FallenAngelina

It's my experience and that of many recovering alcoholics that therapy/working with a a counselor while drinking is a complete and total waste of time. There's a reason that the first order of business in recovery is sobriety. Without sobriety, there is absolutely no way that anyone with a drinking problem has the mental capacity to work any kind of program, let alone change. I've heard it said many times that "Therapy while drinking is bu**s**t." I have found this very helpful to know about because I have gotten lulled into thinking that things would change for the better if the alcoholic in my life was going to therapy. He meant well, but there is absolutely no way for him to work on himself or work on the relationship with me if he is drinking.

fauxfern

I do wonder if this was the only time, I wonder if he has been keeping this behavior a secret. This is on my mind.

The only caveat is he went out just as businesses were opening. Many places were closed / out of business and the strip bar was, literally, I checked, the next spot on the street where he was that was open. He was on foot and in a part of town that he's not familiar with, so I can see the ease of going there.

However, you are right, the excuse of going to a strip club just for drinks is lame. If you need another drink so bad go back to the bar you just left. Or, call it a night. Or check in with your wife and ask, "are you ok with this?"

fauxfern

Thats a great point @FallenAngelina

He's not drinking. He stopped drinking about two weeks after we had out initial big fight. There were two weekends of fighting, crying, and drinking. Then I said I'd had enough. I told him his job was to focus on his drinking and his depression. I couldn't have any further conversation about our relationship while he was depressed and drinking.

It's been over a month since he stopped drinking and I think he's met with his counselor 3 or 4 times now and he's met with his doctor once. I'm staying out of his business. I only know what he tells me. I'm focusing on me.

I will say that he seems healthier. He made a dentist appointment, got a haircut - these small "self care" things that he wasn't doing when he was drinking.

dandylion

faux.....one of the first parts of the brain that is effected when alcohol hits the blood stream is the frontal lobe of the brain---the part just in front of the forehead. That is where the so called Executive Functions reside---planning, reasoning, judgement---especially judgement (lol).
He was already drunk when he went to the strip club.
I propose that he probably wanted some of both things---more alcohol because he is an alcoholic---AND the titillations that strippers stimulate. Just like porn--strippers can allow him to create a surge of dopamine and serotonin in the pleasure centers in the midbrain.

Fern....I know that you and many others expect an active addict to think like other people who are not addicted to think just like you and other non-addicts. But, they don't because their brains are not "normal" when addiction is active in their brains. The wiring between their frontal lobes and midbrain have been re-wired. I believe that HardLessons spoke about this, also. Those who are alcoholics/addicted, depressed, anxious, insecure about their sexuality, etc. will try to find ways to get surges of the feel-good and sense of well being chemicals--dopamine and serotonin, in particular.

Fern...I have a question, if you don't mind my asking. You don't have to answer....just ignore it if you wish. I am wondering why your line in the sand is about strip clubs, specifically---but not so much the drinking, gambling, or porn preoccupation. Why is a strop club so much worse than drinking at home while watching porn---
After all, being in a strip club is sitting in a chair drinking and watching live porn. Now, I assume that you have your own reasons, I am just wondering what they are, since we are talking so much about the strip clubs.
Personally, I find strip clubs seedy and discusting. because they objectify women and put women in danger. But that is me.

Macyc

I didn’t mean patience isn’t a good thing. Normally it is. In my case with my husband, it’s a curse. Years of this behavior vs my patience, and i mean years of strip clubs plus drinking and much more, patience is beyond sick.

Free2bme888

Hi ff,

I’ve been reading your posts and see it from both sides. As an alcoholic, I know we don’t change for others, and alcohol and that lifestyle wins no matter what the cost, sometimes our own lives after we destroy others’ lives unless we ourselves want to change. Read that again and again if you have to.

Secondly, for me, drinking is a choice, just like smoking. Being addicted to cigarettes is not a disease, it’s a consequence formed from a choice. Nicotine is addictive. So is alcohol. So is porn. We can recover from addiction. If and when we want to.

Of course you are angry. You should be! You were deceived. Dreams shattered. You are angry with him, and yourself. Boundaries help with both of those things.

I echo thoughts by our friends above. Boundaries help us, protect US.

A podcast called Beyond Bitchy is very useful. May be want to check it out on your device? It helped me a lot, to end my relationship with alcoholic ex boyfriend, with much support from friends on this forum.

My thoughts and positive waves are being sent your way, that you have mindful self compassion.

