Cookie314

NewHeart, you seem really convinced that being 30 means you're old and unattractive, and you have some sort of time limit on finding companionship.

First off, I'm 31, and really unwilling to accept that I'm actually old at this point (except for my knees, which my doctor told me at 21 that I "have the knees of a 50 year old woman." They betrayed me long ago.) If you think you're unattractive, go ahead on just about any dating site or app for a bit. The onslaught of unsolicited pics and attention will make you realize that you are more attractive than you realize, while also making you wish you actually were as unattractive as you seem to think you are. If someone does find you unattractive, that all isn't an insult to you (unless they're being a jerk about it, in which case they should just be ignored). You could be the world's tastiest peach, but there will always be someone who doesn't like peaches.

I really do understand having low self esteem, and feeling down on yourself. Those thoughts need to be addressed though. When you turn that overly critical eye on yourself, it's very damaging. Try catching yourself making this self-deprecating statements, and countering them. You are worthy of your own love and respect.

As for feeling the time pressure for a relationship, why? If you live to 70 let's say, you're still not even halfway through your life yet. There is more time left for you to experience than you've even made it through yet. Don't pressure yourself to jump into a relationship, that sort of pressure is what pushes you into these sort of situations in the first place. There's no cut off date for finding companionship, or anything like that. Taking the time to focus on yourself will help you find ways to be happy on your own, as well as helping you find ways to be happier in a relationship.

NewHeart

Cookie,

Your words are very clear it is low self esteem. It's this weird loop where I need to have kids to be a worthwhile woman or I will be a loser if I reach 40 without being a mother so I need to hurry up.

I don't like living that way or thinking that way and I don't want to have children to boost my self esteem. I want to make the choice to have children out of love and I also want to love myself if that never happens because we cannot control outcomes. So maybe the kids thing is just choosing the most obvious outward sign of "deficiency" to project my low self esteem and say if I fix this I will feel better about myself but that wouldn't work.

When you talk about how long life is to find a companion it feels so much more relaxing and letting life be on its terms instead of my strict checklist

SparkleKitty

As a 50-year-old recovering codependent who never had children, I can promise you, my friend, that there are many, many ways to live and be happy.

Every single one of them begins and ends with you being good enough for you no matter what your life looks like.

dandylion

NewHeart....as a woman of your current age, I think it could be a wonderful thing for you, if you were to "widen your horizons". Experience some new places and different kinds of people. This is a great time to do so---to have some adventures and a change of scene. You aren't tied down with a relationship or children. This time is for your enrichment.
One good start might be to enroll in a woman's study course/s through the local community college or on line. In person classes would feel the most emotionally rewarding, though. You would get a lot of ideas, there.
I think that a lot of your feelings about age and motherhood and marriage are reflections of your most immediate peer group. Frankly, this is true of all of us---that we can be influenced by our immediate peers that are in our daily lives. Especially when we are still young and finding our place in the world.

Cookie314

I personally never wanted kids, so I suppose that's fortunate in my current situation. I don't feel like my life's meaning should be defined by having offspring. Though I've taken a liking to the idea of optimistic nihilism (kurzgesagt had a really good video on it if you ever wanted to check it out) where if everything is truly meaningless, then you are set free to determine what matters to you. If you feel children are important, that's totally OK. Maybe you can look into volunteering to help kids with special needs, or at shelters, or fostering, etc. Down the road you may find someone who you feel would be the right fit to start your own family with, etc. There's no single correct way to "succeed" at life. You'll forge your own path as you go, and find new definitions of meaning that fit you as an individual, rather than what others or society impose upon you.

NewHeart

Thank you. I have talked to older women who haven't had children and they say the same and I believe them and I don't think worse of them.

Funnily enough, I think I ruminate on it by reading childfree articles and those who call them selfish as a form of low self esteem...see look how selfish I would be if I didn't have children. I just would like life to flow regardless of outcomes.

I am just connecting now that my low self esteem and co dependency about looking for value outside of myself and addictive behaviors such as rumination of how to get that outside relationship is connected. All the opinion pieces on the internet are a great source of anxious rumination to lower one's self esteem. I do it with wanting to be married and I do it with wanting to be a mom. Neither one are good or bad desires its just that I am forcing myself into them to heal my low self esteem and co dependent addiction patterns.

