The limits for helping
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 259
The limits for helping
My husband and I have been together for about 8 years, married about 2 1/2. He has always been a heavy drinker, along with his whole family. As with most alcoholics, his drinking progressed to become more dysfunctional as time went on.
His first real attempt to quit was early in lockdown, around May. He had quite a bit to drink over the weekend, and passed out on the floor in a puddle of pee. He tried to stop cold turkey, but the withdrawl pain and depression hit hard enough he called me at work saying he wanted to kill himself. I came home and took him to the hospital. He got some assistance there, but left ama early in the morning.
He managed to stay sober a couple months after that, but slowly yet surely he began again. He has managed a could of times to stay sober for a few weeks or so, but not much longer. We had been searching for a house during this time, and did find one we liked. The move went very smoothly, but the stress combined with the ease of getting alcohol at the new house have led to an increase in "secret" drinking.
I have progressed a lot during this time too. My time with my therapist ended in June, and I haven't found another I like yet, but she helped me a lot with putting my own actions in perspective. Pointing out that staying up late to walk him to the toilet and picking up his vomit, etc, doesn't really help him. Instead it takes his pain, absorbs it into myself, and doesn't let him see the consequences of his actions. I used to try pleading with him to get help, trying to set it up myself, arguing, etc. I'm sure if there were a manual for alcoholic, and spouse to an alcoholic, we would both be checking quite a few boxes.
Lately I've gotten better at detatching emotionally from it (being more zen about it as my mom put it). I tell him I'm not angry with him for when he drinks, nor am I judging him. I tell him when he's done something to hurt my feelings, and how I can generally tell when he's drinking because he's more likely to say hurtful things, etc. I still mess up sometimes and "over help" but generally have gotten better at stepping back. It has helped him open up a little to me as well. He still tries to hide drinking, but will generally answer honestly if asked directly, or talk to me about how he's feeling.
I guess what all this is leading up to is I'm not sure what comes next. He's still early in trying to recover, and hasn't fully dedicated himself to recovery in the way of going to therapy, or a group, or a doctor, etc. Emotionally I feel better and more stable, but I see the hurt and depression in his eyes. He still struggles with suicidal ideation often, and I tell him I'm there to listen and support, but of course he has to reach out for it himself. He says he's searching for a general practitioner, but gets discouraged when they aren't accepting new clients. I feel it would be another case of "over helping" to do the search for him, and have stayed back from it, but feel his despondency and frustration with the whole ordeal.
How do you guys find the right balance between detached love, while knowing when is the correct time to actually help?
His first real attempt to quit was early in lockdown, around May. He had quite a bit to drink over the weekend, and passed out on the floor in a puddle of pee. He tried to stop cold turkey, but the withdrawl pain and depression hit hard enough he called me at work saying he wanted to kill himself. I came home and took him to the hospital. He got some assistance there, but left ama early in the morning.
He managed to stay sober a couple months after that, but slowly yet surely he began again. He has managed a could of times to stay sober for a few weeks or so, but not much longer. We had been searching for a house during this time, and did find one we liked. The move went very smoothly, but the stress combined with the ease of getting alcohol at the new house have led to an increase in "secret" drinking.
I have progressed a lot during this time too. My time with my therapist ended in June, and I haven't found another I like yet, but she helped me a lot with putting my own actions in perspective. Pointing out that staying up late to walk him to the toilet and picking up his vomit, etc, doesn't really help him. Instead it takes his pain, absorbs it into myself, and doesn't let him see the consequences of his actions. I used to try pleading with him to get help, trying to set it up myself, arguing, etc. I'm sure if there were a manual for alcoholic, and spouse to an alcoholic, we would both be checking quite a few boxes.