Any loss, of ANYTHING, whether it was good for us or not, is processed by our brains as a loss. Please keep that in mind as your process and feel your valid feelings


F

fauxfern

This is helpful. To be honest I haven't taken this into account. I do expect him to think like a "normal" person even when drinking. Thanks for sharing this, it's helping me learn.

He's said this about his depression, that "it's the depression talking" and he cannot think beyond his clouded view.

You can ask. I appreciate your gentle approach when asking.

First, I'll say I believe sex work is work, it should be legal and sex workers should be paid fairly. Sex work often puts workers in physically and emotionally unsafe conditions and economically disadvantaged positions. I go back and forth on porn, there's more regulation and greater safety, but not completely. I do think it's ok to use material for arousal on occasion. I used to do volunteer work around human trafficking and strip clubs are frequently part of this business.

I had an immediate response to the strip club. It was a line he crossed and I couldn't analyze or "logic" myself out of it. I'm not past it but time and what I've learned here has lessened my anger. I don't want to debate if strip clubs are good or bad, but if you've got insight into helping me look at this from a different perspective I'd be open to it. It is a big sticking point for me. This feels like a betrayal.

Here's how I've broken my reaction down for myself:

Objectifying Women / Sexism - This past year we sat on the couch together watching news about #metoo, sexual harassment, sexualized violence against women, and so on. I felt like we were on the same page in terms of how women are objectified and the impact of sexism. I believe he knows how I feel and I was of the impression he had the same perspective. Going to the strip club made him seem like a completely different man.

Harming Women - He went with a friend who my husband has said "has a problem with women." This friend lives in another state, they see one another about once a year for drinks. I don't understand why he'd take a friend who has issues with women to a strip club. (In front of me this friend would talk about wanting to marry a "passive woman," and looking for "someone who doesn't speak English." I don't know what he says when its just guys. He's late 40's and not married). He's supporting sexism and objectification, it's not just theoretical, it's now his behavior.

He Did Something I Had Asked Him Not To Do - He's mentioned friends who go to strip clubs and in those conversations I've asked him not to go. He's always said he wasn't interested, he doesn't even like strip clubs and never expressed a desire (truly, the strip club vibe doesn't fit his personality or sexuality, not that he doesn't want to see naked women). He knew this was not ok with me and he did it anyway.

Lying/Secret Keeping - He didn't tell me he went, by chance I saw the charge. If I didn't find the charge I'm not sure he would have told me. Now I'm questioning if this has happened before. That lie (or lying by omission) was the first time I lost trust in him. He introduced mistrust into out marriage, he changed our relationship. I trusted him completely and all of a sudden I find a lie, a lie about something significant. He broke my trust for the first time in our 20 year relationship.

Stop escalating behavior - He went from this new degree of porn use to going to a strip club in a couple of weeks time. It felt like he had rapidly escalated this sexualized obsessive behavior. It was like out of control train and I threw a switch. It felt like he was turning into a creep.

Sorry. That's a lot of info to read. Obviously I'm still processing this.

velma929

I think what's missing from understanding alcoholism (It was from mine) is that, at some point, it isn't a choice any more.

It's not surprising that he'd lie about visiting a strip club, since this had already been discussed and you had already defined this rule for him. This wasn't violating a boundary. A boundary defines our own behavior. Telling other people what's allowed and what's not isn't a boundary, it's a rule one person imposes on another.

I understand from your post why you find it troubling. I'm puzzled, I guess why you married to someone whose friends like this sort of thing. I'd consider it a red flag. Somewhere I read (maybe someone else can find a link) that alcoholism often goes hand-in-hand with increased tendency toward sexual deviancy .

Macyc

If two people discuss behaviors they find acceptable in the relationship vs not acceptable, this isn’t a “rule”. It’s a standard. Nothing wrong with those.

fauxfern

To clarify, this specific friend was part of a sports league they played in together. We no longer live in the same state and they see each other maybe once a year. Other friends are also part of sports teams my husband is currently on. Really, it's a random population of men who come together to play sports, you get all kinds of folks. I don't question the character of his close friends.

dandylion

fern.....thank you for explaining your reasoning in such a clear and detailed way. Now, I better understand where you are coming from and why it has had such an impact on you.

