I need to come clean and I need help
 

This past Wednesday my newly sober soon to be EXAW and I arranged for me to pick up the family dog from her apartment. I prepared myself, and arrived and she was standing outside with the dog. We shared a look, one of sadness. I put the dog in the back of the car and she handed me a gift for DD. She started to cry and got frustrated and said, "I miss you", I said I miss you back and I got in the car and she left. It felt horrible at the time, I was bursting with emotions.

Thursday am, I get an email from my lawyer. She has finally gotten a lawyer. In the email it outlined that I had terminated visits 2 months ago because she was engaged in a personal relationship. The letter also stared that she has been sober since Jan 22, which from my personal observations was not true. I had counted 4x slips and those were only when I saw her. And that she be returned to unsupervised visits immediately, and no mention of sobriety monitoring. When I saw this email, I felt sick to my stomach. In my mind, yes I was VERY upset when I discovered her affair, after trying to reconcile since she finished her 30 day program at the end of January of this year. I was overcome with GUILT...was this my motivation....partially yes and also I was so frustrated dealing with my wife because she was pushing me around and for a time I didn't know what to do...that was at the start of April. I called my lawyer and said that I wanted my wife to work directly with her. I laid out a plan that she has 1 month supervised visits, with random testing and when successful, move to unsupervised visits. All this was laid out and she delayed for a month, DD missed my wife's birthday and I was blamed for this too because of my unreasonable demands. Once the birthday was missed my wife contacted the lawyer and agreed to the terms and said yes, she would do it. Then another 3-week gap of no contact and then I get the letter from her lawyer. I fully understand her wishes to get a lawyer, I have no issue with it.

So anyway, Thursday we have a conversation, wife and I. And it resembled more an argument, pointing out each of our sides and neither of us seeing the other person's perspective. My wife's perspective. She is sober, she is making living amends, she did not feel respected in the process and that she misses DD and is in anguish and my reasons for ending her visits were punitive and not based on DD's best interests. My perspective, which when I tried to express it was, that she went to hang up on me: my points were, you haven't been consistently sober, you have been absent, or drunk for 14 months and drunk for years before and ya, the affair, shows me ho I can't trust your word. To this she was infuriated and again, told me that she is sober, everyone knows this, and everyone can see that my actions are without reason.

Then the conversations shifts to the sadness of our marriage ending...and I found myself asking the question, does this have to be over? I go to bed that evening, didn't sleep a wink, thinking of her. Am I the bad guy, was I being so unreasonable??? Next day we meet for coffee. It ends up being a repeat of the phone conversation and then she says she loves me, but because I will never forgive her, we have no hope as a partnership. To this I said, well I have a hard time getting past the stuff from the past. I felt that at one point she said, if I could show her that I could work with her on the DD visits, then she would see that I am trying and maybe we could move on together. I started to get pulled into this line of thinking. What's wrong with me I thought...she is sober, trying and I am being so darn harsh. She said, its not like I am some heroine addict, you know me!!

I went home and was swimming in my own thoughts. I spoke with my lawyer and she is a family law specialist and has many addicted and formerly addicted clients. In all cases she said, that they willingly do sobriety monitoring and many of them have resumed 50/50 custody arrangements. My lawyer, said again, in Canada, the court cares absolutely nothing about affairs, or hurt etc...all they care about is the well-being of the child. And my wife's lawyer's assertion that we back off on supervised visits and monitoring is nothing short of funny.

I wondered if I just got caught up in the moment, wishing for the person I married. I looked at her while we were talking and she seemed so sinciere. But something was missing. she said sorry and shed a few tears, but a part of me wondered if this was her attempt to have me back off on my approach to visitation.

I bet lots of eyes are rolling.

Thanks for reading

No eyes rolling here. But:
I love all kinds of people I wouldn't be married to.