Lately I've gotten better at detatching emotionally from it (being more zen about it as my mom put it). I tell him I'm not angry with him for when he drinks, nor am I judging him. I tell him when he's done something to hurt my feelings, and how I can generally tell when he's drinking because he's more likely to say hurtful things, etc. I still mess up sometimes and "over help" but generally have gotten better at stepping back. It has helped him open up a little to me as well. He still tries to hide drinking, but will generally answer honestly if asked directly, or talk to me about how he's feeling.
I guess what all this is leading up to is I'm not sure what comes next. He's still early in trying to recover, and hasn't fully dedicated himself to recovery in the way of going to therapy, or a group, or a doctor, etc. Emotionally I feel better and more stable, but I see the hurt and depression in his eyes. He still struggles with suicidal ideation often, and I tell him I'm there to listen and support, but of course he has to reach out for it himself. He says he's searching for a general practitioner, but gets discouraged when they aren't accepting new clients. I feel it would be another case of "over helping" to do the search for him, and have stayed back from it, but feel his despondency and frustration with the whole ordeal.
How do you guys find the right balance between detached love, while knowing when is the correct time to actually help?
Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Chicago
Posts: 5,450
I generally only help when I am directly asked, and that's not limited to alcoholics. I have found everyone is more at peace when I allow other adults with the respect and dignity of taking care of themselves. This of course does not count when someone is acutely ill or recovering from an injury or some such thing. Finding a GP is not something a functioning adult needs help with. Nor is finding an AA meeting or any of the other numerous options for assistance with recovery from an addiction.
When it came to the addicts in my life, however, I found that even when they did ask for my help, it was usually either an effort avoid suffering consequences for their decisions, or so they could have someone to blame when things didn't work out as they hoped. When I asked myself, Should they be able to do this for themselves? the answer was almost always yes.
When it came to the addicts in my life, however, I found that even when they did ask for my help, it was usually either an effort avoid suffering consequences for their decisions, or so they could have someone to blame when things didn't work out as they hoped. When I asked myself, Should they be able to do this for themselves? the answer was almost always yes.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 5
I cannot offer any more thoughts than Sparkle, however, I like Bonnefond wanted to say how much I admire you. I am at the beginning of the journey of some kind of acceptance rather than being the argumentative spouse. The deceit and lies have created a huge wedge between me and my husband and it is somewhat encouraging to think that if I take a step back then we may be able to get to a point where he can again be honest with me. Much love to you and I hope you find the correct balance.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 259
Thanks everyone, I appreciate the support 🤗
I don't have as much advice on detaching as I'd like, since we're both still learning at this. Before shut down, there were still problems with his drinking, but I joined in it too, and had a lot of denial about it. It wasn't really until I was coming home every night to find he'd been drinking while working, and how often he couldn't come up to bed because he was too drunk for the stairs, so he'd pass out on the couch. Or things like he'd bake something, but fall asleep before setting an alarm, and I'd come home to find the oven on but no sense of if it was ready. Him needing to go to the hospital was the ultimate wake up for me. He's had to go to detox as well, but that experience was so abysmal for him that he refuses to even consider it again.
Like I said, I tried pleading with him to get help, we argued, etc. Nothing worked. After his trip to detox, I came to realize that even when I "succeed" and get him to go to help, he just leaves it early. Yeah, his experience there did sound pretty bad, but I don't think it was worse than him wishing he could just die. He has to be the one to see in himself the strength to quit. It finally sent home the "you don't control the alcoholic" message.
I guess what hurts me with detatching more is the fear that he won't eventually seek help. I still feel that desire to pave the way for him so to speak. I tell him I'm there for him and offer to listen and help, but I still question if I'm doing too much or not enough. It's definitely a healthier place than I was even a few months ago, but I suspect I'll always have the capacity to drive myself crazy.
