What is and is not okay...
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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ducky.....I am glad to hear that you have reached out for more help....please continue to stay in touch with them as a source of support and help. It helps to know that there are people who have your back and are just a phone call away.
It doesn't sound horrid to say that he is more pleasant when intoxicated---that is just a fact that you are recognizing. There are lots of people like that. Probably m ore than you imagine. Alcohol causes immediate changes in the brain's function---within minutes! Some people become more mellow and docile and some become more rageful and harmful.
LOL---even people who may not be technically, well down the road of alcoholism (not yet, anyways).
I am thinking of two good examples in my own life----my husband's sister in law, and, my own sister. When we would be on the way to their homes for an occassion, my husband woud always say that he hoped that they had a couple of glasses of wine under their belt, by the time we got there. He was right, they were much more pleasant when they had had a couple.
Lol---he used to call these women the "Simpson Sisters"----from the cartoon series, "The Simpsons". Do you remember Homer's two blue haired sisters?
I think that you are accurate in your judgement---that he has anger, and voids, and is damaged and miserable from the inside-out. You can be sue that the reasons for all this started way, way, before you met him, None of it is yur fault. Being sober doesn't give him the right to inflict pain onto you and the kids. He is claiming a right that is not his.
His damage does not mean that you have to be a sacrifice to it. You were not born into this world for that---and, neither were your children.
Did you ever see those short and bent trees that grow near the edge of the ocean or water's edge---in places where the wind is almost constant? The constant beating of the winds stunts them and twists them. I always think of that as an example that the environment, that a living thing is exposed to, does have a great impact.
It doesn't sound horrid to say that he is more pleasant when intoxicated---that is just a fact that you are recognizing. There are lots of people like that. Probably m ore than you imagine. Alcohol causes immediate changes in the brain's function---within minutes! Some people become more mellow and docile and some become more rageful and harmful.
LOL---even people who may not be technically, well down the road of alcoholism (not yet, anyways).
I am thinking of two good examples in my own life----my husband's sister in law, and, my own sister. When we would be on the way to their homes for an occassion, my husband woud always say that he hoped that they had a couple of glasses of wine under their belt, by the time we got there. He was right, they were much more pleasant when they had had a couple.
Lol---he used to call these women the "Simpson Sisters"----from the cartoon series, "The Simpsons". Do you remember Homer's two blue haired sisters?
I think that you are accurate in your judgement---that he has anger, and voids, and is damaged and miserable from the inside-out. You can be sue that the reasons for all this started way, way, before you met him, None of it is yur fault. Being sober doesn't give him the right to inflict pain onto you and the kids. He is claiming a right that is not his.
His damage does not mean that you have to be a sacrifice to it. You were not born into this world for that---and, neither were your children.
Did you ever see those short and bent trees that grow near the edge of the ocean or water's edge---in places where the wind is almost constant? The constant beating of the winds stunts them and twists them. I always think of that as an example that the environment, that a living thing is exposed to, does have a great impact.
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Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,618
Originally Posted by ducky12 
Thank you, I sometimes feel it was easier when he was always intoxicated, that sounds so horrid to say! I truly appreciate everyone’s responses and have also reached out to the anonymous hotline as you’ve suggested. There is just so much anger in him, which of course he denies. He will go days at a time without speaking to me and then look at me and ask if I want to “do it.” He doesn’t want me speaking with his counselor and says she’s great and helping him but it still feels like there are very deep voids there.
He can deny his anger all day long, you know what you know. I think something that can be harmful to us is when we are in a situation that we have been in so long it just becomes "ok" or at the very least, the norm. Whether that's someone that screams at you, puts you down or hits you, those are all the same things. That's why it's often recommended here to separate yourself, physically, from the situation, for a least a week or two so you can get some clarity and lift the FOG (fear, obligation, guilt).