a general comment on the lying thing....if you were to read through the thousands of threads on this forum---you would find that the word "lying" is associated with peoples alcoholics thousands and thousands of time. No wonder--as lying undermines the trust in a relationship---and, after all, trust and respect are a vital part of the foundation of relationships. It does seem that lying goes hand in hand with alcoholism--and, other addictions, also.
Alcoholics, in denial, need to lie to themselves about what they are doing---this makes it seem logical (to them) and makes it more o.k. In addition, I thiink that they just don't want to "get caught"---for many reasons---to keep from being labeled as "alcoholic" and to keep certain people "off their backs". They may lie because they know that they are helpless over the alcohol and feel guilty (down deep inside). If they tell the truth to themselves and others---they may have to fact the facts which they may feelthat they are not able or ready to do so.
The compulsion to drink, for the alcoholic is more powerful that you can even imagine. It is like water to a fish, Or, air, to you. It feels like they can't live without it.

It is unrealistic to ask an alcoholic/addict not to lie to you. It goes along with the characteristics of the disease. They don't lie, necessarily to hurt you---they are doing what alcoholics do. Still, it does hurt you, I know.

If this all sounds like "krazy thinking" by the alcoholic---remember the part where the wiring is all messed up in the frontal lobes---the center for planning, reasoning, judgement, etc.

Remember that alcoholism is progressive--meaning that it gets worse over time. Given enough drinking over enough time---the alcohol will erode all aspects of the person---including the spiritual and the usual character and morality of the person.

trailmix

You might find the articles at this site enlightening about addiction, in particular this page:

Addiction, lies and Relationships

"the addict begins to deny the truth to others as well as to himself. He becomes a practiced and profligate liar in all matters related to the defense and preservation of his addiction, even though prior to the onset of his addictive illness, and often still in areas as yet untouched by the addiction, he may be scrupulously honest".

FallenAngelina

There is indeed a big difference between rules and boundaries. Of course there's nothing wrong with rules, but when understanding addiction and relationships in general, good emotional health requires an understanding that our boundaries (AKA values) are not dependent on anyone else, whereas rules are very much other-dependent.

The better I am at internally standing by my boundaries, the less I need to impose rules on others. People only walk all over my boundaries when I am murky inside about them. This is what I am learning in my own program of emotional health: to shift from reacting to others and their "good" or "bad" behavior into being the creator of my world. The clearer and less defensive I am about my own boundaries, the fewer rules I need to have for others. My own clear and solid boundaries set the stage for better interactions with others.

HardLessons

A whole lot more can go on in strip clubs than just for a guy to sit drink and watch. They have VIP type back rooms where for the right amount of money just about any type of service can be had. This is where the women can earn a lot of money. Otherwise they would only be getting like dollar tips while dancing on the main stage.

Above may vary some state to state but in my state if you want more than just to sit & watch, you go with your favorite dancer to the private back room area.

dandylion

HardLessons.......duly noted.

edoering

Your value as a person (how much of a “good person” you are) is not based on how endlessly kind/giving you can be to others.

My AXH’s former sponsor (an amazing man with 30+ years clean and sober) really helped me understand how much addiction is a mental illness. Depression, addiction, bipolar—you’ll hear “chicken and egg” on here a lot because it doesn’t really matter which “came first.” It is not their choice to be born with the brain they are born with, HOWEVER, it is their choice what they do with that brain.

I have chronic, lifelong asthma, and while that wasn’t my choice, how actively and responsibly and consistently I pursue treatment is. Whether or not I take my inhaler is my choice. Whether or not I continue to see doctors is. Etc.

My relationship honestly did not start “codependently,” but regardless, as soon as active addiction came into the picture, it became codependent. My ex-husband also battled serious PTSD, depression, addiction, possible bipolar tendencies, etc. COVID was the year his recovery really fell apart. But I spent waaaay too long trying to understand what he was doing/thinking/feeling and why. Waaay too long trying to figure out who was to “blame” for everything falling apart. Way too long trying to make sure I was being as compassionate and “good” a person as possible no matter how awful he was being or the situation was. No matter how painful for me. Deep down, I think I felt guilty. Guilty that I wasn’t “enough” to keep us both safe and happy.

You are allowed to be angry, whether it’s “reasonable” or not. Anger often tells us when we have treated poorly or in a way that doesn’t align with our own values. It sounds like it’s serving as a wake up call for you right now that you aren’t happy with how much you have moved your boundaries for you partner. The mental illnesses (including addiction) are part of the people we love. We can’t actually separate them, so we can’t separate out which one “caused” our pain. I only started feeling better when I stopped trying to figure him out (because those mental illnesses within sure do like to fight back! Fight for their own survival in our LOs, confuse us, twist reality, etc), and instead focused on rebuilding the kind of life I wanted for myself.

fauxfern

So much of this resonates with me!