Woorockwell tyodlland-----you are going through the roller coaster experience that alcoholics will put their partners through----and, you are grieving the loss of the secure Norman Rockwell marriage that you wish were---but, isn't. And, you have intense emotions---and, you wonder what is wrong with you??! You are human. These are normal human emotions, for the situation, I think. These emotions are hard--hard---hard, and, they don't go away until you have finished the process and come to acceptance. It is o.k.; to express them. You have that riight. You hurt, and you cry.
Yes, do get "help"----as much as you need. From your friends, and therapist and any where you can find it. Continue to read and learn every day---about alcoholism and the effects on the loved ones.
Thankfully, you have an experienced clear minded lawyer. Follow her advice.
Have you read the recommended books and watched the recommended youtube videosm and read all of the articles from our Friends and Family library?
The library is in the stickies---just above the threads. there are over 100 of them. I wll give you a convenient link to them, below. They are ll written by those who have suffered the kind of pain that you are going through, right now!

https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...c-reading.html

I like your lawyer!

This part of you that is wondering? That is your intuition telling you something is not right here. We should all question it from time to time, especially in cases where we have big emotions about the particular situation.

However, from what you have written, I don't think you are wrong. We can call them "slips" or "relapse" or any other name to pretty it up but the fact is, she was drinking. There is a difference between true recovery and taking breaks from drinking, in my opinion. I'm not saying she is lying perse or even being manipulative, but in her world you are indeed the bad guy, trying to stop her from what she wants.

She's been soberish for what, 4 months, you know the drill, this is just a drop in the bucket. She also, obviously has people she knows and talks to that kindly say. WHAT woodandlost is insisting on testing and supervision and and - why you have been almost sober this whole time, you aren't even allowed to have a few drinks and get tipsy? What is this a jail sentence etc etc (you get my drift).

I see you as trying to protect your Daughter, nothing you have asked for seems unreasonable to me (truly) in fact if it were me I would have been asking for testing before and after visits and supervised for at least a year.

If you are in any doubt about doing the right thing, just remember this all gets sorted out and what does she do? Submit a random test and immediately call you saying she must see DD right now because she misses her so much!! No, she goes MIA for 3 weeks. That's your answer.

Velma: thank you. simply put.

Dandy: Thanks for the link to the stickies. I am reading one such thread right now from a member, a woman who found sobriety and speaks about what she put her family through. I saw a small glimpse of that yesterday, when we were walking yesterday. Saying how sorry she was for all the hurts she caused me. But, boy, don't bring anything up to her, or else she walks 10 feet ahead, not wanting to feel like a piece of &^#% addict. I don't shame her. I simply say things like: when I found used condoms in your bathroom, and you told me to leave, it felt like I meant nothing to you...but maybe she isn't ready for this type of analysis yet. What kept me in the game, over and over and over, was, what if she get's sober, then what. Now that she is soberish, or on the road to recovery, it plays with my mind; and that conversation we had just clouded everything for me.

Trailmix: It is hard to know her not drinking start date, but I would put it at the start or mid april. And yes, I know I slipped. I had almost 1.5 months of low to no contact and I was sad, don't get me wrong, but I was getting better. This has sent me back 1.5 months for sure. I am scared to respond to her lawyer. I know under the surface she is so mad at me. She tells me that I HAVE NO IDEA what it is like to have your daughter ripped from you. YOU HAVE EVERYTHING and I HAVE NOTHING. Then when I say to her...remember 15 months ago when you walked out, continued your affair in front of me and our kid in our home, drank, disappeared, came back, promised sobriety, drank everyday, drove the child drunk, lied, hurt, us....I cant even tell her this...she walks away. And if I get a piece out she says, that sure, some of that happened, and I am taking responsibility, I am making LIVING amends. To who I wonder. Everyone else in her life get's cards and presents...and I got nothing because I am the adversary. UGH.

Honey, you’re being played. She’s LYING about her sober time to get what she wants and blaming you, These are not the actions of someone in real recovery.

