I made more money so he should stay home he got angry and said I don't love our future kids and thar I should want to stay home because I was the woman. He also said kids weren't work just love. I think he was angry thay I was asking him to take responsibility and take up some part of the work and not just be out drinking all day and then occasionally patting them on the head and get all the love and connection from the kids just as long as it didn't get between him and drinking. I felt in my bones I would be taking all the work, child rearing and finances.

I think I would have been stuck in Mexico unable to return since he is the legal father. If he was violent to me or the kids I could attempt a women's shelter which isn't great as I would have no family around me. I would have to hope his extended family would prioritize me and the kids over his drinking which is unlikely. I see his brothers heavily drinking and getting drunk quite often. They would probably downplay his drinking especially because it seemed that their first priority was making him a father instead of getting him sober and it would be my responsibility to force him to grow up and stop drinking.

Also it was not fair to my parents to put their grandchildren in danger like that and they let me know that.

More negatives for the list

• Broke up with me at 1 in the morning when I was sleeping blaming me for forcing him to break up. Based on a comment I couldn't remember
• I would be responsible for child rearing and finances
• There would be no escape from a bad marriage if I had kids with him
• Didn't like me going to therapy. Told me I had to figure things out on my own.

PeacefulWater12

My late AH was always pushing me to move home! It is a nutty thing they do as they think when they move to a new place THEY will be different! That everything will magically all be OK! That their drinking will no longer cause problems.

It won't, they will still be the same person with the same issues.

In AA they call it doing a "geographical".

I always said no.

trailmix

I'm sorry, I actually laughed out loud when I read this part. It is just so far-fetched.

I suppose kids aren't work when you do absolutely none of the work.

NewHeart

Exactly. That's what I thought too. As I said, it helped wake me up to the reality of the situation and the respect he did not give me and the enabling I was doing. He didn't love he found someone who would give him sex, wouldn't question his addiction and was fertile and since she had no boundaries and was an enabler would probably do all the work. It shows you how addicted I was to him that we even got this far before I woke up.

NewHeart

Oh wow!!! I did not know that! It's funny how unique you think your situation is to find out it is replaying a pattern.

Yes somehow when we got to Mexico everything would be ok. I was crazy enough to think it would have been for a while. Up until he mentioned kids.

PeacefulWater12

The more you learn about this stuff, the more you can see how similar the behaviours all are.

It is like they all read the same Handbook.

My late AH did manage to push his former wife into moving several times, each time SHE ended up isolated with no support around her.

In your post something that jumped out at me was him wanting YOU to not let him embarrass himself. That is wrong on so many levels.

NewHeart

It is wrong on so many levels. It was one of the last things he said to me and it was when I first started to wake up.

I can see my boyfriend was trying to isolate me even while saying he supported me having a good relationship with my parents. He just didn't want me to "rush" into telling them about our relationship. I told them anyway to help gain clarity. So when it came to getting help around the relationship he did try to isolate me.

NewHeart

Another update.

I feel more and more clarity about my last relationship especially as I talk openly about it. Almost everyone, even close friends of him are happy I decides to leave and not have children with him. It's helping to see reality as it is.

However now I am facing overwhelming anger at having spent time with him. I try to justify that I didnt waste time as I had just broken up with my fiance and then COVID hit and I did learn but goddamn I am angry and mostly at myself. Why did I not think I was deserving of a loving relationship with a healthy man. I came back from a friends house who has been married for years and is now pregnant. I am sad I don't have that now. Why did I waste my time with a party guy? I was not in a good headspace when I met him from my last breakup and I had a terrible relationship with my parents and sister centered around addiction. It wasnt until last year that I turned that around and now the desire for a family of my own has become so clear.

But now I feel frantic. Its 4 in the morning here and the anger and fear and anxiety has kept me up all night.

PeacefulWater12

Sorry to read you are feeling frantic and cannot sleep. Have you considered speaking to your doctor for some help?

Take care.

NewHeart

It is anxiety which I suffer from normally. It isnt long term and overall I have had better days but seeing my friends with a long term happy marriage, new house and baby made me realize all that I threw away in my 20s just trying to financially survive and not think about what kind of life I wanted to live

sage1969

Be gentle with yourself! You've learnt from this experience, as you did with your family of origin experience, and it sounds like you are growing and making changes. It's not helpful to dwell on or in the past because there is little you can change, it's already past. You can change your future. You can live in this moment, make conscious choices about how you want to live now. As you find a better way to live day to day, and find peace with yourself, you will make new friends, meet better people.