Oh my gosh, the guilt! Guilt that I am angry now. Guilt that I "let" him drink knowing he's depressed. Guilt that I drank with him, especially during Covid times. Guilt that I didn't recognize how poorly he was doing. Guilt that I saw him drink and didn't say anything. Guilt that I saw him drink and did say something. What is this guilt about? I hate it.

fauxfern

Thank you all for sharing your insight with me. I've been reading though your responses, many more than once, and reading other threads and links you've referenced. This has been more helpful than you can imagine.

The first thing that I'm working on better understanding is, perhaps being codependent. Maybe? If nothing else, hearing that taking care of myself first, honoring my own boundaries and not feeling guilty (ugh guilt, I struggle with guilt) are positive and appropriate responses. It's so easy to get caught up in checking on how he's doing. I think I'm better about stepping back when he's drinking and not depressed. Once his depression is evident it's much harder for me.

What folks shared about changes in the brain and how at some point drinking is no longer a controllable choice was helpful. Yes, I've been thinking about him as making logical choices. After all, that's what I do. That's even what I do when I'm drinking. I assume he is actively making a choice to open another beer etc. even after I've heard him say that once he starts drinking it's hard to stop. So, right there is something for me to think about.

But there is a place where he is making rational decisions. I've seen him just have a beer or two and leave it at that. He can be in that place for a long time, months to years, without having a period where his drinking is excessive. Where is that line when its no longer a choice?

Again, I so appreciate all you are sharing with me. You've given me so much to think about.

OKRunner

Dandylion, you said, "It is unrealistic to ask an alcoholic/addict not to lie to you. It goes along with the characteristics of the disease. They don't lie, necessarily to hurt you---they are doing what alcoholics do. Still, it does hurt you, I know."

It's funny, because about 8 months ago I remember sending a text to my AXBF after I caught him lying YET AGAIN about why he didn't show up for a date and I was all, "I expect that you'll tell me the truth" and "I expect that you'll do this and that." I never considered or knew how unrealistic what I was saying I wanted was for him. For me, telling the truth is realistic at all times unless I'm dealing with a surprise birthday party or telling someone I don't like their hair cut (which I would never do), or something like that. I just never assumed it would be otherwise for another adult.

I hope he didn't lie to hurt me. I hope he was just doing what alcoholics do - protecting his addiction. But, wow. It hurts -- and many months later even though I've been no contact it still hurts so much. That loss of trust hurts more than just about anything. Like, why wasn't I worthy of him being honest with me?

There was an A/Q who posted I think on the Newcomers to Recovery forum or maybe the Alcoholism forum a while ago. I remember it so well. He said he was sitting there cradling his baby in kind of a break down after telling his wife everything. He told her how he drinks during the day. He told her how he has driven drunk with the baby. He told her everything. And on and on. Not only did I not judge him -- but I remember tearing up with compassion for him and his situation as well as envy of his wife. Like, If my A/Q had just been honest with me, I would have understood. I wouldn't have gotten mad. And I would have been spared so much pain. I am an attorney and I am an expert at dealing with emergencies (of all types, legal, familial, etc.), and severe alcohol use disorder that results in driving drunk with a baby in my mind is an emergency. I could have handled that. What I can't deal with is the lying. I felt that I didn't deserve to be lied to. And when he lied to me, that made me question my worth. That made me question my sanity. That made me question myself. It was awful and still is even though I have thrown myself 100% into Al-Anon, this forum, etc.

It's funny what you take from a relationship and now realize is so important to you going forward. Honesty and trustworthiness are hands down the two highest character traits that I am looking for after this complete and total disaster.

velma929

I suspect every alcoholic fantasizes that he or she can somehow drink like a 'normal' person, an not have to give up alcohol completely. Some can 'white knuckle' it for a while, but if they *don't want to* quit, and quit entirely, completely, forever, nothing will make it happen. Even people who DO quit, relapse. Perhaps someone can enlighten us, but I think MOST relapse.

And yeah, I imagine a lot of people wonder "what it...?" and feel guilty that they didn't do this, that, or the other years before. I think though, until one is immediately affected by the addict and his/her choices, it's possible that one just doesn't 'get it.' It's like becoming widowed. It's not like losing a parent or any other relative. And you don't get it - until it happens to you.