I'm also so glad you reached out to the hotline, that can be really reassuring.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 22
It’s been a couple weeks. We went to counseling and for the first time the therapist really shone a light onto his behavior which was much needed. She made it clear that his anger and accusatory tone leave me either become defensive or just shut down. He committed to working on that. Fast forward a few days, he randomly will look over at me and ask “did you have a drink, your breath smells.” I had not, and then this continues on and off for days. I committed to him I would let him now when I had a drink outside of the home and his presence as we agreed. This past weekend I spent the late afternoons helping my dad move into his new place. After a few hours of manual labor I enjoyed a nice glass of wine with my pops and got the chance to catch up with him and relax a bit sans kids, work, school, etc. when I returned home each night I immediately told my husband I had a glass of wine. Tonight he was very upset and said that he he thought I would only have a drink once and a while not several nights in a row. I replied that I did so out of the Home, away from him, and notified him immediately when I got home. I also reiterated that this was a simple glass of wine with a parent at their home, to which I had to responsibly drive home from. He said he felt this was too much, too many days in a row, and he doesn’t want to smell it on me- for reference I was not chugging whiskey but enjoying one glass of red wine on each of those evenings. I have asked him if the smell of alcohol was a trigger for him in the past and he said no. He said he is fine to smell it on me once and while but not a few days in a row. That said, it didn’t prevent him from making initimate advances on me that would require us breathing all over one another. Confused, I asked him to be clear with his boundaries and I asked if he is asking me to be entirely sober alongside of him. That would be his preference but he said he won’t ask that if me because he fears I will resent him for it. He made several analogies about me wanted to partake in having a substance that very well could kill him, and if he was allergic to peanut butter, I wouldn’t have the occasional sandwich even if it is not his presence knowing my breath later on could send him into an allergic reaction. I get this, I have tried to save his life many a times. However I also want to live a reasonably normal life after all I have given up for him over the years. Am I being too insensitive?
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Join Date: Oct 2013
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He's trying to control you. That's the plain, simple truth.
It's your decision whether to drink or not, but expecting a person who can drink normally to "give up" when they don't drink around me in the first place seems unfair.
I think you should share this episode with your therapist and discuss it there.
It's your decision whether to drink or not, but expecting a person who can drink normally to "give up" when they don't drink around me in the first place seems unfair.
I think you should share this episode with your therapist and discuss it there.
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Chicago
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I am very concerned by how much he focuses on what YOU are doing rather than what HE needs to do.
Ducky, even if you had a drinking problem, it wouldn't be any of his business, nor his responsibility to try to manage it for you, just as his recovery isn't your business or responsibility. I cannot imagine living with someone who was so hell bent on controlling my every action and so determined to make me feel terrible about myself no matter what I say or do. You do not deserve to be treated that way, and if it were me, I would be spending my time and energy figuring out why I behaved as if I believed I did.
Ducky, even if you had a drinking problem, it wouldn't be any of his business, nor his responsibility to try to manage it for you, just as his recovery isn't your business or responsibility. I cannot imagine living with someone who was so hell bent on controlling my every action and so determined to make me feel terrible about myself no matter what I say or do. You do not deserve to be treated that way, and if it were me, I would be spending my time and energy figuring out why I behaved as if I believed I did.
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Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 573
That's manipulation and control, not recovery. To be honest, he sounds like a jerk. I can't imagine treating someone in my household that way. Much less my own spouse. As another poster mentioned, he really needs to take his focus off of controlling you and put it on his recovery.
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Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 133
I'll contribute to this thread and also echo that his actions and words are controlling. This isn't healthy for you nor him. He's deflecting because he's focused on you & what you're doing. It perhaps helps to keep his mind off of what he really should be doing-which is focusing on his recovery instead. Not good.
While you can't control him either, I'd stop sharing things voluntarily because it sends the message that it's okay for him to do this. Not saying you should lie, but you don't need to share everything.
While you can't control him either, I'd stop sharing things voluntarily because it sends the message that it's okay for him to do this. Not saying you should lie, but you don't need to share everything.
Community Greeter
Join Date: Aug 2011
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ducky-------it remains abusive to you. Even if you never ever, in your llife, took another drink of alcohol, anywhere----and, gave him a detailed report of every time you took a crap or a leak---he would still find a way to raise the bar on monitoring you. It sounds, to me, like he has some deep resentment toward you, that he can't drink like he would like to. This is a very common dynamic when a person stops drinking because they feel pushed to do so by someone else. Even if that person is their spouse.
He blames you because he cannot possibly take responsibility on himself. Alcoholics who are not in Genuine recovery are very very poor responsibility takers.
****It often makes it worse for the abused person when they enter couples counseling when any form of abuse is in the picture----even more so when/if the counselor or therapist is not experienced in abuse. In fact, most therapists will not take a couple if they know that abuse is a part of the picture. (overly controlling is abusive!!). In those situations, a counselor will usually recommend individual therapy for the clients.