Dandylion, I do think it is a part of my social group. I love living in the Midwest but being single and unmarried past 25 is old maid territory and all activities are centered around family. My own parents have told me that life can be good with or without children and they would have been fine either way. They actually say the one thing is you cant rush into it or have them foe the wrong reasons. So the pressure is not from my parents. Sometimes I wonder if moving somewhere else would help and it might but I also know the real pressure is my low self esteem. I think a new adventure would be helpful. I have taken women's courses on how women have been prized for their reproductive purposes only. The knowledge is there but the understanding deep inside my body and psyche is not

NewHeart

Cookie, I really like this framework. I don't impose on others the single correct way to succeed at life. I just do it to myself....which reminds me a lot of the dynamic of enabling when I was younger. I had to pick up the pieces of my sister's addiction and sacrifice myself to save though I would never have expected that of someone else....hmmm. I am not sure if I actually want kids as I don't have a particular passion for them I am just afraid of missing out and beating myself up for the rest of my life and not being able to handle other's judgements.

I don't think my life's meaning should be determined by offspring either but fear is keeping me from letting it go instead of letting it flow

dandylion

NewHeart....I agree with you that some time in another geography would be enlightening and freeing for you. lol...I know what you say about the midwest.
I am actually thinking about some workshops or support group or the like with some young women about your age---that explore issues that are pertinent to women of your age-- ---like relationships and careers and such. A new peer group of women can help your self esteem development, also. Of course, your self esteeem and self development will need to be worked on, wherever you are.
Lol...you might like a city like Ashvjlle North Carolina or SantaFe New Mexico----due to their populations of greater diversity and "free thinking". Just one idea.

NewHeart

It is a good idea because I don't want to move back to the coasts just due to the high cost of living and my salary doesn't increase. I will have to do more investigation. I won't move until I am done with my 12 steps but I can travel and see. Thank you

sage1969

Newheart,

Allow yourself to step back from the pressure of getting married in your 20s. Besides really needing to focus on yourself and love for yourself, it's hard to find men in their 20s who have it together.

When you are ready, opportunities will come up. Just because your friends are married doesn't mean you have to perpetuate that pattern. You get to choose what feels right to you.

(I didn't have my first child til I was 30, and my youngest was born when I was 40. I did marry the completely wrong person when I was 27, for similar reasons -- I was alone, all my friends were married and having children. Things could have been very different for me had I learnt about codependency a lot earlier in my life).

trailmix

Aside from a biological clock (which can be bypassed with technology!) life isn't actually a series of structured "events".

0 - 18 - School
18 - 22 - University
23 - 30 - Work on career and have fun
30 - 40 - Get married, have children, install picket fence
40 - 50 - Continue raising children - have more freedom, continue gaining in career
65 Onward - retire and go on cruises.

I really dislike these boxes and I haven't fit in to any of them and don't plan to. It's meaningless. This is more about marketing than anything else, it's not actually meaningful to individuals is it?

You can do whatever you like at whatever age you are and will be, relax, do some things you enjoy, what is another country in the world you have always wanted to visit? Maybe start making plans for that trip?

NewHeart

Sage, it is true that many men do not have their priorities together in their 20s and I do not want to settle either. The pressure is real but working the 12 steps is helpful to changing my psychology and to really loving myself to even be able to love others. I also know that a lot of that pressure to get married leads to unhappy situations and I see that a lot. So I know checking off the list doesn't make one happy and yet...but I will make the effort to step back and claim my dignity for myself

How do you think knowing about codependency would have helped you earlier in life? Do you think comparing yourself to others and basing your life off of theirs is a form of co dependency?

Remembering that when I am ready opportunities will come up is reassuring. I don't have to scheme or be in control.. Also having a kid in late 30s or 40s sounds better to me because I feel like I would have more to give anyway

Trailmix. The boxes you described don't even fit. I didn't get out of graduate school until 26 almost 27. I only have 3 years in my career. Sometimes I think about how much pressure it is to expect myself to go to graduate school, pay off my loans, get married and have kids all at the same time. That's an insane amount of pressure. Also, I know that formula is artificial even if there is some comfort in following the herd...but is that what I want to base my dignity around?