I remember feeling that feeling that I so badly wanted a family and children and I married the wrong people to get that. Whomever you marry will be a parent to your children so of course you want to be fairly certain they are actually the kind of person who can parent a child. I didn't have my youngest child til I was 40, and I've friends who've had children even later than that, so you do have time, don't put so much pressure on yourself.

You might want to speak with your healthcare provider about this. It is a very normal thing for there to be these three emotions in the codependency cycle, and by working on understanding codependency and working to live in a less codependent way, you can decrease the frequency of these feelings. (Codependent No More goes through all this). My anxiety went through the roof when I started dismantling all the relationships and ways of living in my life that were harmful to me; it has taken some time to fill that empty space with positive self care and positive habits founded by loving and liking myself, and these are things that codies struggle with, since they normally find value outside themselves in others, and depend on others and doing for others to feel good about themselves.

trailmix

Your friend has been married for years, is that where you would have wanted to be say, 10 years ago? You mentioned a bad relationship with your ex-fiance and now this relationship. Not all relationships end up in marriage, sometimes they are short, some longer and more intense, some, we find someone we want to marry. That just is.

Initially in this latest not-so-great relationship, you were ok, maybe even happy? Was he marriage/have children material - absolutely not, you may have even kind of realized that, but you took it to its conclusion.

Is that a waste of time? Maybe, could be looked at like that, or maybe it is just where you were at that time. Now, you are in a different mindset, this latest relationship brought to the fore, in your mind, what you want and what you absolutely don't want. That clarity is at least helpful going forward. You left a bad relationship, ended up with this last guy at what was a pretty tough time, recent breakup, Covid lock down. How did you feel when you ended the relationship with your ex-fiance? I'm guessing pretty awful, maybe awful about yourself even, I don't know.

Perhaps this interlude was a way of dragging you out of that (we still need to look at all of that after, but sometimes the interlude actually helps you know?). In an ideal world/mindset you would have examined all this before getting in to the next relationship, but hey!, we are all human, we don't always do things by the book and sometimes we need more experience to see where we are at. On the incredibly great upside, you exited in a short-ish period of time, from what I can tell, you didn't let it drag on for 20 miserable years, you can thank yourself for that.

I don't know if any of this rings true for you, just some thoughts. I'm not surprised your angry, that's not a bad thing right now in moving forward. Just hope you won't be too hard on yourself.

NewHeart

Maybe then my high anxiety has to do with me getting healthier. I no longer associate myself with my ex boyfriend's friend group where the men all did cocaine and drank a lot and the women were doormats. I used to be anxious about the gossip about me in the group and if other's liked how I dressed...I was very self-conscious of my presentation. Now I don't do that, particurally with the AA girls or the church I go to now. But that is a release of control so perhaps it is making me anxious.

How can you be sure the person you are marrying is decent? I get nervous that I am falling for the wrong men or that I will be tricked after being love bombed....it's increasing my anxiety because I'm thinking I have to work on myself? This is going to take 10 years and then I will be infertile. Ridiculous I know, but that's the thought pattern.

I also know that there are negative reasons why I want to have children. There are positive reasons too but a big one is so that I am not the weirdo who is left out. My biggest fear is hating myself until I get married and have kids. And if it doesn't happen, hating myself and feeling like the outcast. I think my big focus on being normal and getting married is that I was so co dependent with my sister since I was 11 when she developed an eating disorder, that turned to alcoholism that turned to drugs, I didn't even know what reality was up until I turned 27. My sister had been lying to me about what my parents did to her, and they were extremely grave accusations. I cut my parents out. I then learned that what they had done was to try to limit her addictions. They did become co-dependent and extremely anxious and they had also taken out their frustration with me...but that was because I was her knight in shining armor. At 27, my sister put me in a situation in which I could have died due to her wanting to continue her addictions. I then realized I had cut my family off due to drug seeking behavior. I re connected with my parents but it was very very painful and disorienting. I feel that I am mourning the person I could have been....just a normal person who could have had healthy relationships. I think my desperate need to have kids is to "Get back on track". My relationship with EXABF started just before I realized all this when I was running away from my family of origin and making poor decisions. I wish I hadn't gotten into it because I feel like I would have recovered myself earlier and not be nursing a heartbreak on top of everything else.

I know you say you can have children until you are 40 but I hear from so many people that the dating pool shrinks significantly at 33...that's why I feel the rush.