There are lots of reasons that it often gets worse for the one being abused. Some are this-----the alcoholic/abuser is good at getting the sympathy of the counselor and winding them around their thumb. The abised partner often minimizes the actual abuse in front of the partner and the counselor (intimidated). They are often afraid that the abused will accuse them of being "unfair" and make them look bad in front of the counselor.
The alcoholic/abuser will, sometimes, feel like they are losing control---if the ;counselor seems to sympathize with the abused partner----and, then, will actually increase the abuse, as a result.
I think that ot would be better for you to have individual therapy with a properly trained abuse counselor than couples counseling, at this time.
;Mopreover---he sounds to me like he has very llittle insight. If I am correct about that----that is a bad sign all way around.
He blames you because he cannot possibly take responsibility on himself. Alcoholics who are not in Genuine recovery are very very poor responsibility takers.
****It often makes it worse for the abused person when they enter couples counseling when any form of abuse is in the picture----even more so when/if the counselor or therapist is not experienced in abuse. In fact, most therapists will not take a couple if they know that abuse is a part of the picture. (overly controlling is abusive!!). In those situations, a counselor will usually recommend individual therapy for the clients.
There are lots of reasons that it often gets worse for the one being abused. Some are this-----the alcoholic/abuser is good at getting the sympathy of the counselor and winding them around their thumb. The abised partner often minimizes the actual abuse in front of the partner and the counselor (intimidated). They are often afraid that the abused will accuse them of being "unfair" and make them look bad in front of the counselor.
The alcoholic/abuser will, sometimes, feel like they are losing control---if the ;counselor seems to sympathize with the abused partner----and, then, will actually increase the abuse, as a result.
I think that ot would be better for you to have individual therapy with a properly trained abuse counselor than couples counseling, at this time.
;Mopreover---he sounds to me like he has very llittle insight. If I am correct about that----that is a bad sign all way around.
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Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Blue Ridge Mountains
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Why was there ever an agreement that you would tell him that you had a drink?
This "agreement" is counterproductive, destructive, and ONLY serves the purpose of
him having a reason to verbally and emotionally abuse you. Your therapist should
never have agreed to this and tells me she s not familiar with alcoholism which is
very unfortunate.
I see this agreement as a way to taunt him, like one child telling another, "I got
some candy and you can't have any". He may have asked for this agreement but
a clueless bystander can see that it only serves to engage you two forever in
mind numbing circular logic arguments and verbal/emotional abuse to you.
A boundary I established when my AH was at his worst and I had had enough, was
that we would resolve issues and not argue about them senselessly with no
solution. There is no "solution" that I can see other than you agree not to
drink anymore which is completely unfair to you, or you stop informing him
of something that is none of his business to begin with.
This "agreement" is counterproductive, destructive, and ONLY serves the purpose of
him having a reason to verbally and emotionally abuse you. Your therapist should
never have agreed to this and tells me she s not familiar with alcoholism which is
very unfortunate.
I see this agreement as a way to taunt him, like one child telling another, "I got
some candy and you can't have any". He may have asked for this agreement but
a clueless bystander can see that it only serves to engage you two forever in
mind numbing circular logic arguments and verbal/emotional abuse to you.
A boundary I established when my AH was at his worst and I had had enough, was
that we would resolve issues and not argue about them senselessly with no
solution. There is no "solution" that I can see other than you agree not to
drink anymore which is completely unfair to you, or you stop informing him
of something that is none of his business to begin with.
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Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,618
I very much agree with all the the wisdom you have been given above, so I don't have much to add.
You will never please him. When you don't drink you get accused, when you do you get abusive behaviour from him. You cannot win this, you cannot make it right, there is no solution to this - unless HE changes his behaviour.
If it wasn't this it would be something else, but this is convenient - whether you drink or don't, he gets to control you. And if this fails, he can always pull out the alcoholism card.
This is not normal behaviour.
You will never please him. When you don't drink you get accused, when you do you get abusive behaviour from him. You cannot win this, you cannot make it right, there is no solution to this - unless HE changes his behaviour.
If it wasn't this it would be something else, but this is convenient - whether you drink or don't, he gets to control you. And if this fails, he can always pull out the alcoholism card.
This is not normal behaviour.