Here’s a link to all of your posts...please, PLEASE go back and reread them all before you get manipulated into putting your daughter’s wellbeing at risk as well as your own:

https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...archid=8859795

And these only go back a year...she’s been doing this for at least ten, right?

At this point, it’s your daughter I really worry about. You’re an adult...you’re free to make your own choices. But your daughter is having really horribly dysfunctional behavior modeled for her by you and your wife. She will probably spend much of her life trying to overcome this. It makes me very sad for her.

Please. Read them all. Your words, not strangers’ on a forum. Then ask yourself again if somehow you’re being unreasonable.

woodland----wow. Your wife is still in the thick of alcoholic thinking. In AA they call it "stinking thinkin". It will take a long time of intensely working the AA oprogram to begin to make changes in the kinds of thinking and behaviors that she is doing now. and, that is if she is really intensely working the program. It can be anywhere form 1 to several years to really make the kind of changes that allows her to live a sober life and for you to trust her. I wish that I could say this nicer, but, that would not be being honest with you.
It is very typical for the alcoholic to see themselves as the "victim", even when they are reaping the results of their own actions. They tend to want what they want and, to want it NOW. They seem to think that we can learn to trust them , overnight. they find it very hard to face that they may have hurt us to our core. Self focused in the extreme.
I will say this---you have every right to state, to her, when she is in conversation about her alcoholism and the things that she Wants. You have as much right to your voice and feelings as she does. There is no need to walk on eggshells, around her----as she will need to learn to live life on life's terms, just like everyone else does.
One does not just whip through the 12 Steps in a few short weeks---and, all is suddenly done and dusted! She has a whole lot to learn.
Continue to have your boundaries---in order to protect yourself and your soft, white, tender underbelly. (we all have such underbelly--and, an alcoholic can fill it full of arrows if we let them).

Ariesagain thank you for your points, all of them. Thank you for pointing out my previous posts. I have looked those over a few times before, but will look at them again. There was a lot to be learned from my state of mind then and the wisdom of others on this forum. She has been drinking for 10, however she says only 6...but regardless it has been alcoholism.

Dandy: Thanks again. Can you explain, or tell me if it you have second guessed yourself so much in this process. Or is this denial on my part, or perhaps poor judgement?

Woodland----I am sorry--I have never been married to a practicing alcoholic. My qualifier for being here is a close relative. I did work with alcoholics for a long time---as medical co-ordinator of an alcoholism program for a large HMO (health maintainence organization)---and, I worked for severa years on a psychiatric unit in a community hospital---where I helped treat many alcoholics and worked with other staff that were long-time recovered alcoholics. so--I have seen them in the worst possible conditions and I have seem them after long standing recovery through AA.
From what I can "see" from what you share, are the following possibilities---or, more likely, a combination of several. Grief reaction (normal), some co-dependency tendencies (that covers a lot of territory)...And, possibly, some cultural expectations of men that you might have internalized. Co-dependency is a blanket term that can cover a ton of dynamics. there are a lot of ways that it can be expressed.
and, here is something that I am known to hammer on , a lot----Ignorance. Ignorance of the nature and behavior of alcoholism . One cannot rely on the usual "rules" of relationships, that we are taught by our parents, the schools, church, and the society in general for two kinds off situations---Addictions and Abuse. Those two turn the usual rules all topsy turvy.
that is why I think you should keep reading and learning, Knowledge is power.
There are lots and lots of good videos on co-dependency on youtube.
I am sure that you have read "Co-dependency No More", by now----?

Woodland---I forgot to mention that I went through a very tough break-up, at one time. After an almost 4 yr/ relationship. I was a hot mess! I was as bad as anyone else that you read about. Yes, I was in denial and every other emotion that you can thing of. Eventually, I did heal---and, went on to find and marry the most wonderful husband. But, when I was going through it, I was like little-girl-lost in the woodland.