I don't have as much advice on detaching as I'd like, since we're both still learning at this. Before shut down, there were still problems with his drinking, but I joined in it too, and had a lot of denial about it. It wasn't really until I was coming home every night to find he'd been drinking while working, and how often he couldn't come up to bed because he was too drunk for the stairs, so he'd pass out on the couch. Or things like he'd bake something, but fall asleep before setting an alarm, and I'd come home to find the oven on but no sense of if it was ready. Him needing to go to the hospital was the ultimate wake up for me. He's had to go to detox as well, but that experience was so abysmal for him that he refuses to even consider it again.
Like I said, I tried pleading with him to get help, we argued, etc. Nothing worked. After his trip to detox, I came to realize that even when I "succeed" and get him to go to help, he just leaves it early. Yeah, his experience there did sound pretty bad, but I don't think it was worse than him wishing he could just die. He has to be the one to see in himself the strength to quit. It finally sent home the "you don't control the alcoholic" message.
I guess what hurts me with detatching more is the fear that he won't eventually seek help. I still feel that desire to pave the way for him so to speak. I tell him I'm there for him and offer to listen and help, but I still question if I'm doing too much or not enough. It's definitely a healthier place than I was even a few months ago, but I suspect I'll always have the capacity to drive myself crazy.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,620
Originally Posted by Cookie314 
I guess what hurts me with detatching more is the fear that he won't eventually seek help. I still feel that desire to pave the way for him so to speak. I tell him I'm there for him and offer to listen and help, but I still question if I'm doing too much or not enough. It's definitely a healthier place than I was even a few months ago, but I suspect I'll always have the capacity to drive myself crazy.
Well, you two have been together a long time, you have always been there to talk, listen, argue, encourage, clean up the vomit, but he hasn't changed at all? So that fear is probably unfounded of the - If I don't control this he obviously won't then what! Well, really you have zero control as you are starting to realize. At the end of the day he is a grown man and he wants to drink and he will drink until he doesn't want to anymore.
It is in our (and their) best interests to respect those decisions. Otherwise, in many cases, there can be a parent/child relationship there. That can lead to the lying and sneaking and not being willing to talk (although that can happen regardless), but it's always good to look at what dynamic you have.
You are not responsible for his choices and never were. You didn't Cause it, can't Control it and can't Cure it (the 3 c's).
He obviously needs professional help or at the very least, AA. Finding the line between helping and overstepping is hard. Should he be able to find a GP, of course, however, if you are usually the organizer, that may seem insurmountable for him. Most cities have a central number you can contact, or a website, where you can locate doctors that are accepting new patients. You might find that information him for him. What he chooses to do with that is out of your control.
Not sure if you know but there is a book often recommended here - Codependent no more by Melody Beattie, you might find it really helpful.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 1,137
Hi Cookie!
I too am very impressed with how you handle things and how much insight you already have. It's definitely good you're seeing (or were seeing) a therapist too, having some professional support in this difficult situation
My partner is already in recovery and sober (but we both think he suffers from BPD, which affects the relationship in similar ways like an active addict) so things are slightly different here but I can totally relate to the fears you have. They seem incapable of seeing things clearly, of seeing the logical and reasonable thing to do to help themselves and we want to help them "get it" or just put them in a program where we know they will be taken care of and are safe. I say we but I am talking about myself, so apologies if that doesn't reflect your feelings correctly.
One thing I realised over and over again is that alcoholics, as well as people with BPD or NPD for example, usually will refuse to do things if they feel pushed. Even when cognitively they understood that it's necessary to do those things. Like a stubborn dog. The more you pull the leash, the harder they will fight back.
I draw the line of help like this: I tell him about the options he has to seek help or help himself and let him know that if he feels to scared or overwhelmed to reach out to doctors etc I will go with him or we can have a look together.
I don't present him results or make arrangements for him. But if he needs moral support while looking through options I will sit with him when he is searching for those options.
For us that seems to work much better. He feels supported and not left alone (which otherwise was a big reason for him to give up on even seeking help) but he also doesn't feel like decisions are made without him or like his feelings don't matter to me.