A country I would like to go to? Not Mexico right noe hahaha. I think go back to Italy to see my extended family though that might be stressful because they expected me to be married by 19. I am considering somewhere tropical and an island. Something completely unrelated and safe enough for a single woman


I also have a general question. I didn't notice too much lying or raging which is what I hear is typical for alcoholics to display. However, I never pushed against my AXBFs drinking and our lives were not very entwined. His parents when he was a teenager (he started drinking and partying at 13 ) said they were worried about his anger. I only know it because he said it to me. I only saw his anger once when I wanted to go home early from drinking and otherwise it would just be some anger at politics. He actually was known for being happy and easy going all the time. I'm asking because it just feels disjointed. How could he be known for being so relaxed and easy going but alcoholics are known for raging and his anger was something that his parents were worried about. Can alcohol be a way to control anger?

trailmix

I don't think anger is controlled by alcohol, perhaps in people who get very relaxed when drinking? Alcohol affects everyone differently really, I don't think that rage necessarily comes along with alcoholism.

Many teenagers are angry with authority figures (I was) and push back, that's pretty normal.

Not all alcoholics are angry. You never called him on his drinking (which is fine, that's his thing) and the only time you saw him angry is when you wanted to leave the drinking venue early. I think that is your answer right there. What if you were really annoyed by how destructive his drinking was to you two having any kind of real emotional connection or you could see that it was really destructive to him and wanted to "help". I guarantee you he would have shown more anger then. He had no constraints, can drink whenever he wants, had a nice girlfriend that wasn't worried about his drinking awfully much, non stressful job - why would he be angry?

NewHeart

Trailmix

Yes why would he show anger when I had no boundaries. I am sure he would have pushed back against me if I began to question his drinking. He did always tell me he did not like to see couples who nagged each other and tried to control each other. I wonder if he was telling me that if I nagged about his drinking it would be over. He always said freedom and being loved were the two most important components of our relationship. Freedom to drink? Because lying and anger were not components of our relationship even though I know a lot of people say that is how alcoholism presents itself. Perhaps for those with boundaries

sage1969

Newheart,

Codependency was rampant in my family of origin, so I learnt from a young age how to stay out of the way of the parent with addictions. Having that dysfunction as a model for relationships really did me no favors.

By the time I was in my 20s, I'd lived outside the US, finished a master's degree, and was somewhat self - sufficient, but was holding onto some pretty unrealistic expectations about getting married and having that picket fence. Had I really done the deep work around codepency at that point, I could have sidestepped some really painful and damaging relationships. And as a parent, I'm now finding that my children are also having to do the hard work around codependency.

I'm not certain if comparing and basing your life to and of others is codependency . . . I know as a child I'd often look in the front windows of houses as I was walking home because I really wanted to know what "normal" families did at home. Even then, I couldn't put a finger on it but knew that other families functioned differently than mine. I really struggled with being a loner.

When your center / sense of self / personal power is not centered in yourself, but centered outside yourself, in other people, it's really hard to be comfortable with your own identity and who you are. Back then, I didn't know who I was and was hoping to catch a glimpse of how / who the other kids in my neighborhood were. I think now as an adult, it's really easy to fall into negative self - talk, and that often comes in the form of comparing self to others.

NewHeart

I think I am holding onto unrealistic expectations of it being happily ever after, giving me purpose, belonging and a sense of meaning. I imagine like anything else in life it is how you show up to it and I can see that working on myself would be the first step. Can I ask what expectations you had around it?

Also, I think it is easy to slip into comparisons as an adult especially as our potential becomes past and there are so many things we can become disappointed on. I am starting to focus on that it is what I do but how I show up. If all things are connected than all potentials are inside of me. I may not be able to live out all the different lives that I dream about but I can show up with the qualities that would be exhibited. For example I may not br a professional adventurer as I wanted to be when I was a kid but I can show up with an adventurous spirit in the things I do and when I can make an action in the outer world that reflects that I will do that.

I struggle greatly with the white picket fence dream but I imagine the work I am doing now will help me mentally work through it.

Thank you for sharing from your heart

Cookie314

Newheart, a youtuber I enjoy called cgp grey does a few videos on the nature of happiness and defining your goals I think you'd enjoy.