Dandy: I have co-dep. no more as an audiobook...re-listened to it again the last couple of days. I identify with it a lot. I am also taking the Divorce Rebuilding seminar, based on a book called, rebuilding. It is a pretty in-depth analysis of all the dark aspects of our being.Looks in depth at the victim consciousness and maladaptive behaviours. Easy to do this when things are stable, another thing when I m in a crisis state, which I am now (with my mind racing). The last 2 weeks, I was doing well. I have been really carefully watching myself, my thoughts, my actions....meditating morning and night, working out, staying LOW contact, following through on my requests for visitation. Then I went back to the stove. I thought the stove had cooled off, She was doing better.

Woodland---it sounds like you are taking good measures. Remember, that it is a process and time takes time. Co-dependency traits are given to relapse---as they can be our defense mechanisms against our pain.
A favorite saying of mine-----"Just when things seem to be going well---Here comes Co-dependency, wearing a smile and a Sunday Dress."

I have watched my A brothers do this dance with partners and close family for decades. Without actual recovery the As think that a month of sobriety (not counting that one slip in the middle, c'mon relapse is part of recovery!!!) is some kind of Free Pass to making everyone just behave as if the last 10...20...30 years did not happen!!!

In the same way when they were drinking they could manipulate loved ones and play on everyone's best impulses, once they have slightly cleaned up their act they still manipulate loved ones and play on everyone's best impulses! No real change.

Real recovery is visible to the people that know the A best, needs no explanation or "date stamp" to prove it is real. Recovery is not "everyone knows I'm sober!" Nope. Sober does not equal healthy or recovered. Until they are truly recovered and working on themselves they remain master manipulators.

Keep protecting your child, that is always the leading edge of the next right thing to do. Your legal demands are entirely reasonable. Supervised visits is the minimum before allowing full access. And a sober link plan! Why would she resist that if she's so dang proud of being sober and if a quick blow on the machine was the only thing between her and seeing her DAUGHTER!!! Seriously.
Peace,
B.

A friend in Alanon is going thru the separation part of the divorce with her alcoholic husband. She does not have a supervised setup, and just last week told me about the empty beer cans under his car when she dropped off the kids (approx 10 and 6) for the scheduled visit. From what she says there have been several different girlfriends staying there over the last year or so, routine inattention to the dietary needs of one of the kids, and recently, the other has been foisted off on neighbors to do do the remote schoolwork. My friend is killing herself working 2 jobs, parenting those 2 kids who are great, giving them a stable home and not letting the homework and dietary needs slip. She got no cards or thanks on Mother's day, just a late reminder by text to one of the kids about it that night. She is not the only one I know getting pretty raw and disrespectful treatment because they are trying to do right by their kids. A few of us in my homegroup go around helping out the alanon single moms; fix things and so on- helping others in recovery frees me from fear and frustration on a daily basis.

My suggestion is be very disciplined about the terms of agreement with their mother, not to be punitive- but please don't get yourself stuck in a corner with an unrecovered semi-sober parent making the rules. Boundaries about what you will accept from her would not be out of place eg; cold shoulder or the anger about all the unfair things you're doing means this meeting over, please refer all questions to my lawyer.

Speaking as a codie in recovery, I certainly understand wanting the relationship to be stable and calm but from what I can see, with an addict or at least unrecovered sort-of abstinent one in play, things are stable and calm only when they are getting what they want. As was said to me by my alanon sponsor, if you want to see what someone is really like, tell them No. Prior to getting into recovery, No told to me would get me all kinds of wound up and aggravated. Now with 6yrs of intensive work in Alanon, its just kind of annoying and mostly I can let it go and get on with my business without getting spun up.

The old relationship with her is over, and will never be back. It may be that it never was what you thought it was.