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Boston
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"He said he felt this was too much, too many days in a row, and he doesn’t want to smell it on me-"
Well OK then. He can leave! I mean, seriously? Ask him, if he doesn't want to "smell it on you" then what is HE going to do? If his answer is to somehow get YOU to stop doing something then that's not HIM doing anything! That's just him creating a false problem to exert control.
So it always comes back around to what we each as individuals can control in our lives. I find time and time again all I can control is myself, my own reactions, and my own choices. So remember Ducky you have choices you are free to make for yourself and your kids. The past is gone. You are free in this moment. And you don't "owe" this man your peace of mind or your freedom to behave as an adult.
Peace,
B.
Well OK then. He can leave! I mean, seriously? Ask him, if he doesn't want to "smell it on you" then what is HE going to do? If his answer is to somehow get YOU to stop doing something then that's not HIM doing anything! That's just him creating a false problem to exert control.
So it always comes back around to what we each as individuals can control in our lives. I find time and time again all I can control is myself, my own reactions, and my own choices. So remember Ducky you have choices you are free to make for yourself and your kids. The past is gone. You are free in this moment. And you don't "owe" this man your peace of mind or your freedom to behave as an adult.
Peace,
B.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 22
Thank you all, I needed to hear this. We met with our therapist yesterday and I explained what was happening. I do think you are right in that she may not be fully versed in addiction psychology. I shared with her the wisdom and advice I was getting from Alanon and all you kind folks, which is consistent. My husband reacted that I would never get this kind of advice from alanon and she just moved the conversation on. So even though I agreed to have a sober home and not drink in his presence he is now saying even the smell of it on me is a trigger for him. We are talking me having one glass of wine away from him, with family on the weekend. He doesn’t want me coming home and smelling it on me and wants me to be sober for a while and if alcohol wasn’t an issue for me we wouldn’t even be having this discussion. I have tried hard to explain that this is not about the alcohol, this is about one more thing I have to do for him- after I have given up so much and supported him in every way over the past several years. I’m tired of doing things for him. The therapists response was - well you’ve gotten this far- you finally have a sober husband- you’re at the final gate- can you do one more thing to support him to help him maintain his sobriety, even if it for a few months? She said the ball is in my court to decide. I’m frustrated. It always seems to come back to me. I just needed to vent a bit, I am not sure how much more wisdom and advice you all can bestow upon me that haven’t already, I just needed to write this out.
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I would be very frustrated if I were you, too, my friend.
I would also feel a little bit ganged up on by husband and therapist.
It would be nice if either one of them was able to hear you say that you feel like you have done and given enough. Because if YOU feel that way, then you have, and no one gets to argue that point, since they are not you.
I would also feel a little bit ganged up on by husband and therapist.
It would be nice if either one of them was able to hear you say that you feel like you have done and given enough. Because if YOU feel that way, then you have, and no one gets to argue that point, since they are not you.
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,417
I still think this is less about his sobriety and more about his resentment and control issues. This could get better as he gets adjusted and comfortable with sobriety as a new norm, but my impression is that is may also be a deep character issue that his alcohol use was covering ( or not-we only know what you’ve shared about him in sobriety here).
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Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Blue Ridge Mountains
Posts: 816
I don't believe for a moment that he "smells" it on you - that is not logical or
rational. It is a way for him to interrogate and accuse you. Did you mention
to the therapist how he accuses you when you haven't had a drink and continues
the accusation for hours? If you need any more proof, don't drink the next
couple times you go to your parents and see how he treats you.
Bottom line is, what does "come back to you" is how you are going to allow
yourself to be treated, or in your case, tormented, in your own home.
What is the plan for HIM when he feels triggered? Other than
blaming you I mean. That is not recovery, recovery is about self-responsibility
and what/how the person in recovery is choosing to help themselves deal
with triggers. With this logic, you could well expect him to pick some
other behavior of yours and say it is a trigger - it's all to control you.
rational. It is a way for him to interrogate and accuse you. Did you mention
to the therapist how he accuses you when you haven't had a drink and continues
the accusation for hours? If you need any more proof, don't drink the next
couple times you go to your parents and see how he treats you.
Bottom line is, what does "come back to you" is how you are going to allow
yourself to be treated, or in your case, tormented, in your own home.