7 ways to maximize misery

Your theme

He points out things we often do that essentially set us up for failure, and lead us to beat ourselves up unfairly. It's hard to analyze your own conditioning objectively and find things incongruous about what you were brought up to believe. You mentioned your extended family expected you to be married by 19 for example. That sounds like a good place to start for figuring out why you feel that pressure to jump in so early, and where your values lie.

NewHeart

Thank you. I will watch him. Yes I think I am beating myself up. I say that if life is about love don't I have to be in the two most loving relationships of my life: husband and kids? Otherwise I am living for myself alone and being selfish.

Also since this thread did start out about my AXBF. Something I did like about our relationship is that I felt like a lot of latent aspects of me came out. My love for nature, dancing, dressing up, loving a man and dreaming together. We were together for years. Was that all manipulation on his part to get me to bear his children? It's hard to believe but reading through this thread others are saying he is shady and not a good character so that may be the truth. What do you do with the good in the bad relationship though? I want to know how to process it so I know how to move that forward

trailmix

Well, there is good and bad - or bad-ish, in every relationship, romantic or not. When the bad outweighs the good, that's the time to exit, which you have done. The not good in this relationship is far reaching.

He is well in to his alcoholism. This affects his thinking. His brain doesn't work the same as a non-alcoholic. So when it seems things don't add up - like having the move to Mexico date being pushed back, to the white picket fence dream - he may well want all those things (or thinks he does right now) but you can't take that to heart. What he says and what he is doing are two different things. Actions, not words.

So when you think about the good times, it's always important to temper that with the bad. That might seem like you are "manipulating" your own thoughts. Well, in a way you are. None of us like to dwell on the negative really, well a few really negative people do!

So, someone breaks their leg, gets a cast. People at work rally around to help, picking up lunch, checking in, making sure you are comfortable with the footstool they gave you, making sure you have a ride home, signing your cast. The woman next door brings you an assortment of frozen dinners she made, the man next door brings you some tomatoes from his garden.

When the person thinks back on that, are they going to think about the accident that caused the break? How it was pretty painful for a week, about being unable to do much of anything for weeks, how they couldn't get a good nights sleep? Probably not. While it isn't a fun time, they will remember all those kindnesses they were given. And why not, who wants to dwell on the pain of the broken leg.

So we aren't geared for that, generally. So if you find yourself ruminating on the "good times", you are the one that has to say, hang on, but he was also drunk when he did that and remember the time he didn't remember anything I said the night before etc etc.

He told you, that even if/when you were married having children, living in his country etc that he would be out drinking/having a good time. That alone is horrible. But it's the truth at least. When you think of that though, I'm pretty sure that's not the picture you draw up?

A good idea is to write a list out of all the negatives, just something short and succinct that you can refer to whenever you start going down the good times path. Refer to it 20 times a day or more if that's what it takes. Realize he was not good for you.

I meant to ask you about the above. Did you mean he is only able to drink a couple now before getting drunk, whereas before he could drink many before, seemingly, appearing drunk?

Cookie314

While he does seem shady to me, I don't think your love for those things was manipulation. If you really enjoy those things, some of the excitement for them often comes from sharing that with someone else. It's one of the reasons why it's healthy to have hobbies you enjoy solo, so that it helps you know you can find joy in things you do alone, not just with others.

Also, people aren't all good or bad. I'm sure he had aspects that were quite good, and aspirations that you shared in. The part that makes those unhealthy is when they don't have any clear boundaries, or adhere to the reality of your situations. It's not wrong or unhealthy to want a stable relationship and have children. It tips to being unhealthy when the foundation for that relationship isn't built on mutual trust, honesty, and respect, or when your desire for children overrules feelings that the time and place isn't right. Your ex certainly had issues with addiction and commitment, but that doesn't make him entirely bad, nor does it make you bad for seeing the good parts.

I think it just takes time to sift through your memories and find the parts that were good to look for in new relationships, and bad to watch out for. To find the things that motivated you to actions you later felt weren't right, and see what parts are within your control to change for next time. Or to see thought processes you've had, and if they led to healthy or unhealthy places. No one can truly tell you if something was good or bad, you'll have to decide for yourself when the time is right.