I too am very impressed with how you handle things and how much insight you already have. It's definitely good you're seeing (or were seeing) a therapist too, having some professional support in this difficult situation
Originally Posted by Cookie314
I guess what hurts me with detatching more is the fear that he won't eventually seek help. I still feel that desire to pave the way for him so to speak. I tell him I'm there for him and offer to listen and help, but I still question if I'm doing too much or not enough. It's definitely a healthier place than I was even a few months ago, but I suspect I'll always have the capacity to drive myself crazy.
One thing I realised over and over again is that alcoholics, as well as people with BPD or NPD for example, usually will refuse to do things if they feel pushed. Even when cognitively they understood that it's necessary to do those things. Like a stubborn dog. The more you pull the leash, the harder they will fight back.
I draw the line of help like this: I tell him about the options he has to seek help or help himself and let him know that if he feels to scared or overwhelmed to reach out to doctors etc I will go with him or we can have a look together.
I don't present him results or make arrangements for him. But if he needs moral support while looking through options I will sit with him when he is searching for those options.
For us that seems to work much better. He feels supported and not left alone (which otherwise was a big reason for him to give up on even seeking help) but he also doesn't feel like decisions are made without him or like his feelings don't matter to me.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 259
Originally Posted by trailmix
Most cities have a central number you can contact, or a website, where you can locate doctors that are accepting new patients. You might find that information him for him. What he chooses to do with that is out of your control.
Not sure if you know but there is a book often recommended here - Codependent no more by Melody Beattie, you might find it really helpful.
Not sure if you know but there is a book often recommended here - Codependent no more by Melody Beattie, you might find it really helpful.
I have done the linking info as well. I've found a discord group for gamers who are recovering alcoholics, and doctors, etc and sent him the links. I don't think he's followed any of them up, but like you said, it's his choice to do so, or not.
Originally Posted by kevlarsjal2
One thing I realised over and over again is that alcoholics, as well as people with BPD or NPD for example, usually will refuse to do things if they feel pushed. Even when cognitively they understood that it's necessary to do those things. Like a stubborn dog. The more you pull the leash, the harder they will fight back.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,620
Originally Posted by Cookie314
Yes, i have seen that book mentioned several times. I haven't read it yet though.
Yes, this precisely. He is incredibly stubborn. If he feels like he's being forced, he won't do it or if spite. In some ways that helps the zen attitude, because he responds better to being less intrusive.
You know, him responding better to your Zen attitude - I hope that the zen thing is more on your side than having anything to do with him. Looking out for yourself is ok too you know. It's not all about him and a life being centered on his alcoholism will drag you right down, as I'm sure you have read in the forum. Spare time for yourself, you are important too.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 259
Originally Posted by trailmix
I should point out, about the book, it's not because I think you are "codependent" or not, I don't know you and no judgement here! The very title can be off-putting. Even Melody Beattie doesn't like the word. The book just has a lot of information about boundaries in relationships which you might find useful.
I think many people are like that though, who likes to be pushed, not me lol - I will push back. I mean of course I like people's opinions, but I take what I like and leave the rest.
You know, him responding better to your Zen attitude - I hope that the zen thing is more on your side than having anything to do with him. Looking out for yourself is ok too you know. It's not all about him and a life being centered on his alcoholism will drag you right down, as I'm sure you have read in the forum. Spare time for yourself, you are important too.
I think many people are like that though, who likes to be pushed, not me lol - I will push back. I mean of course I like people's opinions, but I take what I like and leave the rest.
You know, him responding better to your Zen attitude - I hope that the zen thing is more on your side than having anything to do with him. Looking out for yourself is ok too you know. It's not all about him and a life being centered on his alcoholism will drag you right down, as I'm sure you have read in the forum. Spare time for yourself, you are important too.
I do tend to get lost in caring for him or other things than myself. I definitely need to take more time for myself, though the zen attitude has definitely helped my own well being as well.
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