What is the plan for HIM when he feels triggered? Other than
blaming you I mean. That is not recovery, recovery is about self-responsibility
and what/how the person in recovery is choosing to help themselves deal
with triggers. With this logic, you could well expect him to pick some
other behavior of yours and say it is a trigger - it's all to control you.
Community Greeter
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16,246
ducky...….I can see that you are really frustrated. This is a common situation that the non alcoholic or a victim can find themselves in when in couples counseling. It can make the situation worse for them.
I, also, agree with you that the counselor seems to know nothing about alcoholism.
Sounds lik his resentment of you, on this issue, goes very, very deep. And---I think that he is unlikely to give up the resentment---unless he were to ever get into genuine recovery. Remember that not drinking is not the same as genuine recovery.
If he gave up the bottle because of your urging----then, he sees you as taking away his most dear coping mechanism---the thing that gave him a modicum of inner comfort---the ability to feel "normal".
Of course he is going to resent you, for it. The very thought of you having the very thing that he desires the most in the world (at this time)….while denying him the same thing----that probably makes his blood boil.
I suspect that he will continue his resentment of you until or if he ever gets into genuine recovery.
Even though he is tormenting you on this issue---in reality, it isn't even about you---it is about him doing what alcoholics do.
You are getting hurt in the process, though.
Like mylifeismine said-----it circles back to the 3 Cs.
He is going to be how he is going to be----the question for you will be-----what are you going to do (for you---not him).
Isuggest that you might fare better with individual therapy with a counselor trained in alcoholism. As the same, for him---a licensed alcoholism counselor and constant support for a program such as AA.
ducky----if you have reached what seems like a Bridge Too Far----then, recognize that it IS a Bridge Too Far.
I, also, agree with you that the counselor seems to know nothing about alcoholism.
Sounds lik his resentment of you, on this issue, goes very, very deep. And---I think that he is unlikely to give up the resentment---unless he were to ever get into genuine recovery. Remember that not drinking is not the same as genuine recovery.
If he gave up the bottle because of your urging----then, he sees you as taking away his most dear coping mechanism---the thing that gave him a modicum of inner comfort---the ability to feel "normal".
Of course he is going to resent you, for it. The very thought of you having the very thing that he desires the most in the world (at this time)….while denying him the same thing----that probably makes his blood boil.
I suspect that he will continue his resentment of you until or if he ever gets into genuine recovery.
Even though he is tormenting you on this issue---in reality, it isn't even about you---it is about him doing what alcoholics do.
You are getting hurt in the process, though.
Like mylifeismine said-----it circles back to the 3 Cs.
He is going to be how he is going to be----the question for you will be-----what are you going to do (for you---not him).
Isuggest that you might fare better with individual therapy with a counselor trained in alcoholism. As the same, for him---a licensed alcoholism counselor and constant support for a program such as AA.
ducky----if you have reached what seems like a Bridge Too Far----then, recognize that it IS a Bridge Too Far.
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Originally Posted by ducky12
The therapists response was - well you’ve gotten this far- you finally have a sober husband- you’re at the final gate- can you do one more thing to support him to help him maintain his sobriety, even if it for a few months?
BTW, there is never a final gate - never. This is not an addiction educated therapist.
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Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,618
HIs perspective is skewed, we all see that, you see that, he can't see that, but for the therapist not to be able to see that - that's not ok at all. If you decide to continue couples therapy, I would really hope you find a new one. Individual therapy for you would probably be more beneficial.
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Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Blue Ridge Mountains
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Recovery and sobriety are life- long struggles, sometimes minute by minute,
and there is no final gate. I agree that individual therapy would help you much
more. Your couples therapist is not educated in addiction and that does
both of you a disservice, but especially you Ducky. I am concerned she will
continue to make poor recommendations to both of you because of her
lack of knowledge of addiction, recovery and family dynamics.
Its not unusual for the spouse of a recovering alcoholic to go to individual
counselng and couples counseling. For you right now, individual could
be very helpful, but with a different therapist who is addiction educated.
and there is no final gate. I agree that individual therapy would help you much
more. Your couples therapist is not educated in addiction and that does
both of you a disservice, but especially you Ducky. I am concerned she will
continue to make poor recommendations to both of you because of her
lack of knowledge of addiction, recovery and family dynamics.
Its not unusual for the spouse of a recovering alcoholic to go to individual
counselng and couples counseling. For you right now, individual could
be very helpful, but with a different therapist who is addiction educated.
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