Bernadette and Schnappie99 Thanks so much for the replies. Today, through my divorce recovery group I connected with another member who is a long time recovering codie and has tapped me into a mens alanon group online. Going to attend on Tuesday. I truly need to up my support and recovery. The time for hoping long past its due date. And also long past its due date is the non-stop second guessing of myself, I can always check my thinking with other people if need be. But I can't validate my thinking through her.

This comment really jumped out at me:
The old relationship with her is over, and will never be back. It may be that it never was what you thought it was.
It was one of the things I held onto...maybe things could be salvaged.

wood, I don't mean to say nothing is possible- but you will never get back what you thought you had. It might be you two can have something new- or not. I know addicts & alcoholics in recovery who have stable and loving relationships, sometimes with new spouses sometimes not. But in all cases the dynamic is different. A relationship in recovery is very different than one the one in addiction. One thing thats for sure, holding on to what you used to have, grasping at those tidbits of what used to be, only serves to facilitate you being manipulated- and frankly, holds you in codependency.

Its been about 10 years since things got bad between my wife and I probably most of that included her drinking alcoholically (along with benzo abuse), and 6 since I got into recovery. A lot of my 5th step involved the marriage, and my relationship habits in general. I know we had good times, but things are different now. She is and and has been depressed for years, no apparent interest in spiritual development, emotional recovery or much in the way of self-care but thats her business. The intimacy both physical and emotional that I remember from years ago is effectively gone- we are cordial, respectful, civil and do the mechanics of marriage. That sounds kind of sterile, and it is in a number of ways- but it is a whole heck of a lot better than 7yrs ago when our life together was a disaster of fighting and conflict and upset.

A significant part of recovery for me is letting go of the relationship expectations and preferences, and focus on love as service (which I started learning from the AA 12-and-12) instead of gratification. We have a daughter in play, my goal is to show her an imperfect but working marriage. My mother is a binging alcohol abuser, her father committed alcoholism related suicide. I wish to do better. If I have any choice in the matter I will not be involved with active addiction nor will I let our daughter be stuck in it. My boundary is that if my wife went back to drinking and the bad stuff, that I file for divorce, right there, right then- no going back, no 2nd chances- over except for the negotiations. In a relationship with an addict, what real 2nd chance is there instead of more of the same old stuff just with new promises broken just as quickly as the last ones? The Big Reveal we had 6yrs ago was enough, Alanon shows me I do not have to go back into that darkness.

Wow, I just read this reply...Just on my way to work. Going to read this a few more times before I can reply. Thank you so much.

You deserve more.

I like your attorney.The legal stuff is for the child. Go, get counseling for the grief stuff you are handling.

Sending you a hug. I know it's so hard.

Hey All,

I have re-doubled my efforts in Al-Anon again. I have met a great man, who is going to be my sponsor. He is so dedicated to service and is inspiring to me and I am facing this recovery head on. I have no choice. I am truly powerless over this disease. I read the step one again in the "Al-Anon Works" blue book. In those 2 pages, of step one, there is so much to density. I actually never really got it. I am powerless, every part of me was either resisting, controlling, manipulating, fearing, etc....I was trying to fight this battle and I CAN'T! Even still as of yesterday, I was not admitting this. I have been waiting 3-days to give my lawyer the green light to send a response to EXRW because I knew when she got the response she would hate me. She will hate me because I had to make the list of concerns and incidents to explain why accountibility is required. She said, if I have to read this stuff again, then I will likely hate you. So there I was, humming and hawing, trying to control an outcome...prevent her hate for me, or put some accountibility in place...I chose for the accountibility. At least this will help get visits happening and we can all start on our own paths. My realization was this. I can't control any of this. I love this woman, and hate that our relationship is nothing but rubble now, me stopping this will help protect my daughter and it will allow the visits to take place in a safe way. It takes me out of the picture. Working on a higher power now. Like my sponsor said to me, better get on your knees and pray.

Oh wow Woodland, It sounds like you are figuring it out. Ugh. I am so sorry it is this way and so impressed with what you are doing.